Music and Worship

[wil]

thought I should post this example of music and worship...

The tribes are spread all over the countryside...in the morning of the day celebrating the birth of all...it is celebrated in silence...from the time you awake....you here nature...the rustling of the trees, the movement of the animals...the songs of the birds and the rustling of humans waking up and preparing meals...in silence.

If it hasn't happened already a hole is dug in the center of the great meadow, a fallen tree is selected, debarked, hauled to the center and planted. There are folks sitting in the meadow in prayer, there are folks in walking meditation, there are folks finishing up chores at camp...and the crew finishes tamping the ground and laying out the bark, mementos of life are hung from the tree which stands alone in the meadow...

The tribes individually and in groups begin coming in, from the woods, from the valleys, from the canyons...a circle around the tree...the aum starts reverberating...as more come in the circle grows and grows till you can't see the other side...or if you can it is just line of color and flesh across the way...a line seperating the meadow from the trees...or from sky...and the circle grows...and the aum is all you hear.

Eventually the children come up from kid's camp, with flags and banners, colorfully dressed and parading into the meadow as they form an innercircle....The sun is high in the sky the circle collapses on its center in joy the silence is broken and the drumming, dancing and eating starts...the drumming and dancing continues into the night...it is ceremony, it is worship, it is celebration....it is an experience to behold.

 

[cyberpi]

I find the same effect can be had playing in a band or orchestra. Especially a smaller group like a jazz band or a brass ensemble that practice enough times to really get tight. There is an alignment, a tightness, or a tuning between the minds of each individual. Kind of like birds that fly in a formation. In fact any kind of structured group dance or even heal pounding military or marching band can have a similar effect. As I see it, Muslims lined up in prayer is nearly identical to a Gregorian chant. There is a coordination, a simultaneous movement, a simultaneous action in the minds of individuals. It is a powerful reinforcement. Which can be negative.... anything to involve a group in simultaneous or coordinated action is a powerful reinforcement. I agree with Francis King where individuals get hooked by euphoria and don't realize it. Individuals can be driven away from independent judgment. Group values are more easily accepted as sort of a groupthink. Afterall, being independent and judgmental might require giving up that euphoria and instead being in dischord with a group.

Has anyone seen the animated movie, "Happy Feet"? It goes well with this thread and that documentary film, "March of the Penguins". While "Happy Feet" is a children's film, the coordination that is made possible by computer graphic rendering and then projected onto penguins is extraordinary. Its plot and music go together.

 

[Victor]

cyberpi:
Do not get me wrong, the Lutheran Church is almost Catholic in its form since it was derived from the Catholic faith. We are not as formal but retain a reflection of the Mass. We have a Cross, not a Crucifix, hanging above the Altar.

I teach an advanced class on Sunday Morning. We search many forms of sacred writings to add to our knowledge of the scriptures and the history of the Church in its beginnings. We often search beyond the Bible for our small group believes that God spoke to many, in various ways, not just to one. The Bible, with its 1600 different translations, is not the only Word God sent to Believers. The Quran contains much of Christian history in its revelations concerning, Mary, Anna, Elizabeth, Zachariah, and Jesus as Messiah! The Lutheran Church does not delve into these areas, nor do the Catholics, or most of the Christian sects. But due to the open mind of our particular Church we are permitted to search with freedom beyond normal limits. Many churches would not permit our method of discovery.

My own PERSONAL life has been led by the Spirit. I was called out of the Church to serve God at His bidding. Most of what I write for this site may well be in direct contradiction to the churches teachings. Most assuridly, The Pauline Conspiracy, proves that point. I have been led to believe that it has influenced many. The thesis I am now editing will literally blow the lid off the conventional Church and its teachings, but it is necessary to voice MY PERSONAL OPINION as to the true nature of Jesus, John, their ministries and their priestly and political innovations in first century Palestine!

The Church will be hard pressed to keep their composure, but then as I look
at it, ignorance finds fertile ground in closed minds!

I thank you for your inquiry. You might visit any Lutheran Church in Atlanta, mine is in Forest Park, the only one and it has a very small congregation.
I Am, as always.

Victor G

 

[cyberpi]

Victor, sent you a PM... I have to be in Atlanta twice this year and would like to visit. Thanks.

 

[Victor]

To All Good People:
I have read the many comments on this subject and have found them to have been written in a polite and understanding manner. They vary in many ways, but then, God loves diversity. But I am afraid there is another side to this subject upon which I must comment simply because of the world in which we live.

Music and worship have a dark side! They can also conjure up images of prejudice, discord, and hatred. In the small area in which I live, as poor as it is, there are those in other sects of Christianity who believe that music in a worship service is of the Devil! They condemn those of us who have music in our services and they are vehement when they condemn those who use it.
There are several Christian Churches here that condemn our manner of worship; they believe that worship using a form of the mass to any extent is sacrilege! They believe that celebrating the Communion as a Sacrament is evil; that it is wrong, and some even say that it is demonic!

Hard to believe? I remember when our little church was being organized; there were some good Christian folks who thought it so evil that they fired gunshots through the front of our church building on more than one occasion.
Why? Because we were Lutherans.

And this does not just extend to music and our set forms of worship because we worship in other ways. We worship by expressing our Faith in study where others, even of our own religion, condemn us for going. To learn of Torah, to investigate the beginnings of our own Christianity religion through the
Jewish-Christian movement in the Jerusalem Church, to study and comment on Paul’s missionary journeys whether in the negative or the positive, to learn of the revelations of Islam’s great Prophet (pbuh), to view Jesus in a manner not condoned by the ‘Church’; these things are condemned and hated by many. Even the comments we make in our writings on this site can conjure up hatred and thoughts of violence against us.

Believe me, I have felt the harsh judgment of many for daring to express myself in our church and on this site through my simple theses. So I am forced to note that even in the hospitality of the deep Southern
part of the United States, music and worship and even our religious writings can create an atmosphere of hatred and violence against us as individuals. Even in the class that I lead, we were forced to post a warning that it might be considered controversial! This in our own Church because we dare to study what others do not understand?

Well, I am too old to worry about it. I don’t have that much longer to live. I just want those of us who share our thoughts and our faith on this site and others, to know that religious freedom is not as free as we might believe. Whether or not it carries God's blessings, it can just as easily carry men's hatred.
I Am, as always.

Victor G

 

[Prober]

Even David, when he "danced before the Lord" was criticized by his wife for making a fool of himself.

 

[cyberpi]

There are several Christian Churches here that condemn our manner of worship; they believe that worship using a form of the mass to any extent is sacrilege! They believe that celebrating the Communion as a Sacrament is evil; that it is wrong, and some even say that it is demonic!

Victor you surprised me... now I'm confused. In your writing, 'Pauline Conspiracy' you wrote:

Thus we learn that the Communion, in its present form, is not something instituted by Jesus or his disciples, but by Paul. What more damning evidence do we need to convict? With what horror do we now see that which has been brought into the light, as Jesus promised? The entire principle upon which the modern church is founded, and its primary sacrament, is not from Jesus or the gospels, but from Paul.

and had concluded:

The 'fire' that he lit burned innocents at the stake; they were hanged, strangled, impaled, beheaded, and stoned to death... so easily misled, so many died, all for the desires of one man. And of the power that led him? It must be considered Satan's greatest victory since Adam and Eve were banished from the garden.

Then in 'an affair on golgotha' you said:

Mark this well. He, Paul, inserted the words that were later to become the basis of the Communion sacrament practiced by the Church. This do in remembrance of me, are not the words of Jesus, they were never part of the original Gospels, but are an addendum taken from I Corinthians.

Do you see my puzzlement? For a method of worship that you've judged against with words, you indicate here that some 'Christian Churches' condemn your group or church for. Is that a form of reverse psychology? Are you the author of those works?

there were some good Christian folks who thought it so evil that they fired gunshots through the front of our church building on more than one occasion. Why? Because we were Lutherans.

That would be an example of condemning. Not good.

Even the comments we make in our writings on this site can conjure up hatred and thoughts of violence against us. Believe me, I have felt the harsh judgment of many for daring to express myself in our church and on this site through my simple theses.

Do you expect your words to not be judged? Judgment for judgment?

So I am forced to note that even in the hospitality of the deep Southern part of the United States, music and worship and even our religious writings can create an atmosphere of hatred and violence against us as individuals.

I find that people have souls, whereas viruses do not.

My own PERSONAL life has been led by the Spirit. I was called out of the Church to serve God at His bidding. Most of what I write for this site may well be in direct contradiction to the churches teachings. Most assuridly, The Pauline Conspiracy, proves that point. I have been led to believe that it has influenced many. The thesis I am now editing will literally blow the lid off the conventional Church and its teachings, but it is necessary to voice MY PERSONAL OPINION as to the true nature of Jesus, John, their ministries and their priestly and political innovations in first century Palestine!

Thank you for the open door to visit your unconventional church. I see from your words that your writings are only your PERSONAL OPINION. I see some of that although the writings claim otherwise. I do still wish to visit for my own education to better understand where the beliefs are coming from.

 

[17th Angel]

And…indulge me for a moment, please…did Jesus sing?

Yup vocals, for the Beatles... Until they had issues and musical differences, and They put "bigger than jesus" on their album...

 

[InLove]

Yup vocals, for the Beatles... Until they had issues and musical differences, and They put "bigger than jesus" on their album...

That probably wasn't so much a disgreement between Jesus and the Fab Four as it was their respective fan clubs.

InPeace,
InLove

 

[wil]

That probably wasn't so much a disgreement between Jesus and the Fab Four as it was their respective fan clubs.

Great observation!

 

[LeoSalinas22]

Even David, when he "danced before the Lord" was criticized by his wife for making a fool of himself.

i have been looking for this scripture for over a week now. you have to tell me where this is. please hurry for i must know. it means a great deal to me if you tell me soon. thanks.

 

[wil]

i have been looking for this scripture for over a week now. you have to tell me where this is. please hurry for i must know. it means a great deal to me if you tell me soon. thanks.

2 Samuel 6:14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets. 16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

 

[Prober]

and...
20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.

23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

(source: King James Version: 2 Kings (2 Samuel): 2 Kings (2 Samuel) Chapter 6)

 

[LeoSalinas22]

2 Samuel 6:14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets. 16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

praise the Lord, wil. i had asked God to reveal this scripture to me because previously i had only heard it by word of mouth and lo and behold, here it is. thank you, wil. but most of all, i thank you, my Sovereign Lord, Creator of heaven and earth, may your Name be blessed unto eternity. amen and amen.

 

[wil]

amplified... 14And David danced before the Lord with all his might, clad in a linen ephod [a priest's upper garment]. 15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the Lord with shouting and with the sound of the trumpet.
16As the ark of the Lord came into the City of David, Michal, Saul's daughter [David's wife], looked out of the window and saw King David leaping and dancing before the Lord, and she despised him in her heart.



the message...David, ceremonially dressed in priest's linen, danced with great abandon before God. The whole country was with him as he accompanied the Chest of God with shouts and trumpet blasts. But as the Chest of God came into the City of David, Michal, Saul's daughter, happened to be looking out a window. When she saw King David leaping and dancing before God, her heart filled with scorn.


Reminds me of some who were known to dance in front of the house till the wee hours of the night...

When the security deposit for the rent was discussed the landlord pulled out a very thick file of complaints from the neighbor his favorite of which referred to the tenants dancing and cavorting naked in the front yard.

me thinks she was looking out yonder window with scorn...

 

[LeoSalinas22]

and...
20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself!

21 And David said unto Michal, It was before the LORD, which chose me before thy father, and before all his house, to appoint me ruler over the people of the LORD, over Israel: therefore will I play before the LORD.

22 And I will yet be more vile than thus, and will be base in mine own sight: and of the maidservants which thou hast spoken of, of them shall I be had in honour.

23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

(source: King James Version: 2 Kings (2 Samuel): 2 Kings (2 Samuel) Chapter 6)

let me tell you a story, prober, regards to this. previously i had only heard about this by word of mouth. i fell in love with this story because it reminds me of my wife how she thinks i look like a fool when i exalt Gods Name above even my own family. hope you understand that. it reminds me that this fleshly temple is only for our Husband and david demonstrated that and you know what? he didn't care who was watching him or what they thought of him. he was dancing for God. i mean who does that now a days lilke this? i mean dancing half naked for God? it is beatiful. amazing. i am going to have to do that one of these days. i am so serious when i say that because i love dancing. the story i was going to say was about a time when my best friends wife asked me why i don't go "clubbing" anymore. lo and behold this story that i had only heard by word of mouth, i started to tell her about it and explain it. of course she didn't understand this. she is a woman. she doesn't love God the way i do. from this conversation i started to tell my brothers and friends about God. of course they all got offended because they thought i was preaching. i guess they weren't ready to hear about God. but then again it is very rare that people are ready to hear about Him. so strange, though, this reminds of the way native americans would dance for their gods or god, don't really know. anyways, thank you so much, prober. but most of all, praise the Lord, thanks be to Him, the Ancient of Days. may His Name be hallowed. His Kingdom come, His will be done. amen and amen.

 

[Prober]

Great story Leo!

"...the natural man percieveth not the things of the spirit..."

I like David because he is genuine. Fights with all his might, makes big mistakes, repents sincerely and gives his all to G-d.

P.S. You're welcome - Praise G-d!

 

[Dondi]

2 Samuel 6:14 David, wearing a linen ephod, danced before the LORD with all his might, 15 while he and the entire house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouts and the sound of trumpets. 16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.

By the way, this was the scripture Kevin Bacon used to justify having a dance, contrary to John Lithgrow's preaching, in that small mid-western town in Footloose.

 

[LeoSalinas22]

By the way, this was the scripture Kevin Bacon used to justify having a dance, contrary to John Lithgrow's preaching, in that small mid-western town in Footloose.

really!? i have to watch that movie now. i had watched it before but had no knowledge of God then, so it just flew by mind. didn't even notice it. strange, how thru God's eyes you see things there that weren't there before.

 

[Victor]

cyberpi:
Sorry if this is disjointed or hurried, but I am currently overwhelmed with two thesis and lesson plans, but I would not make you wait for a response.

In all you say you appear to be correct. What I have indicated is that we all have a PERSONAL choice of worship. It should be free from condemnation on the part of others. God speaks to us in many ways. One may choose to follow any path they desire. That path should be free of earthly impediments in the form of violence and prejudice. What one accepts as 'truth' is truth only to that individual. They should be free to pursue it without fear of violence or condemnation. As for myself, I normally do not take Communion knowing its origins and its purpose in Paul's mind, however when I do, it is for reasons other than the dictates of normal Lutheran doctrine. That also is my privilege! It is called, free will!

My writing on Paul, stands! It is for the most part, historical! It is ALL
based on his own words and his own actions. I am not alone in my consideration of the man, his actions toward others, including his involvement in violence and murder, and his doctrines. I have provided those references, which you may choose to ignore if you wish. It is your right to do so! It is my freedom, as it is for others, to disagree or agree with his efforts just as we are free to agree or disagree with whatever is posted on this site. Paul is no more holy than any of us!

As far as the Church I attend, it is not strange and unusual. It is a very small, but a normal Evangelical Lutheran Church. All differ in one way or another.

Do I sense hostility in your typing? Thus far your posts seem to have been in the negative. I would certainly hope I am reading you incorrectly. I would make this suggestion. If you are intellectually and spiritually inclined to disagree so vehemently with the thesis, Brian has offered a place for a positive response on this site for years. I would certainly welcome a comparative work on your part. As for visiting our church, you are always welcome regardless of the spirit of that encounter.

I will tell you this, if I may still consider us 'friendly' correspondants'. I already know how my life on this plane of existence will end; it will end in violence! I have known it from the beginning. It does not deter me from continuing in that which I consider my, 'calling'.
I Am, as always.

Victor G