Why We Need a Savior

[Silas]

Let's back up a minute for your benefit.

Christ taught forgiveness, mercy and love.

So far, so good.

Now, what is "unmerited and undeserved favor" if not "mercy, forgiveness and love?" I submit they are one and the same.

We are to forgive if we expect forgiveness, for there is no forgiveness for those who cannot forgive.

We are to be merciful if we expect to receive mercy, for there is no mercy for the unmerciful.

We are to be loving if we can ever hope to receive G-d's most precious gift of love, for no such love can be received by a heart filled with hatred.

This is all Biblical, all New Testament, Jesus' own words supported by both Paul and James.

I see that you missed the point, so I repeat:

"Yes Jesus did teach that. But, he didnt teach that forgivenss, mercy, and love would get people saved from God's wrath. He taught Repentance and Faith. In fact, He, like all of God's people, commanded it."

You fail to see that God's favor, i.e., His mercy, grace, and love, is conditioned on those who repent and have saving faith in Christ. Now, whether God gives faith to those He intends to save and thus show mercy on, is a different story altogether and not the subject at hand. The subject at hand is what Jesus taught. You say He taught love, mercy, and grace. I agree. I say again, however, that in context of salvation, Jesus didnt teach that, but instead Repentence and Faith.

 

[juantoo3]

I see that you missed the point,

With all due respect, I don't think it is I who is missing the point.

The subject at hand is what Jesus taught. You say He taught love, mercy, and grace. I agree. I say again, however, that in context of salvation, Jesus didnt teach that, but instead Repentence and Faith.

Yet, which one of us rails on about how we are saved by grace, that our works are as menstruation rags? Salvation and saved are the same essence, the same subject matter. I submit this very "grace" (unmerited and undeserved favor) is composed of forgiveness, mercy and love...both emanating from us and coming to us...we must be open to receive G-d's gift of grace in order to be saved. Christ taught this concerning salvation specifically. Your denial notwithstanding.

 

[Dor]

Without Faith you have nothing......here go read everyone....

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 3: 16-18
Eph. 2:8,9
Romans 1:16
Acts 15:9, 11
Romans 10:9, 10
1 Cor. 15:2-6
Ephesians 2:1-5
Titus 2:11-15
2 Peter 1:1
1 John 2:25-27
1 John 5:10-13
Jude 1-4

Let me know if you need more.

 

[Silas]

With all due respect, I don't think it is I who is missing the point.

Yet, which one of us rails on about how we are saved by grace, that our works are as menstruation rags? Salvation and saved are the same essence, the same subject matter. I submit this very "grace" (unmerited and undeserved favor) is composed of forgiveness, mercy and love...both emanating from us and coming to us...we must be open to receive G-d's gift of grace in order to be saved. Christ taught this concerning salvation specifically. Your denial notwithstanding.

Err? I dont even know how to respond, bud. I dont know how else to say that when speaking of salvation, Jesus taught repentance and faith, not mercy and grace. I mean, you dont see one instance where Jesus, or any of the disciples went around saying "Jesus loves you. Come to Him and fulfill your life." Nah, you actually see, "Repent! The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the gospel." This isnt rocket science Josh! I mean, this is like ABC. You should get this. Look at Dor's post for more on human responsiblity, namely faith (believing upon Christ).

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Thank you for your unwavering support!

Without Faith you have nothing......here go read everyone....
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.

John 3: 16-18
Eph. 2:8,9
Romans 1:16
Acts 15:9, 11
Romans 10:9, 10
1 Cor. 15:2-6
Ephesians 2:1-5
Titus 2:11-15
2 Peter 1:1
1 John 2:25-27
1 John 5:10-13
Jude 1-4

Let me know if you need more.

Thanks, but that should be sufficient. I was thinking about adding from the three synoptic gospels where Jesus taught "forgive that ye may be forgiven" and how Paul (Romans I think?) and James back that up, but this will do nicely...even if I agree with James that the justified man is the working man, that I will show my faith by my *"filthy"* works.

 

[Dor]

even if I agree with James that the justified man is the working man, that I will show my faith by my *"filthy"* works.

Thats where knowing the definitions of things comes into play.
Justification is an instantaneous occurrence with the result being eternal life. It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and is received by faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9). No works are necessary whatsoever to obtain justification. Otherwise, it is not a gift (Rom. 6:23). Therefore, we are justified by faith (Romans 5:1).

Sanctification, on the other hand, involves the work of the person. But it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified (Phil. 2:13). Sanctification is not instantaneous because it is not the work of God alone. The justified person is actively involved in submitting to God's will, resisting sin, seeking holiness, and working to be more godly (Gal. 5:22-23).


So works done for justification are as filthy rags.....works down toward santification are glorious and will be rewarded.

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

So works done for justification are as filthy rags.....works down toward santification are glorious and will be rewarded.

Very good! I agree with this, but it is seldom I hear the distinction laid out. More often, I hear that all works are of no value. Whereas, the works of a person like Mother Theresa who was already justified are glorious sanctification for G-d's honor, therefore she is rewarded with her treasures stored in heaven on her behalf.

 

[wil]

Without Faith you have nothing....

Peter, first desciple called...faith.

 

[Dor]

Kindest Regards, Dor!

Very good! I agree with this, but it is seldom I hear the distinction laid out. More often, I hear that all works are of no value. Whereas, the works of a person like Mother Theresa who was already justified are glorious sanctification for G-d's honor, therefore she is rewarded with her treasures stored in heaven on her behalf.

I agree 100% as long as she was doing them to be like Christ and not for Salvation or to make up for sin.

 

[flowperson]

Labyrinths of Biblical justifications aside...you see someone who needs help, and you help them because Jesus unconditionally did that ? Yes, I can wholly identify with that as long as the sacrifices made in the helping are those made by free will choices and not due to physical, mental, or emotional coercion or torture.

IMHO, such distinctions must always be made since we are all so different in our individual make up. And believe me, this sort of thing happens every day and I see it before me.

This is the way in which true compassion usually operates, and it is not normally made in a way to be a public thing. If it is, it is usually some form of playacting towards a public purpose, and eventually transforms into dross. In this way, any one or gathering of us may choose to be saviors.

flow....

 

[Dor]

Labyrinths of Biblical justifications aside...you see someone who needs help, and you help them because Jesus unconditionally did that ? Yes, I can wholly identify with that as long as the sacrifices made in the helping are those made by free will choices and not due to physical, mental, or emotional coercion or torture.

IMHO, such distinctions must always be made since we are all so different in our individual make up. And believe me, this sort of thing happens every day and I see it before me.

This is the way in which true compassion usually operates, and it is not normally made in a way to be a public thing. If it is, it is usually some form of playacting towards a public purpose, and eventually transforms into dross. In this way, any one or gathering of us may choose to be saviors.

flow....

You know the only difference I really see is the way we do it.
Where some say look at that good dead I did for Joe Schmoo over there.
I do not want the glory I give it all to God. He made sure the person I helped was there and gave me what I needed to help him at the time and the want to.

 

[flowperson]

Right on brother Dor ! That's totally the way I see it also.

But under your scenario, does free will determine the deed, or do you see it as something willed to be done by some almighty power ? I always arrive at these situations having experienced some of both since, IMHO, we were all designed to choose.

flow....

 

[Silas]

I'm stitting here thinking of how to give you a glimpse of God's holiness by purposely using seemingly "small" or seemingly "insignificant" scripture. I came up with the following:

"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." (Rom 14:23)

To a Perfect and Holy God, who's thoughts aren't like our thoughts and ways not like our ways; but instead infinitely higher, our doubt is an offense to Him. "Without faith it is impossible to please God."-Hebrews 11:6.

"So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1Cor 10:31)

God's Glory is bound up in the full satisfaction of His creatures, whereby He gets all the glory and they all the joy, which is the best of both worlds. Man's cheif end is to glory God (Isa 43:1-7) and to Know and enjoy Him forever (John 17:3).

"We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away." (Isa 64:6)

Which of us can say that we are good when compared to what God calls good, namely, Jesus? Jesus never once broke any of God's law. Sin is trasgrettion of God's Laws (the Ten Commandments), and we've all broken them. Like Christ, we have all done some good. But, unlike Christ, our good works we not always done with pure and pefect motives. Futhermore, unlike Christ, our good works were done apart from Christ (without faith) and therefore not done to the glory of God. Rather, they were done to our own glory. We, not He [God], received credit for it. The purpose for which we were created, i.e., to Glory God, is not fulfilled in self-glorification. Therefore, all good works apart from Christ are as "filty rags" or "a polluted garment." To live any other way than what we were designed to live for, namely the glory of God, is a waste of life and ultimately vain.

This deserves another read. I didnt want this point to get lost.