Music and Worship

Me too. What I was trying to say is...imagine you're some whirling dervish dude observing a Pentacostal revival. It's as weird looking to him as he would be to the charismatic Christian dude. Maybe he's not thinking, "isn't it a pity they're lost, I'm so glad I'm not" like the Christian, but he's still got some conception that this singing and praising, and running around saying hallelujah is strange, and maybe inferior to what he does with his whirling thing, which makes perfect sense, and seems quite normal to him.

It seems to me that it's easy to criticize Christianity because it's so close. It's hard to see it as weird and wonderful the way we can easily see something foreign and different, by virtue of the distance between that and us. I know any number of ex-Christians who have nothing but disdain for Christianity, but are gaga for anything with a hint of eastern flavor. Christian folks are ignorant hicks, but Tibetans who put colorful caps on their kids heads so the evil spirits will mistake them for flowers are ever so highly advanced. We're so darn enamoured of the touristy stuff, and so jaded and judgemental when it comes to our own ethnic religion.

Chris
Where is this coming from?
I haven't written anything that would suggest I think other religions are superior to Christianity.
I'm not critical of Christianity per se. I am however skeptical of people claiming to have moved by the, or a spirit. It would not matter what that spirit was, or what religion the person came from.
 
Christian folks are ignorant hicks, but Tibetans who put colorful caps on their kids heads so the evil spirits will mistake them for flowers are ever so highly advanced. We're so darn enamoured of the touristy stuff, and so jaded and judgemental when it comes to our own ethnic religion.

Chris

:D:D Certainly true! But I'd take Bach over tibetan music!
 
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... to me, there is a difference between feeling caught up in the crowd's momentum and feeling the holy spirit... they are not the same, and u might convince yourself they are, but u can only do that honestly if u don't know what the spirit really feels like... there is no human feeling like it, except love, and even real big love is a poor approximation... saying that, that feeling which I attribute to the holy spirit I have experienced in different surroundings, in catholic churches, in quaker meeting houses, in buddhist temples, in pagan moots, and I like to think that this spirit I encounter is not so small and vague that it only appears to a certain type of xtian in a certain type of church at a certain time, , and I feel that this essence, this spirit, is something universal which transcends creed, and which is the true sign of God's blessing, no matter what ur faith is... think of Highlander the movie and "the quickening"- that's what its like when the holy spirit comes... its either that or I have temporal lobe epilepsy...

evangelical pop worship is to me, a little sad... ppl are standing around, at a concert without any beer or waccy baccy, desperate to feel something, and they are so desperate to feel something because in reality their lives are very empty indeed, and so all those lustful or magical or egotistical feelings they have that they suppress can then found an estatic outlet... they don't watch TV, they don't read many books, they don't listen to normal bands, they don't mess about with hairstyles and fashion and all those other wonderful entertainments which placate the massses are not open to them... that's why ppl get off on God concerts... all that repressed emotionality suddenly surfaces, and bam! ppl are swooning and dropping like flies, pogo-ing in the aisles... first time in ages most of them have been able to just be...

between the ages of 14-25, the easiest way to get ppl to learn new concepts and to adopt these beliefs or behaviours is...

via music...

interesting, isn't it..? stick a catchy tune behind almost anything, play it to kids a few times and they will remember it for years... it has something to do with brain development...

beyond that, though, I think the Gods love music...
 
evangelical pop worship is to me, a little sad... ppl are standing around, at a concert without any beer or waccy baccy, desperate to feel something, and they are so desperate to feel something because in reality their lives are very empty indeed, and so all those lustful or magical or egotistical feelings they have that they suppress can then found an estatic outlet... they don't watch TV, they don't read many books, they don't listen to normal bands, they don't mess about with hairstyles and fashion and all those other wonderful entertainments which placate the massses are not open to them... that's why ppl get off on God concerts... all that repressed emotionality suddenly surfaces, and bam! ppl are swooning and dropping like flies, pogo-ing in the aisles... first time in ages most of them have been able to just be...

Back when I was naive about the things of God, I've been in meetings like this. Sometimes felt it, sometimes not. It is strange because a few things happen. One, you don't want to appear not to be in the spirit, else everyone will think something was wrong with you. Two, so you try to hype yourself into the spirit. Three, when it doesn't work, you feel disappointed and like God didn't want to meet with you that day. Maybe it was someone else's blessing that day. So you come out feeling empty and disappointed. But other times you do feel it and all is well.

Looking back though, it seems to me that it is more like looking for a "spiritual cocktail" during God's Happy Hour, seeking to be drunk in the spirit. But the thing is, that doesn't really change you life. Problems don't go away. Real change doesn't come from slipping on the spiritual nightgown, but by being in obedience to His Word.

I've found the presence of God's Spirit to be evident more as an aftereffect of living what I've read and trying to obey God than being part of the frenzy that proports to be worship of God. What dawns on me is that the worship of God is for Him, not us. We ought not to expect to feel anything when we come together and sing praises to His Name and proclaim His Greatness. Because as we live the Christian life (or whatever religious life), we will see God working in us in our daily affairs, and then when we come together in congregation, we can celebrate the good things God has done our of the gratitude of our heart. Then as a result of all that, the Spirit, like the wind, will blow through our temples and manifest Himself to us, like Jesus said:

"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - John 14:21
 
tis funny, for me to enjoy music I no longer need alcohol or waccy tobaccy...of course I did as a kid...or did I. I think it was just the venue...ie sex, drugs, rock and roll and booze just coincided.

It is said when you sing you pray twice...

Getting caught up in the music is relatively easy to do...when the music is good it moves you...when music and lyrics strike a chord...spiritual or not...a connection is made.

Our church starts out with silent meditation 20 minutes before service for those that like quiet time together..5 minutes prior to the start the piano starts breaking the silence and bringing folks back into the here and now.

Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.
 
Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.

Ours is quite similar. One part that always gets me - when the preachers come in from their "secret place behind the baptistry", a prayer response plays very softly on the organ. Then, everything cranks up and we sing the doxology.

I always imagine G-d watching the preachers coming in during the prayer response and then unfolding His arms, letting His powerful golden presence stream out to fill the church during the doxology.
 
Our church starts out with silent meditation 20 minutes before service for those that like quiet time together..5 minutes prior to the start the piano starts breaking the silence and bringing folks back into the here and now.

Service begins with a congregational song, some announcements, a choir song, singing the Lord's Prayer as a congregation, the talk, a guided meditation to music, a soloist or group performs during the offering, some more announcements, and then we break bread, and fruit and veggies, and whatever together...

Music is definitely part of our worship...but so is silence.

Hey, you've got a right smorgasboard haven't you? When I go to a church I would have to describe it as uninvolving and the people uninvolved. And when I occasionally catch a glimpse of Songs of Praise (BBC TV Sunday Christian programme) the people look simply self-conscious and/or embarrassed (maybe that's the cameras but I don't think that's all of it). Sounds like you've got something well groovy going on there.:cool:

s.
 
Ours is quite similar. One part that always gets me - when the preachers come in from their "secret place behind the baptistry", a prayer response plays very softly on the organ. Then, everything cranks up and we sing the doxology.

I always imagine G-d watching the preachers coming in during the prayer response and then unfolding His arms, letting His powerful golden presence stream out to fill the church during the doxology.
I had to look up bapistry and doxology...is there a particular song everytime or are they different? I guess our doxology is the Lord's Prayer? (we turn the lights out for the preservice meditation, the post talk guided meditation, and during the Lord's Prayer song as a way to get centered) Our minister, or whoever is speaking, as well as the choir sit amongst the congregation...they don't 'appear'

We do have fun. Last week they asked me to do a promo for the Jazz night, and Butch had started this new series called Exploring your Untapped Potential...in my head I kept getting it backwards and contemplating Tapping your Unexplored Potential. Well they always know they run risks sending me to the lecturn unscripted and as we have a discussion group prior to service which discusses, contemplates, tears apart the talk from the previous week...I indicated that our discussion would revolve around "How much untapped potential could a unitic explore if a unitic could tap unexplored potential?"
Hey, you've got a right smorgasboard haven't you? When I go to a church I would have to describe it as uninvolving and the people uninvolved. And when I occasionally catch a glimpse of Songs of Praise (BBC TV Sunday Christian programme) the people look simply self-conscious and/or embarrassed (maybe that's the cameras but I don't think that's all of it). Sounds like you've got something well groovy going on there.:cool:
I enjoy the heck out of it...but often have to listen online or cassete/cd as I play with the children most of the time... oh and one of my favorite parts is the end..circling up and gathering hands and singing "Let there be Love on Earth" and the "Prayer for Protection" I used to look around the circle and focus on the folks I know, catching eyes and smiles...I still do, but now I also focus on folks I don't know, or have never seen before, so I can insure I say hi and steal a hug from them before they go!

Let there be love on earth and let it begin with me
Let there be love on earth the love that was meant to be
With God as our father brothers all are we
Let us walk with each other in perfect harmony.

Let love begin with me let this be the moment now
With every step I take let this be my solemn vow
To take each moment and live each moment in love eternally

Let there be love on earth and let it begin with me


---and then--

The light of God surrounds you,
The love of God enfolds you,
The power of God protects you,
And the presence of God watches over you;
Wherever you are, God is.
And that's the TRUTH

 
I had to look up bapistry and doxology...is there a particular song everytime or are they different? I guess our doxology is the Lord's Prayer? (we turn the lights out for the preservice meditation, the post talk guided meditation, and during the Lord's Prayer song as a way to get centered) Our minister, or whoever is speaking, as well as the choir sit amongst the congregation...they don't 'appear'

The "doxology" is also called "Old Hundredth" and starts "Praise God from whom all blessings flow...". We have our heads bowed when the preachers come in (centering) so they seemingly "appear".

Since I go to a church in a retirement community (no, I'm not that old, I just go there!:D), we only have choir during the winter when all the "snowbirds" have returned. I sing in and love the choir!
 
To all the Saints:
If I may, I would like to respond to the original post first. I am a Lutheran. My family is Catholic, so we are members of a ‘liturgical’ Church. The Mass as practiced in both sects of Christianity makes extensive use of music. The ‘chant’ is far more prominent in the Catholic service, but as a
Cantor in our service I do use one of four settings. It is normally a solo offering that is meant to call the congregation to prayer. The opening theme is obvious: in Gregorian chant, “In peace let us pray to
The Lord!” It is called, The Kyrie. The Cantor sings a lead line, and the congregation responds. As far as the Pastor is concerned, the entire service can be sung!

All of this is not so much an articulation of a solo performance but is meant to be inspirational. There are usually several hymns sung by the congregation and we sing a hymn of praise. The choir sings a special during the offering and then it’s on to Communion, the Sanctus, etc. In essence, the singing is meant to draw the congregation into the service, (prayer to
and worship of God), as an integral ‘actor’ in the service which culminates in the Eucharist. It is totally unlike fundamentalist services. If one ‘gets the spirit’ it is a realization of the presence of the Holy Spirit
within the confines of the congregation as an existing entity.

In our Church, one to which I have been affiliated since 1971, that presence can be certain unexplainable noises, 'movement' within the confines of sanctuary during meditation and prayer, the sound of voices during
the musical interludes in the service. Many have heard untold voices singing with the congregation or the choir as music overcomes the normal emotions.

Which brings us to, The Spririt! I would agree that in many cases it is emotional reaction that leads to the gyrations often exhibited in ‘church’ meetings. Not only music but a base, unaccompanied rhythmic beat,
can be the catalyst of what some call an exhibit of the Spirit. Unfortunately, most folks cannot divine one spirit from another, be it the human spirit, an emotional response to a crowd, or the true Holy Spirit. That is unfortunate. In my case, and I am only being honest with you, I can divine spirits, human, evil, and Holy!

When you are alone in a Church (and we won’t restrict it to that building alone) and in the midst of prayer you are suddenly physically crushed into the floor by a presence you cannot deny, and the ceiling beam
begins to groan and crack like a massive tree getting ready to fall, there can be no question in your mind as to Who is present with you. A physical interaction between you and God’s Holy Spirit is painful, it can be terrifying, and it can take you to a plain of existence which is enough to drive the human ‘vessel’ insane! But then, I am different. I consider myself to be of an intellectual bent. Yet, I am aware of the physical presence of ‘shadows’ (angels) and yes, I do have waking and sleeping visions. To date, all have come into existence.

It is a sad story, those few that I have met in my lifetime like myself, are never truly a part of the Church society. We seldom feel as though we belong and relegate ourselves to study and teaching. I chose to make
myself available as a teacher, a Cantor, and a Lector, but I still do not feel as though I am a part of the Church body. But we do not resort to arm-waving, jumping up and down or screaming like maniacs, although I would
never rule out that reception of the Holy Spirit can effect individuals in that way, but not every time you see a service, not two or three times a week, or every night on television.

On the other hand, if I attend a Baptist or Methodist service I do not feel as though I have been to a Church service, although I have had Spirit experiences in a Baptist Church; one being an Exorcism.
I Am, l as always.

Victor G

 
Hi All :)

Been following this thread since the outset, figuring I might attempt a few words eventually. Maybe I’ll jump in now. Hmmm….swan dive or belly buster? Either way, I gotta say:

I see Music as a multi-versed language in itself. I often wonder if the first Word ever spoken was “musical”. I like to think so. In fact, much of language is actually rather musical to my ears. Considering the fact that both oral and written Traditions dating back to “beginnings” continue to preserve, create and utilize what we perceive as “musical” in worship leaves me wondering if there might not have been more music in those grunts and groans we often attribute to the prehistoric folks who contributed things like fire and the wheel. And…indulge me for a moment, please…did Jesus sing? Well, probably at least at his “Bar Mitzvah”, wouldn’t you think? (I hope my Jewish friends will forgive me if I am a little off in my wording there, but I am fairly confident you know what I am trying to convey.)

Having been pretty deeply involved in the music ministries of three Protestant Christian churches of different denominations, as well as having a great interest in the music of all religions and cultures, I’d say that if one is open to a spiritual appreciation of music, one will no doubt find it. I honestly do not think that one person can determine for another whether an experience involving music (or anything else, for that matter) is spiritual or emotional. I think there is probably too much emphasis on division in this area anyway. I’m not saying there isn’t a difference, but it makes sense to me that a certain amount of emotion is a natural result of any spiritual experience. I might even go so far as to suggest that how we follow up on these resulting emotions is indicative of the spirit we perceive or receive within the music. I’d like to also add that Music is sometimes misunderstood or misappropriated. But it would take a lot of typing and thought to elaborate on that here, and my energy level is too low for that at present, plus I don’t wish to derail….

Even though most of my physical churchgoing experience has over the years been hosted by the Baptists and Methodists, I love the inspiration and beauty I find in Gregorian chants, in Eastern Traditions, in the offerings of a Jewish cantor, in the indescribable strains of calls to worship in many places. It may sometimes reach beyond my present understanding, but then that is what music can do.

Well, I’ve rattled on long enough here, but on a lighter note (oh the joy of an unexpected pun that just flows out from the fingers!): I have to comment on a couple of items in the thread. Regarding the “secret places” from which the clergy seem to “appear”: Hehe, I’ve been in them—they are just dressing rooms and offices where works and people are prepared for service. They are rooms that need cleaning and maintenance, and they are places where tears, joy, laughter, heartache, confessions, Love, Wisdom, and even Music are shared. And I can certainly relate to Victor’s comments about the awesome experience of being totally alone in a church preparing the music. I must admit that I was a bit confused about the exorcism comment in relation to the Baptists, because I have been a Baptist of a couple of different persuasions, and I have never heard of this. But I went surfing, and there it was, so surprise to me! Maybe I didn’t know all of this because of my gender or something….lol…;) :)

InPeace,
InLove
 
Regarding the “secret places” from which the clergy seem to “appear”: Hehe, I’ve been in them—they are just dressing rooms and offices where works and people are prepared for service. They are rooms that need cleaning and maintenance, and they are places where tears, joy, laughter, heartache, confessions, Love, Wisdom, and even Music are shared.

InPeace,
InLove

I go back there all the time, now. As a child, it was a "mystical place".:)

My family went to an A&W drive-in once when I was a very young. My dad ordered into the speaker and the food magically appeared, hanging from a tray on the door. I puzzled over that for years until I realized that I must have had my head down when the waitress brought it.:D

Same thing with the preachers.

Thanks for jumping in.

Regards,
Mark
 
Music is a key to the emotions of man.... They are passionate... On either side of the scale... The kind, soft and angelic side... And the fast, hard, anger side.... Either way music is a way to set a mood.... Such as romantic meal for two... a scary scene in a movie... a heroic scene in a movie.... a long morning in a church.... :)
 
InLove:
Nice to meet you. Thought I would take a few minutes respite from work, that being a fourth thesis for this site. My music goes back to the age of nine, a prodigy. The first music was that of the inflections of the human voice! As mentioned, I also serve as a Lector. We read one set of scriptures each from the Old and New Testament. In between we we 'read' a Psalm. It is called a Psalmody! The practice goes back thousands of years to the old story tellers, or as they became known, the 'singers'. As you probably know, the Psalms are really songs. They were spoken rather than 'sung' as we know music today, and King David is probably one of the foremost 'singers' or 'story-tellers' of old. The 'singer' could be accompanied by a musical instrument, usually just a single note that kept a basic beat. The story of Genesis is probably one of the oldest 'stories' used by the ancients. So when a Lector reads the Scriptures, they are truly, 'singing a story' especially when they read the Psalms.

As for Jesus, I think you may have had the same thought I have had. When Jesus read in the Synagogue he was acting as an ancient 'story-teller'. If he read a Psalm, then he was carrying on the tradition of the ancients as a 'singer'. And I do not believe that your gender has anything to do with your intellect or your 'spiritual' endeavors. We each accept what we are, and in the end, it is all ONE thing, yes?
I Am, as always.

Victor G
 
Victor!

I'd like to attend your liturgical Church and learn more about it. Does it sport a crescent moon in place of a cross? I ask because I was unaware that any Lutheran used the Qur'an to teach that the Gospels were corrupted. Is that not an innovation for a church? I definitely see some Lutheran beliefs regarding Law vs Gospel in your writings; however, I was unaware that any denied the last supper, the sacrifice, crucifixion and resurrection. Once the latter is denied then I should think a church would find it wrong to sport a cross.

While I interpret the Qur'an differently regarding crucifixion, I am just as happy to prostrate in a mosque as I am to share communion in a church. I'm clearly not mainstream either. I sincerely would like to learn more about this liturgical church because it 'sounds' innovative. Is it just outside of Atlanta?
 
HI often wonder if the first Word ever spoken was “musical”. I like to think so.
ever been in an om circle of thousands? the wavering vibration is incredibly musical...much like that box the Hindu's open and close during chants...

I think the first sound an aum as the universe vibrated could have very well instigated the big bang....of course I think aum could also be pronounced (or sung) as I Am, in another language...
 
InLove said:
And…indulge me for a moment, please…did Jesus sing?


"And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matthew 26:30

Jesus and His disciples sang right after the Last Supper.
 
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