What would you do if pt 2

wil said:
Now you are aware that to me we are not punished for our sins but by them. That has nothing to do with G-d or religion, just a physical reaction. I punch you in the mouth, you respond by punching me in the mouth. I don't like getting punched in the mouth, so I stop doing this. I try to rob someone, they beat me up, I decide to try another method. In this world it is easier to be nice than mean...my understanding. No blind chance, sin is missing the mark, not doing your best, an archery term meaning you missed the bullseye...how many sins, how from from your mark are you? The more times in life I hit the bullseye the better life is for me. Now despite the fact that I believe that is the way our creator set it up...I still don't need to believe in G-d for that to happen. And if perchance as you posit that G-d didn't create the world and this wonderful 'karmic' reaction....then so be it, it was a wonderful case of blind chance.

You still haven't answered....why did I decide to become moral, become a better person before I found an understanding with G-d?
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Im sorry Wil, Im going to end this converstion now because I dont think I did a well enough job explaining what this coversation is about. This was just a philosophical question and it has nothing to do with God or penelity for sins. Rather, it has everything to do with the thought of no God, no judgement for sin, and why do people choose to be moral? I'll have to think about this on my own, thanks for answering anyway!!

As for your question, why you decided to be moral? I think its because you try to appease God without having to submit to God. You seem to think that your goodness or worth is of any true goodness or worth in God's eyes. You, like most, have a form of godliness but deny the power. Hopes that helps!!
 
Silas said:
That would be an assumed premises that shouldnt be added into what I said.
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I'm sorry Silas, but that is exactly what you said. Perhaps you would like to reframe your argument? Your statement implies that without a God, there is no meaning and humans are worthless is that correct?
 
Silas said:
Im sorry Wil, Im going to end this converstion now...

As for your question, why you decided to be moral? I think its because you try to appease God without having to submit to God. You seem to think that your goodness or worth is of any true goodness or worth in God's eyes. You, like most, have a form of godliness but deny the power. Hopes that helps!!
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Namaste Silas,

When the going gets tough, stick with it my brother...don't sidestep to where it is easier.

You seem to wish to continue the dance between two worlds. I answer every one of your questions exactly as the question is posed. And for the purpose of your 'what if'. But in reality, I am a Christian, following my elder brother and wayshower Jesus the Christ. In reality I do know the source of my supply and goodness goes to the creator.... But that realization was not what came first, my first realization was in the secular world, knowing that there was more to being human than trying to get over, knowing that personal growth and understanding would be valuable, knowing that service to others leads to personal gain, not just monetarily. These natural laws affect us, they affect us all, and given time to contemplate and comprehend we can see that. Many of us however have a clouded vision, clouded by alcohol or drugs, clouded by beer and circus, the material world... Once we step back and realize we are digging our own ditch we change our ways...for some it is a light from above, for others an inner knowing. Some come to G-d without being beat about the head.
 
We seem to have reached an impasse here, with Silas claiming that his original question, as set - or at least, as he understands it to have been set - has not yet been answered. From my own perspective, it appears to have been answered perfectly comprehensively, yet perhaps another try?

(As an aside, Silas, if you are genuinely concerned with having your question answered I would recommend the works of Friedrich Nietzche. I would just say that I always need to look up exactly how to spell the guys name, which points to the reality that personally I'm unable to truly understand his philosophical subtleties and arguments. Yet others may fare better than I!)

Getting back to the question, it seems to be why a mere product of matter in motion, a chance collection of atoms, in a universe that just happens to have happened with no intrinsic meaning, should choose the "ethical". To answer in Christian terms, one would need to consider how the "unethical" entered the world created by God, considered at the time to be "good". This question has been posed by John Hick ,in his book "God and the Universe of Faiths" , wherein he discusses the original eruption of evil, or the choice to be "unethical". He argues that such a choice, given the original "goodness" of man and of the angels, becomes self-contradictory. Hick brings forth the works of that great pillar of the Church, St Augustine, to substantiate his conclusion.

He quotes St Augustine extensively, and sums up.........thus St Augustine saw that the notion of finitely perfect beings, endowed with all the goodness that God's love prompts him to bestow upon its objects, deliberately and sinfully turning away from their maker, is an impossible idea..........a theory which postulates the self-creation of evil ex nihilo is not a viable option.

Yet evil has in fact been "chosen".

The point of all this is that if such be the case - and I accept that if one were to obtain the book, or read St Augustine oneself, one may well disagree with both Hick and St Augustine - then the idea of mere matter in motion, a human being in a universe without God, actually choosing the ethical, is the opposite side of the coin. Good is chosen ex nihilo! And with as much to "justify" it as the original choice of evil/sin!

It is mostly the existentialist philospohers who argue in favour of the ethical choice in the face of a "meaningless" universe. (Once again, I have to admit, in ways that leave my own intellect flagging). Here is Hazel Barnes...........

......self-realization is immediate. It is the direct intuition of freedom. I am not speaking of the reflective abstract idea that one is free. The experience of freedom is best realized in the nonreflective spontaneous act in which consciousness' implicit self-awareness of itself as acting takes the form of a nonreflective comprehension that the act is free of any consideration save the immediate willing.

Exitentialism (at least Atheist Existentialism) speaks in terms of the authentic and the unauthentic life, and the need to "justify" it, and Hazel Barnes continues........

The choice to live unauthentically rests upon a refusal to recognise the existence and demands of freedom; it seeks to hide from itself the very fact that it is a choice. The choice to be ethical embraces both the recognition that one is free and the acceptance of the reponsibility which freedom entails. It is an authentic choice, for it recognises that the decision to justify one's life derives from one's own spontaneous desire and is not imposed from the outside.

Well, after all that, one might not agree. Yet the attempt to answer the question as framed has been made. Silas, if the attempt has failed, please just ask another question......

:)
 
Silas said:
What if there is no God and humanity was just the effect of an accidential cause, namely, the big bang? What if we came from a huge cosmic accident? If we come from no where and are going no where ultimately, does this change the way you look at things? Will life then becoming meaningless and glib? Will you still strive for things even though you know it will have no real purpose or meaning to it in the end? What will you do?
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Will a computer or any physical thing in this world care if it is told that God is not its creator? Will it call you a liar? Will life seem any more meaningless and glib to it? Will a computer strive for things even though it will have no real purpose or meaning in the end?
 
So what if there is no god.. and you can sin to your hearts desire with no fear of going to hell.?

Well, if you only had this life.. you would want to make it the best you could wouldn't you? I would be wanting to extend my mortal existance as long as possible.

Drinking.. = liver disease :(
Wenching = STD's (and angry brothers and fathers):mad:
Lying & Stealing = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Murder = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Hurting People Generally = Well there is always someone out there, who is bigger than you.. who is gonna punch your lights out if you push them too far.:D
 
Star Sarellia said:
So what if there is no god.. and you can sin to your hearts desire with no fear of going to hell.?

Well, if you only had this life.. you would want to make it the best you could wouldn't you? I would be wanting to extend my mortal existance as long as possible.

Drinking.. = liver disease :(
Wenching = STD's (and angry brothers and fathers):mad:
Lying & Stealing = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Murder = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Hurting People Generally = Well there is always someone out there, who is bigger than you.. who is gonna punch your lights out if you push them too far.:D
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If there was no God and your life consised of meaningless time that will end as sudden as it began with no real meaning of anything in between, why would you care if you get liver disease, STD's, go to jail, hurt people, etc? If there was no God and no consequence for actions, and no meaning to life, why would I care about anything but me? I'd live as greedy as I would for as long as I could and die happy! But, thats just me.
 
Silas said:
If there was no God and your life consised of meaningless time that will end as sudden as it began with no real meaning of anything in between, why would you care if you get liver disease, STD's, go to jail, hurt people, etc? If there was no God and no consequence for actions, and no meaning to life, why would I care about anything but me? I'd live as greedy as I would for as long as I could and die happy! But, thats just me.
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Once again Silas, yet another poster answered your question and you refuse to read? and then you proceed to ask it again??
Originally Posted by Star Sarellia

Well, if you only had this life.. you would want to make it the best you could wouldn't you? I would be wanting to extend my mortal existance as long as possible.
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How could she be any clearer??

I do thank G-d you've got Jesus in your life my brother...as you do seemed destined for self destruction without him...
 
Star Sarellia said:
So what if there is no god.. and you can sin to your hearts desire with no fear of going to hell.?

Well, if you only had this life.. you would want to make it the best you could wouldn't you? I would be wanting to extend my mortal existance as long as possible.

Drinking.. = liver disease :(
Wenching = STD's (and angry brothers and fathers):mad:
Lying & Stealing = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Murder = Prison (and STD's):eek:
Hurting People Generally = Well there is always someone out there, who is bigger than you.. who is gonna punch your lights out if you push them too far.:D
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Hey, I didnt see that part in red before. Thats exactly my point!!
 
It seems to me that if there was no belief in an afterlife among humans and if there were some who decided that since 'this is it' all they were going to do is carouse and take whatever food, sex, mind-altering drugs and other stuff they could get away with, that group would lose its adaptive advantage, leaving fewer and fewer progeny into the next generation. Lets face it, if you are living only for yourself you're not going to care much for the hard work of successfully raising children. So, in your raping and pillaging you might get lucky and leave some offspring behind but meanwhile...

Another group of more peaceful folks figure out that they can get more food and comfort with greater efficiency if they cooperate, and the women figure out that the more stable guys who don't rape and pillage help them more when the babies come...so they are going to select those men who show interest in helping out with the family...and those men and women will have more offspring until eventually...the stable, hard-wroking, cooperating folks simply out-reproduce the raping, pillaging, carousing crowd. Since they are cooperating and being peaceful they also have more time to fingure out things like how to build fortified towns to keep out the huns...and invent things like computer games and fine wine. Meanwhile, the non-cooperative carousers just die in a drunken stupor.

What was the name of that again, when the best-suited population leaves more progeny and the population that leaves less progeny eventually disappears? Oh yeah...evolution.
 
lunamoth said:
It seems to me that if there was no belief in an afterlife among humans and if there were some who decided that since 'this is it' all they were going to do is carouse and take whatever food, sex, mind-altering drugs and other stuff they could get away with, that group would lose its adaptive advantage, leaving fewer and fewer progeny into the next generation. Lets face it, if you are living only for yourself you're not going to care much for the hard work of successfully raising children. So, in your raping and pillaging you might get lucky and leave some offspring behind but meanwhile...

Another group of more peaceful folks figure out that they can get more food and comfort with greater efficiency if they cooperate, and the women figure out that the more stable guys who don't rape and pillage help them more when the babies come...so they are going to select those men who show interest in helping out with the family...and those men and women will have more offspring until eventually...the stable, hard-wroking, cooperating folks simply out-reproduce the raping, pillaging, carousing crowd. Since they are cooperating and being peaceful they also have more time to fingure out things like how to build fortified towns to keep out the huns...and invent things like computer games and fine wine. Meanwhile, the non-cooperative carousers just die in a drunken stupor.

What was the name of that again, when the best-suited population leaves more progeny and the population that leaves less progeny eventually disappears? Oh yeah...evolution.
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... pre-supposing that the sin was in the genes and naturally selected in the first place, contradicting that atheist theory.
 
cyberpi said:
... pre-supposing that the sin was in the genes and naturally selected in the first place, contradicting that atheist theory.
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Not at all. Behaviors based in either genes or cultural memes that are less conducive to leaving more healthy offspring will either way be selected out.
 
Also, am I missing something or is it not true that people lose their faith in God on a pretty regular basis without turning into selfish heathens.

Isn't it also true that there have been (and are) entire cultures (China?) in which a majority does not believe in God or an afterlife, and they seem to be just as civilized (and sometmes more than) as others who do have theistic religions.
 
lunamoth said:
Not at all. Behaviors based in either genes or cultural memes that are less conducive to leaving more healthy offspring will either way be selected out.
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Again, pre-supposing that those less conducive traits were previously the more conducive traits so that they were first selected in and made ever-present. What selected them in the first place? The premised atheist theory conflicts with itself.
 
Silas said:
If this were true, I'd do all the things that my heart desired. I'd aim to be as rich as I can get, date and sleep with the best looking girls of the world, get everything I wanted to get, do everything I wanted to do, and then die. My motto would be "eat, drink, and be merry; for on the morrow you die."

I aimed for that life in the past. I thought that was what life was about until Christ sought me and showed me my need for Him. I'm STILL amazed by this whole salvation thing!
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Wow . . . you must have been rich. Flirting, fornicating and philandering is usually the privilege of rich and wealthy people.:D They've got the power and money.

Me? I'm broke. But I'm thinking that even if I had a million dollars I still wouldn't do it. Money can't buy immortality or invincibility. If I did that people could starting thinking that I'm a "bad person." I don't really want that to happen. I'd get a bad reputation.

I might do that in a virtual reality simulation of the real world, since it's just a game. But life isn't a game. It's the real thing. It's not a simulation. This is the reality in which we exist. There is no reality outside of this reality. I need and want self-respect and I have to earn it.

What if I die from a heart attack tomorrow? What if I get killed in a car accident? Life is too precious, too sacred to muck around with.

What's the point of sleeping with girls when there's no love?

What if God didn't exist? Well, I wouldn't be vain, narcisstic or start sleeping with girls. I would be just as conservative. Think about it. You want a woman that can love you don't you? Actually, it would be worse if God didn't exist. God is my match-maker. How am I supposed to find the woman that belongs to me if God doesn't exist? Where is my future heading? What's my destiny? Romantic love (which is a combination of give and take) is pointless without God. That's because I don't have the power to make that love reach its full potential. I'm not the centre of the universe. There are other people living in this world, people with a mind of their own. I have to content with that. The exception is emotionally strong people. But I'm not superman.

I've had to work hard to get the life I've got now. It's not a free lunch for me. Life is miserable without God. I would rather die than live. The only reason why I don't want to die now is because I haven't achieved my full potential. I want to die with dignity, so in a sense I have to finish what I've started in this world. It's a fact of life that I have to work. I can't live extravagantly, nor can I choose to die at this instant. I have to take the narrow path because living extravagantly and indulgently leads to corruption, but committing suicide deprives me of my personal dignity. So I have no choice but to fight on. Ever onward!!!

Life is a battle. It's a war. I spend my whole life fighting dragons and demons that take the form of personal problems. God gives me a break. He's my sword, my shield, my refuge, my friend, my comrade. We walk, march, stand and fight together. If I fall into a big hole I say, Lord help me and he helps me out.

I would pretty much do the same thing as I'm doing now whether or not God existed. The only difference is that with God, there is hope of escaping this nightmare world.

Silas said:
Thanks for answering! But no one has answered the question yet. I'm sorry if Im not asking correctly, but I just want to know why someone who would opt for being the result of years of chance, aka, evolution, and who would believe that their life is meaningless since they came from nothing and will ultimately go no where, why would they choose to be moral at all? It doesnt make sense to believe one way and live opposite to that belief.
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I hope that answered your question.

Oh -- why would they? I don't think there's a reason at all!!! They just happen to choose to believe that there is no God.

According to my personal experience, I would choose morals regardless of whether God existed. I simply seek a relationship with God because I'm hoping for paradise at the end. I conclude from my own, subjective experience that because it doesn't affect my moral choices, that there is no reason whatsoever for choosing either way -- that God existed/did not exist. Whether I was atheist or Christian, whatever argument I give you for being atheist/monotheist is of no consequence.

Suppose you're playing a ball game. When do you choose to reach out and catch the ball? Do you perform calculations to decide when is the most optimum instant? The answer is, if you're a normal human being, you don't perform any calculations. You naturally reach out when it looks like it's the right time to start acting.

That's just like the question of when thought is translated to action. What's the science behind it? Where does it all begin?

I would choose to believe or not believe for no reason at all, provided I am not hoping for something beyond this life. But I am hoping for something beyond, so I am inspiring myself to believe. Otherwise, I wouldn't believe. Without hope, there is probably no motivation to believe anything.
 
Silas said:
If there was no God and no consequence for actions, and no meaning to life, why would I care about anything but me? I'd live as greedy as I would for as long as I could and die happy! But, thats just me.
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Hi,

Just because someone does not believe in your God it does not follow that they think their life is meaningless (as you assume in your question). It is presumably meaningless to you, but not, presumably to them.

You are in effect saying that you are not really a “good” person but that you’re really a greedy (selfish) person but who behaves in the way that you do because you are fearful of being punished if you behaved how you would in actual fact really like to behave. If Christianity was really just a means of social control then it would be simply duplicating the work of the police and the courts.

People who do not believe in your God behave as they do because they all have their own moral outlooks. Kohlberg studied these and put them into a staged classification from 1 to 7. Few if any adults seem to get to 6 and let alone 7 (Transcendental Morality). The Obedience and Punishment Orientation is Stage 1.

http://www.comparative-religion.com...moral-development-567.html?highlight=Kohlberg

You can’t see that people are answering your question because they are not saying what you want them to say.

s.
 
Snoopy said:
Hi,

Just because someone does not believe in your God it does not follow that they think their life is meaningless (as you assume in your question). It is presumably meaningless to you, but not, presumably to them.

You are in effect saying that you are not really a “good” person but that you’re really a greedy (selfish) person but who behaves in the way that you do because you are fearful of being punished if you behaved how you would in actual fact really like to behave. If Christianity was really just a means of social control then it would be simply duplicating the work of the police and the courts.

People who do not believe in your God behave as they do because they all have their own moral outlooks. Kohlberg studied these and put them into a staged classification from 1 to 7. Few if any adults seem to get to 6 and let alone 7 (Transcendental Morality). The Obedience and Punishment Orientation is Stage 1.

http://www.comparative-religion.com...moral-development-567.html?highlight=Kohlberg

You can’t see that people are answering your question because they are not saying what you want them to say.

s.
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Its not that people aren't saying what I want them to say, but rather that they are not honest. If you don't believe in God, albeit any god, but rather that you are the product of mindless chance, namely evolution, what purpose can you possibly have? Will you marry and raise children? Why? Will you work and leave behind a legacy for people to remember? Why? Will you do great things and cherish the time you have? Why? What good will any of that produce in the nothingness of your life and all other lives? Oh you say, "I choose to make meaning of my life!" Yet, that does not answer the question -"why?" It is the height of youthful arrogance to assume your life will matter if you are but the product of chance, and an insult to the intellect to assume such a thought. People teach evolution, yet very few indeed live consistent to what they teach. Why? This is the reason I asked the question, namely to show that most who teach this really do not believe it, else they would live it. Will a man who's origin is in chance and future in oblivion, find anyone but self to please? To assume an emphatic yes, is to ignore history's proof of the lostness of man.
 
Silas said:
Its not that people aren't saying what I want them to say, but rather that they are not honest. If you don't believe in God, albeit any god, but rather that you are the product of mindless chance, namely evolution, what purpose can you possibly have? Will you marry and raise children? Why? Will you work and leave behind a legacy for people to remember? Why? Will you do great things and cherish the time you have? Why? What good will any of that produce in the nothingness of your life and all other lives? Oh you say, "I choose to make meaning of my life!" Yet, that does not answer the question -"why?" It is the height of youthful arrogance to assume your life will matter if you are but the product of chance, and an insult to the intellect to assume such a thought. People teach evolution, yet very few indeed live consistent to what they teach. Why? This is the reason I asked the question, namely to show that most who teach this really do not believe it, else they would live it. Will a man who's origin is in chance and future in oblivion, find anyone but self to please? To assume an emphatic yes, is to ignore history's proof of the lostness of man.
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Right, because if they were truly honest they would be agreeing with you, is that right?
 
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