Why We Need a Savior

Silas said:
Yes. They're called non-Christians.
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By you, Silas. James embraces Christ with all that is within him. Who are you to say. What Would Jesus Do?

InPeace,
InLove
 
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InLove said:


By you, Silas. James embraces Christ with all that is within him. Who are you to say. What Would Jesus Do?

InPeace,
InLove
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I really dont meant to sound mean for saying this, but I have to be honest. The Christ that James embraces with his whole heart isnt the Christ of the Bible. Who am I to say this? A weak and struggling Christian. What would Jesus do? I think He'd probably tell the parable of the sower in Luke 8 that James may know what kind of "conversation" he had.
 
Hi Silas, I greatly appreciate your pulling up the quotes.

Silas said:

Christ suffered God's wrath on behalf of those who trust in Him to save them from God's wrath. The Born again person is saved to live to righteousness:

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (1 Pet 2:21-25)
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I don't see where this applies only to the born again person...I think most simply it is anyone who places their faith in Christ. I don't think we are to make assumptions about what qualifies someone as "you (who) have returned to the Shepherd."
Christ came into the world to pay the price for his people and save them from their sins:

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (Mat 1:21)
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I quite agree that Jesus saves us from our sins...I'm just not getting the payment of a price...to whom is the payment made? (PS--you don't need to answer that...I've got a thick book of theology right here on my desk and it gives the various answers to that, plus the weaknesses in each of those answers...all the work of theologians, all based on the Bible).

How did Christ do this? God the Father put Christ forth as a sacrifice that by His sacrifice we can be justified:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)
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OK...course that is OT.


Our justification is through faith in Christ alone and not of works:

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:16)
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I have no problem with that, Anglicans technically uphold sola fide. But the bugaboo is, the only outward sign of that faith is the fruit of the Spirit, even to ourselves...there is no way for us to judge the hearts and souls of others...most especially whether they are 'saved' by our criteria.

Silas, I've enjoyed the exchange. I always appreciate the opportunity to clarify my thinking about things, and to stengthen my faith where it is weak. I'm thinking that too much more here and we'll just be throwing stumbling blocks, so I'm bowing out. Christ is my Savior, my God is Love, and in Him I live and move and have my being.

luna
 
Ooh, I like the parable of the sower, lol. :) Whats your view?
 
Silas, I think the parable of the sower is very appropriate in this moment.

InPeace,
InLove
 
I don't see where this applies only to the born again person...I think most simply it is anyone who places their faith in Christ. I don't think we are to make assumptions about what qualifies someone as "you (who) have returned to the Shepherd."

Everyone who places their faith in Christ (the Christ of Scripture) is born again (Romans 1:16).
I quite agree that Jesus saves us from our sins...I'm just not getting the payment of a price...to whom is the payment made? (PS--you don't need to answer that...I've got a thick book of theology right here on my desk and it gives the various answers to that, plus the weaknesses in each of those answers...all the work of theologians, all based on the Bible).

Theology is great, but its more profitable if you are born again, because only then will you know truth. This is what I was trying to get across to James - He has to be born again.

 OK...course that is OT.

Right. An OT scripture concerning the Christ.

I have no problem with that, Anglicans technically uphold sola fide. But the bugaboo is, the only outward sign of that faith is the fruit of the Spirit, even to ourselves...there is no way for us to judge the hearts and souls of others...most especially whether they are 'saved' by our criteria.

We cant judge the hearts of others, because we dont know it. Plus, we arent allowed to. But, we can make judgements based on fruit and doctrine. One of the commission to Christian in the Bible is to know what you believe and why (applogetics). There are certain core and essential doctrines of the faith. If you dont believe them, you cannot rightfully be called a Christian.

Silas, I've enjoyed the exchange. I always appreciate the opportunity to clarify my thinking about things, and to stengthen my faith where it is weak. I'm thinking that too much more here and we'll just be throwing stumbling blocks, so I'm bowing out. Christ is my Savior, my God is Love, and in Him I live and move and have my being.

Good. Aim to serve the God who rescued you well. I aim to do the same.
 
Silas said:
If you dont believe them, you cannot rightfully be called a Christian.
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Silas, I love you, but I am telling you that you are following some 16th century (or thereabouts) idea of Christianity. I am not saying there is not an element of truth there, but it is a man's idea of Christ. If you agree with a man's idea--a man like you--without searching the Scriptures more deeply, then you will only know that man's idea.

For example, what do you keep trying to tell Mee? The same thing. But my dear brother, you are doing the same thing, only it is a great deal less attractive.

InPeace,
InLove
 
InLove said:
Silas, I love you, but I am telling you that you are following some 16th century (or thereabouts) idea of Christianity. I am not saying there is not an element of truth there, but it is a man's idea of Christ. If you agree with a man's idea--a man like you--without searching the Scriptures more deeply, then you will only know that man's idea.

For example, what do you keep trying to tell Mee? The same thing. But my dear brother, you are doing the same thing, only it is a great deal less attractive.

InPeace,
InLove
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I understand what you're saying, but I am not following a man made or man-centered gospel, but what the scripture teaches. How can I, in good conscience, call someone a Chrisitan when they do not believe the core essential doctrines of the faith? Christ dying to save sinners, is fundamental to the faith. Being saved by faith grace alone, through faith in Christ alone, and to God's glory alone, is fundamental too. The fact that Jesus is God is fundamental. The fact that Christ rose bodily from the grave on the 3rd day and that He is coming back, is essential. I can still fellowship with someone who has a different understanding of escatology than myself. I believe in a pretrib rapture and some of my friends believe post tribe. I am a Calvinist and a few of my friends are Arminians. Those things arent essential to being saved because you can be saved without knowing those things. But again, if your view of Christanity says that Christ died for any other reason than the Bible gives, namely that he died to save sinners from God's justice, then you're already in hersy land and you cannot be named a Christian.
 
No one is saying that Christ did not come to save us from our sins. They are only looking at this truth in a way you do not yet see. It is okay. No one is disrespecting God's Son, Silas. They are loving Him. And they are loving you! They are following His teachings. What did He teach? You tell us all the time, but you don't understand that we understand.

InPeace,
InLove
 
Silas, you're trying to draw me into defending myself to YOU, and I will not, as i am not here to glory self, but to glory God who is my shelter.

If you want to talk about the sower, then lets do so, and have a profitable discussion. If you want to talk about me, then I will humbly bow out of this discussion and leave you to your judgements.
 
InLove said:
No one is saying that Christ did not come to save us from our sins. They are only looking at this truth in a way you do not yet see. It is okay. No one is disrespecting God's Son, Silas. They are loving Him. And they are loving you! They are following His teachings. What did He teach? You tell us all the time, but you don't understand that we understand.

InPeace,
InLove
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Christ taught repentence and faith.
 
How would the following work out?

Christ taught forgiveness, mercy, repentence, faith and love.

I guess we could try to put them in some kind of order, but I don't think it is necessarily necessary. ;) :)

Just thinking....

InPeace,
InLove
 
juantoo3 said:
Christ taught forgiveness, mercy and love.
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Yes Jesus did teach that. But, he didnt teach that forgivenss, mercy, and love would get people saved from God's wrath. He taught Repentance and Faith. In fact, He, like all of God's people, commanded it.
 
InLove said:
How would the following work out?

Christ taught forgiveness, mercy, repentence, faith and love.

I guess we could try to put them in some kind of order, but I don't think it is necessarily necessary. ;) :)

Just thinking....

InPeace,
InLove
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I read them backwards & that order seems to fit nicely. I'd say the first two or rather last two provide the foundational roots that lead to the others. :)

I think you think like I think, lol! :D
 
juantoo3 said:
Then what is grace, if it is not the very thing you say it isn't?
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Grace is unmerited and undeserved favor in which God in His most wise and most free choice, chooses to forgive someone. God is forgiving because the wrath of God is assuaged since justice has been met in Christ. Now, therefore, God can do exactly what He said is an abomination to do, namely, justify the wicked and ungodly.
 
Silas said:
Grace is unmerited and undeserved favor in which God in His most wise and most free choice, chooses to forgive someone. God is forgiving because the wrath of God is assuaged since justice has been met in Christ. Now, therefore, God can do exactly what He said is an abomination to do, namely, justify the wicked and ungodly.
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OOOOPS...are you suggesting G-d makes mistakes? That G-d can go back on His word? That G-d contradicts Himself?
 
Let's back up a minute for your benefit.

Christ taught forgiveness, mercy and love.
Silas said:
Yes Jesus did teach that. But, he didnt teach that forgivenss, mercy, and love would get people saved from God's wrath.
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juantoo3 said:
Then what is grace, if it is not the very thing you say it isn't?
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Silas said:
Grace is unmerited and undeserved favor...
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So far, so good.

Now, what is "unmerited and undeserved favor" if not "mercy, forgiveness and love?" I submit they are one and the same.

We are to forgive if we expect forgiveness, for there is no forgiveness for those who cannot forgive.

We are to be merciful if we expect to receive mercy, for there is no mercy for the unmerciful.

We are to be loving if we can ever hope to receive G-d's most precious gift of love, for no such love can be received by a heart filled with hatred.

This is all Biblical, all New Testament, Jesus' own words supported by both Paul and James.
 
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