Why We Need a Savior

44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
Sup, silas? Yes, I am a Christian. Do you understand the core of the scripture I quoted, Silas?
 
-James- said:
Sup, silas? Yes, I am a Christian. Do you understand the core of the scripture I quoted, Silas?
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Glad to hear that you know the Lord, bro! Yeah, I understand what was being said. Are you new to the site?
 
Silas said:
Glad to hear that you know the Lord, bro! Yeah, I understand what was being said. Are you new to the site?
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No, My old usr name was Cage; we've spoken before. I want to point something out, silas. you said this, "What scriptures do you have to affairm that God loves everyone and can you find one scripture where Jesus, the disciples, or the apostles went around telling sinner's of God's love for them?"

If we are to love our enemies, and if God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." and we are to be "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" Then this suggests to me that God loves both sinner and saint, just and unjust,and that his Love is perfect.

What is your take, man? We seem to be thinking two different things.


James
 
-James- said:
No, My old usr name was Cage; we've spoken before. I want to point something out, silas. you said this, "What scriptures do you have to affairm that God loves everyone and can you find one scripture where Jesus, the disciples, or the apostles went around telling sinner's of God's love for them?"

If we are to love our enemies, and if God "maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." and we are to be "perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect" Then this suggests to me that God loves both sinner and saint, just and unjust,and that his Love is perfect.

What is your take, man? We seem to be thinking two different things.


James
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Cage! What up? Why did you change your name homey? I do remember some of our covos. About what you say here though. I'll try to explain like this: First, just because God tells us to do something, does not mean that God himself is bound by that law. For instance, we see Jesus healing a man on the Sabbath and the Jews saying, "you broke the law." What was Jesus' reply? "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. Therefore, the Son of man is Lord over the Sabbath." So you see, though God tells us to follow a cetain law, he himself is not bound to that law. Indeed, He is bound to no law, but is altogether Sovereign. Secondly, the reason that God commands us to love our enemies is for us to reflect His love towards us. "While we were yet DEAD in sins, God showed His love by having Christ die for us." He is glorified in this, you see. Third, I do agree that God loves everyone, but I also affairm that His love for the saved is different than the general sort of love that God has for the eternally damned. To the saved, God says "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all you iniquities" (Amos 2:3), and "I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you" (Jer 31:3).
 
I think his love for the "Saved" is simply experienced at a different level by the individual, Silas. God's love is ever present, unchaging and available to all. The truth of it is that we experience his love in as much as we allow it to manifest within. Some people haven't the heart to hear, or the eyes to see that God's spirit is what saves. Christs message, his word, his "Spirit" does the work when accepted, and embraced, and allowed to mature inside one's self. Christ made the sacrifice, fully embraced God's will, and showed us the truth, the life, and the light of God. "Love"

To me, Jesus was more than a man, he was Love in the flesh. He was the annointed one, the son of God, and our savior. His spirit is for all to embrace, and I'll firmly stand against the idea that mere intellectual knowledge of the man Jesus is what saves; it is his spirit that matters, and that spirit is made available to all peoples, Imo.


James
 
Silas said:
What does a Christian growing from Glory to Glory look like?

It looks like a person wrestling with sin and making war on oneself. It looks like a patiently kind and loving person. It looks like a life dedicated to God; aiming to be close to Him and falling short of his glory. It looks like Romans 6 and Romans 7: There is a valiantly strong and wretchedly weak warrior dichotomy going on. It looks like joy and pain. A joy of knowing your sins are forgiven, and pain of indwelling sin still left in the flesh, and groaning from redemption. It looks like good deeds being done is secret and done to God's glory. It looks like hatred for sin and a passion for God's glory done. It looks like indignation for those who would transgress God's laws and teach others to do the same. It looks like Jesus flipping over tables and Steven being stoned for the truth. It looks like Paul being hungry and poor for the sake of giving the gospel to God's lost sheep, and Peter teaching and exhorting believers to press on to maturity. It looks like hating this world and loving the lost of the world. It looks like sorrow and pain: Sorrow for those who are living lost, and pain that some will remain lost. And so we anticipate the day when Christ will dry our eyes. It looks like a fight and serious war. And so we press on to the kingdom, trying valiantly to take it by violence! It looks like John Piper and not Benny Hinn. Chargles Surgeon and not Joel Olsteen. John McAurthor and not Creflo Dollar. It looks like King David and not M. Ghandi. Mary Magdalene and not Mother Teresa. Do you see the difference? It looks like worthless sinners being changed from being selfish, self absorbed, and elf sufficient, to being selfless to the glory of God. Instead of doing good just because it is right to do so and doing it to show love to man, it is doing good to God's glory. Do you see the difference? It is harlots versus nurses, again Mary Magdalene, verses Mother Teresa. Do you see the difference? It is being unseen and unknown of men and known to God. In everything, it is God-centered and Christ exsulting.
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OK, thank you for the reply. A couple of questions, just to clarify.

You are saying that Jesus said we are to use violence to "take" the KOG? Where is that in the Bible?

Also, you are saying that Mother Teresa is a harlot and not a Christian?
 
lunamoth


OK, thank you for the reply. A couple of questions, just to clarify.
You are saying that Jesus said we are to use violence to "take" the KOG? Where is that in the Bible?

Its in Matt 11:12. This statement is capable of two interpretations. First, the foes of the kingdom did their best to take the kingdom in order to destroy it. Their rejection of John foreshadowed the rejection of the King Himself and thus of the kingdom. But it may also mean that those who were ready for the King's advent responded vigorously to the announcement and strained every muscle to enter. This is the meaning in Luke 16:16: "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and every one is pressing into it." Here the kingdom is pictured as a besieged city, with all classes of men hammering at it from the outside, trying to get in. A certain spiritual violence is necessary.

Also, you are saying that Mother Teresa is a harlot and not a Christian?

LOL! No, not at all! I was trying to show the difference between someone that the world would love, like a mother Teresa, who does good works because she genuinely loves people, with someone like Mary, whom some say was a harlot (I dont know if its true), and who did good works primarilly because she loved God before people. Did Mary love people too? Of course she did. But, the difference in the Christian is the Godcentered and Christ exsulting nature. It is not mearly seen in good works. Everyone does that (as I tried to show)! But, not everyone does good to God's glory and because they have God in mind first. To drive this "nutty" point home, I'll give the following example.

Suppose there was an atheist who after being robbed and beaten up by a theif who stole his car and left him to die, later gave that guy a kidney because he got into an accident. Most people would say that he did a good thing. I would too, incidentally. But, God wouldnt. God calls it sin. Rough, right? Well, God says that whatever we do, we ought to do it to His glory and in faith in Christ, else it is wortless before Him. It may be something great in man's eyes. But, it is not man whom we'll have to give an account for, but God. It is God who wakes us up on mornings, gives us breath, and sustians our lives. To deny Him is wicked in His eyes; especially since it is because of him we do anything at all. You see the radically "crazy" difference between worldy good and what God calls good? Thats what I meant in what I said.
 
Silas said:
luna asked:You are saying that Jesus said we are to use violence to "take" the KOG? Where is that in the Bible?

Its in Matt 11:12. This statement is capable of two interpretations. First, the foes of the kingdom did their best to take the kingdom in order to destroy it. Their rejection of John foreshadowed the rejection of the King Himself and thus of the kingdom. But it may also mean that those who were ready for the King's advent responded vigorously to the announcement and strained every muscle to enter. This is the meaning in Luke 16:16: "The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and every one is pressing into it." Here the kingdom is pictured as a besieged city, with all classes of men hammering at it from the outside, trying to get in. A certain spiritual violence is necessary.
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It seems like a stretch in interpretation to say that Matt 11:12 supports the use of violence to "take" the KOG. It says that KOH/G has been subjected to violence by those who oppose it.

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, [d] and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear. (Matt 11)
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I don't see where we are called to "spiritual violence." Of course there are passages which suggest that we are not to use violence. ("Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt 26:52); blessed are the peacemakers (Matt 5:9)).


Silas said:
luna asked: Also, you are saying that Mother Teresa is a harlot and not a Christian?

LOL! No, not at all! I was trying to show the difference between someone that the world would love, like a mother Teresa, who does good works because she genuinely loves people, with someone like Mary, whom some say was a harlot (I dont know if its true), and who did good works primarilly because she loved God before people. Did Mary love people too? Of course she did. But, the difference in the Christian is the Godcentered and Christ exsulting nature. It is not mearly seen in good works. Everyone does that (as I tried to show)! But, not everyone does good to God's glory and because they have God in mind first. To drive this "nutty" point home, I'll give the following example.
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Well, I'm really confused over who you are saying is a Christian here and who is not. You said in your earlier post " (giving glory to God looks like...) Mary M, not Mthr. Teresa." Mary M was a follower of Christ, Mthr. Teresa a follower of Christ...I don't understand what you are saying. Apparently you think that only one of these two women did good things because they love God, which one?

Silas said:
Suppose there was an atheist who after being robbed and beaten up by a theif who stole his car and left him to die, later gave that guy a kidney because he got into an accident. Most people would say that he did a good thing. I would too, incidentally. But, God wouldnt. God calls it sin. Rough, right? Well, God says that whatever we do, we ought to do it to His glory and in faith in Christ, else it is wortless before Him. It may be something great in man's eyes. But, it is not man whom we'll have to give an account for, but God. It is God who wakes us up on mornings, gives us breath, and sustians our lives. To deny Him is wicked in His eyes; especially since it is because of him we do anything at all. You see the radically "crazy" difference between worldy good and what God calls good? Thats what I meant in what I said.
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[/quote]

I don't get it. You judge it good, you judge that God judges it's sin. And, how do you know what God will judge?

How did sin enter the world? By our knowledge of good and evil. How do we get back to the garden? Do not judge.
 
lunamoth

It seems like a stretch in interpretation to say that Matt 11:12 supports the use of violence to "take" the KOG. It says that KOH/G has been subjected to violence by those who oppose it. I don't see where we are called to "spiritual violence." Of course there are passages which suggest that we are not to use violence. ("Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt 26:52); blessed are the peacemakers (Matt 5:9)).

Spiritual violence means making war with indwelling sin. Like John Owen said, "be killing sin or sin will be killing you." This is basically Christian jargon for saying "mortify the flesh." That is what is meant by spiritual violence.

Well, I'm really confused over who you are saying is a Christian here and who is not. You said in your earlier post " (giving glory to God looks like...) Mary M, not Mthr. Teresa." Mary M was a follower of Christ, Mthr. Teresa a follower of Christ...I don't understand what you are saying. Apparently you think that only one of these two women did good things because they love God, which one?

Mother Terresa was a nice Catholic lady who believed that Mary (Jesus' mother) was a mediator between man and God. Mother Teresa's beliefs werent Christian, they were catholic and some kind of universal religion. I used her name on purpose because I know the world would consider her and her works as good. What I tried to show was the difference of worldy good in contrast to godly good (what God accepts as good). Mother Teresa and Mary M both did good works; albeit, everyone does good at one time or another. Yet, unlike Mother Teresa and the vast majority of the world, the Christian, of whom I contrasted Mary M as an example, did her good works in faith (true faith) in Christ and did it to the glory of God. As a result, Mary M's good work are seen as good in God's sight, as apposed to the nice and kind hearted work done by Mother Teresa who's work werent done to the glory of God because her faith wasnt in the Christ of scripture.

I don't get it. You judge it good, you judge that God judges it's sin. And, how do you know what God will judge?

I know from Scripture. You know...those 66 books that were penned by 40 different guys over some thousands of years, and written from outside our time domine, and which later by God's providence, were cannonized into one big book (usually black) for our instruction and learning.

How did sin enter the world?

Our federal head, sinned and his sin became our own.

How do we get back to the garden?

Take a right at the cross and go through Repentence and Faith.

Do not judge.

Do not misunderstand scriputure.
 
Silas said:
lunamoth

It seems like a stretch in interpretation to say that Matt 11:12 supports the use of violence to "take" the KOG. It says that KOH/G has been subjected to violence by those who oppose it. I don't see where we are called to "spiritual violence." Of course there are passages which suggest that we are not to use violence. ("Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt 26:52); blessed are the peacemakers (Matt 5:9)).

Spiritual violence means making war with indwelling sin. Like John Owen said, "be killing sin or sin will be killing you." This is basically Christian jargon for saying "mortify the flesh." That is what is meant by spiritual violence.
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OK, so not actual violence, but overcoming our sins.

Well, I'm really confused over who you are saying is a Christian here and who is not. You said in your earlier post " (giving glory to God looks like...) Mary M, not Mthr. Teresa." Mary M was a follower of Christ, Mthr. Teresa a follower of Christ...I don't understand what you are saying. Apparently you think that only one of these two women did good things because they love God, which one?

Mother Terresa was a nice Catholic lady who believed that Mary (Jesus' mother) was a mediator between man and God. Mother Teresa's beliefs werent Christian, they were catholic and some kind of universal religion. I used her name on purpose because I know the world would consider her and her works as good. What I tried to show was the difference of worldy good in contrast to godly good (what God accepts as good). Mother Teresa and Mary M both did good works; albeit, everyone does good at one time or another. Yet, unlike Mother Teresa and the vast majority of the world, the Christian, of whom I contrasted Mary M as an example, did her good works in faith (true faith) in Christ and did it to the glory of God. As a result, Mary M's good work are seen as good in God's sight, as apposed to the nice and kind hearted work done by Mother Teresa who's work werent done to the glory of God because her faith wasnt in the Christ of scripture.
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OK, lots of words to say that Mother Teresa is not a Christian, Mary M. is. That's what I thought you said...but I just wanted to be sure I understood you correctly.

I don't get it. You judge it good, you judge that God judges it's sin. And, how do you know what God will judge?

I know from Scripture. You know...those 66 books that were penned by 40 different guys over some thousands of years, and written from outside our time domine, and which later by God's providence, were cannonized into one big book (usually black) for our instruction and learning.
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The one cannonized by the Catholic Church because it represented the heart of their Tradition?

How did sin enter the world?

Our federal head, sinned and his sin became our own.
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Sin is not inherited; propensity to sin is our fallen nature and inevitable in a world in which we must think to survive.
How do we get back to the garden?

Take a right at the cross and go through Repentence and Faith.
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Lol! That's another way of saying it. Trust God.

Do not judge.

Do not misunderstand scriputure.
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Upon whose authority do you base your understanding of scripture?
 
lunamoth

OK, so not actual violence, but overcoming our sins.

LOL! Yeah. If I knew you were going to take that wrong, I'd have used more common vanicular.

OK, lots of words to say that Mother Teresa is not a Christian, Mary M. is. That's what I thought you said...but I just wanted to be sure I understood you correctly.

K. Thanks for being so willing to hear me out!

The one cannonized by the Catholic Church because it represented the heart of their Tradition?

Nope. The Apocrypha is evil! Nah, just kiddin'! Well, not really. The Catholic Bible has more than 66 books.

Sin is not inherited; propensity to sin is our fallen nature and inevitable in a world in which we must think to survive. Lol! That's another way of saying it. Trust God.

Sorry, I dont understand you hear, bud. According to scripture, sin is inherited. We sin because by very nature we are sinners.

Upon whose authority do you base your understanding of scripture?

Is this like a trick question? If so, I'll bite :)D).<--- that means I bite! Upon the authority that Christ gave the church and following in the examples of saints, as set for in scripture, and that of the Christians throughout the ages, I base my understanding.
 
"There is always the danger that we may just do the work for the sake of the work. This is where the respect and the love and the devotion come in - that we do it to God, to Christ, and that's why we try to do it as beautifully as possible."

(Mother Teresa)
 
Silas said:
Is this like a trick question? If so, I'll bite :)D).<--- that means I bite! Upon the authority that Christ gave the church and following in the examples of saints, as set for in scripture, and that of the Christians throughout the ages, I base my understanding.[/COLOR]
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No trick. Just trying to understand.

Who is the church?
 
InLove said:
"There is always the danger that we may just do the work for the sake of the work. This is where the respect and the love and the devotion come in - that we do it to God, to Christ, and that's why we try to do it as beautifully as possible."

(Mother Teresa)
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Thank you InLove. There are few finer examples of Christian love than Mother Teresa. :)
 
InLove said:
"There is always the danger that we may just do the work for the sake of the work. This is where the respect and the love and the devotion come in - that we do it to God, to Christ, and that's why we try to do it as beautifully as possible."

(Mother Teresa)
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That's a great quote, Inlove! It really accentuates a point I made in one of my posts, namely that we say we do things to God's glory. Yet, when we look at Mother Teresa's beliefs, we see that it wasnt Christian, but instead some sort of mixture between Catholism and Universalism. Hence, the conclussion of my post were: Since mother Teresa's Christ was different from that of the Bible, her works werent done in true faith and her works were not done to God's glory; though she may have assumed they were.
 
lunamoth said:
No trick. Just trying to understand.

Who is the church?
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The Chruch is a body of believers in Christ. They're called many names in scriptures, e.g., believers, Chruch, Chrisitans, elect, beloved, etc.
 
Silas said:
The Chruch is a body of believers in Christ. They're called many names in scriptures, e.g., believers, Chruch, Chrisitans, elect, beloved, etc.
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OK, then do I understand correctly that you believe that you are a believer, and a member of the Body? So, anything you think about the Bible is correct interpretation. God has given you this authority. Anyone who disagrees with your interpretation is, consequently, not a believer?

How did you get to be a believer?
 
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