Why We Need a Savior

Silas said:
The following should illustrate how I feel: :eek: + :( = :confused: James, you have to learn to do two very important things.

1. Read scripture in context.
2. Get the author's intended meaning of scripture and do not add in your own.

If you practice these, you'd be better off. You might not agree, but at least you'd be qouting scripture correctly.
Click to expand...


I could very well suggest you do the same, haha! :)
 
-James- said:
I re-read your post, and couldn't find the answer to my question. Where does it say that those who have passed away are tormented there? Again, I liken it to be that place of torment that existed in my inner man before Christ came and conqeured it. To me, it's the natural state of man that people reside in until they embrace/accept God in their hearts.


James
Click to expand...

You're kiddin', right? Did you read the scriptures I posted? I gave scripture to support my points. That said, if your views differ from what the Bible teaches, the early saints taught, the Christians throughout the ages, and Christians today, why would you assume that you are correct? You dont think that's a bit arrogant? Moreover, doesnt the Bible teach that we shouldnt trust ourselves, but only God's word?
 
I'm saying that hell exists on a spiritual level, and you have not shown me where is says that our loved ones who have passed away are burning there. You have not supported your views, but only quoted scripture that pertains to the idea that we are tormented when not in God, or saved. You take it literal, but Christ did not speak in literal terms my friend.

Hell exists, but not like you view it to exist. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm not worried about being wrong. Why, because tomorrow doesn't matter nearly as much as today. Perfect love casts out fear.


James
 
-James- said:
I'm saying that hell exists on a spiritual level, and you have not shown me where is says that our loved ones who have passed away are burning there. You have not supported your views, but only quoted scripture that pertains to the idea that we are tormented when not in God, or saved. You take it literal, but Christ did not speak in literal terms my friend.

Hell exists, but not like you view it to exist. Of course, I could be wrong, but I'm not worried about being wrong. Why, because tomorrow doesn't matter nearly as much as today. Perfect love casts out fear.


James
Click to expand...

What do you think Jesus came to save us from, James?
 
From our sinful nature, silas. From the death we inherited from the fall, from ourselves, man.
 
-James- said:
From our sinful nature, silas. From the death we inherited from the fall, from ourselves, man.
Click to expand...

Sounds good so far. Let's probe a little more, James. Tell me why Jesus had to die that agonizing death?
 
Silas, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why you think James's idea of hell cannot embrace your own. It's just that James knows where the devil lives, so he doesn't make a point to visit him.

InPeace,
InLove
 
-James- said:
How bout you tell me
Click to expand...

James, I'd really like to know your thoughts on why God had to make Jesus suffer the way He did because your view on scripture is new and sort of interesting to me. So why did the Father have to crush the Son?
 
I'd very much like to know your view, Silas. I haven't a real answer to your question, so maybe I will bennefit from your view in this case.
 
Silas said:
Sounds good so far. Let's probe a little more, James. Tell me why Jesus had to die that agonizing death?
Click to expand...
He died an agonizing death, and we are left to find meaning in that. He could have died of natural causes, the sacrifice would still be the same because it is the Incarnation and Resurrection which saves us. We all die, sometimes agonizing deaths, sometimes when old age steals all we have, but we all die. The sacrifice was for God to share in this fully with us. Love can not be distant...it touches us and shares our suffering.

How this act exhausted evil and conquered death and reconciled us with God is the fodder of theologians, including those who came up with the idea that it was a payment for sin. But none of them knows...it is ultimately a Mystery, one which we choose to trust.
 
-James- said:
I'd very much like to know your view, Silas. I haven't a real answer to your question, so maybe I will bennefit from your view in this case.
Click to expand...

I believe the Bible in that the Father crushed the Son for two main reasons:

1. That the world may know that God hates sin and punishes people for it.
2. That all those who trust in Christ can be justified before God by having Christ pay for their sins and they having Christ' righteousness imputed to their account.
 
lunamoth said:
He died an agonizing death, and we are left to find meaning in that. He could have died of natural causes, the sacrifice would still be the same because it is the Incarnation and Resurrection which saves us. We all die, sometimes agonizing deaths, sometimes when old age steals all we have, but we all die. The sacrifice was for God to share in this fully with us. Love can not be distant...it touches us and shares our suffering.

How this act exhausted evil and conquered death and reconciled us with God is the fodder of theologians, including those who came up with the idea that it was a payment for sin. But none of them knows...it is ultimately a Mystery, one which we choose to trust.
Click to expand...

Actually, it is the atoning sacrificial death of Christ that saves us. God is propetiated Christ' death serves as the only means wereby guilty people can be saved from God's wrath. The Ressurrection of Christ validates Christ' claims and gives the believer hope in what Christ has done.
 
Silas said:
Actually, it is the atoning sacrificial death of Christ that saves us. God is propetiated Christ' death serves as the only means wereby guilty people can be saved from God's wrath. The Ressurrection of Christ validates Christ' claims and gives the believer hope in what Christ has done.
Click to expand...

Hi Silas,

I use the language of sacrificial death too...and it has meaning for me, but obviously what it means to me is different than what it means to you.

Can you give me a couple of Bible passages to support the underlined sentence above?

luna
 
I understand the message of your view, but there are many who view it differently. I personaly don't know, man. I cannot in all honesty say that I do, but here's another perspective that you might want to chew on a bit.


The bible teaches that Jesus was punished for our iniquities, but many believe this is true only in the sense that mans sins are what killed him. The people during his time harbored great resentment towards Jesus, along with bitterness, and anger. (According to scripture) His preaching was considered blasphemy among the religious ones of the day, and it was their hardened hearts, and spiritual emptiness that put Jesus to death in the end. He showed the world that even under threat of death how powerful love can be. He submitted fully to it, and he died for it, so we all who would hear his testimony might find truth in his message. He showed compassion until the very end, and this is what it means to be free from the "sinful" man. To forgive, love, and harbor no resentment towards those who would persecute out of the evil of their hearts.
 
lunamoth said:
Hi Silas,

I use the language of sacrificial death too...and it has meaning for me, but obviously what it means to me is different than what it means to you.

Can you give me a couple of Bible passages to support the underlined sentence above?

luna
Click to expand...

Christ suffered God's wrath on behalf of those who trust in Him to save them from God's wrath. The Born again person is saved to live to righteousness:

For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to him who judges righteously; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls. (1 Pet 2:21-25)

Christ came into the world to pay the price for his people and save them from their sins:

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (Mat 1:21)

How did Christ do this? God the Father put Christ forth as a sacrifice that by His sacrifice we can be justified:
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)

Our justification is through faith in Christ alone and not of works:

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. (Gal 2:16)
 
James

I understand the message of your view, but there are many who view it differently.

Yes. They're called non-Christians.

I personaly don't know, man. I cannot in all honesty say that I do, but here's another perspective that you might want to chew on a bit.The bible teaches that Jesus was punished for our iniquities, but many believe this is true only in the sense that mans sins are what killed him. The people during his time harbored great resentment towards Jesus, along with bitterness, and anger. (According to scripture) His preaching was considered blasphemy among the religious ones of the day, and it was their hardened hearts, and spiritual emptiness that put Jesus to death in the end.

How did they get that from the Bible? The Bible says that God killed Jesus. He orchestrated the whole thing.

He showed the world that even under threat of death how powerful love can be. He submitted fully to it, and he died for it, so we all who would hear his testimony might find truth in his message.

I really laughed out loud when I read that. You reduce God's love to some trite and fickle human emotion. That's so not cool!

He showed compassion until the very end, and this is what it means to be free from the "sinful" man. To forgive, love, and harbor no resentment towards those who would persecute out of the evil of their hearts.

Dude, thats not bible. And because that is what you believe, you cannot in truth, adhere to the name Christian.

 
I'm not going to even attempt to defend this view, silas. There is no point, man. We are having a discussion, and I threw out another perspective. Take it as such and keep you sarcasm, judgement, and condescension to yourself. It serves no good purpose, bro.

By the way, if you understood what God's love is, you wouldn't try to reduce it to a mere human emotion, or a fickle vanity. It was love that Christ died for, for mankind and for God.


James
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top