The Trinity of Christianity

[BlaznFattyz]

One has to remember that the word, god, and the spirit all existed as one from eternity before the world was created. God does not create god, god always exists. the thought of what they were to become was always there since god is all knowing and outside of our time. in fact, before we were created, the beginning and end of us, and the birth and glorification and annointing of christ was already conceived. there was no reason for christ to come in human flesh if we were not created, there would be no reason for the holy spirit to teach us after christ left if we were not created, but nothing was made that was not thought out. therefore, the trinity is gods manifestation to reach us so he may be known within our time and our dimension because we were created by him so we might know him and love him that created us. so god manifested himself in different ways so we might be saved and save others. Not of different natures, but of the same, not against or competing persons, but exactly the same. that is the beauty of the "trinity", for lack of a better word.

there is a special moment in christianity that brings about the son and the begotten son to us . and that is the birth of christ, the beloved son of god born to die for our sins, and the raising in triumph the glorified begotten son of god, the saviour who died and rose again. although god sent that part of himself, the word, that is the acting agent of creation, who was for all eternity to god; the word, his beloved son, and the glorified begotten son that would be the elect one to do what god already knew needed to be done--to reconcile us back to him; however, not yet would man perceive this during his time before christ was born, except for the prophets and john the baptist who would proclaim his coming and saw visions of his glory. that special moment in time that god is pleased and makes the wise men and angels worship him because he is god on earth with us, that is the birth of christ. no other god is
worshipped but god, so know that god proclaims his son as god to us. god is also pleased in his beloved son at the time of baptism, where all three manifestations of god appear to witness to us they are all in agreement of the son.

however, there is that other special moment that something amazing happens, christ dies on the cross, not only reappears as spirit, but rather his body is resurrected! And it is here that god has spoken through the prophets, and declares to all those that witness the event, that Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God, what that means is jesus who thought he was forsaken in pain and death as a man dying, was begotten in life in a glorified state with a resurrected body as god triumphant. he is firstborn of all creation through his death and resurrection. firstborn meaning, preeminence. he is first to achieve what no man ever could. he is the saviour of mankind through his faith and obedience in doing what he was sent to do. and because of that, it is through his perfection and sacrifice that our sins are forgiven so we might be cleansed and be able to come to the presence of a holy god, the father. he is perfect, good, sinless, holy, righteous, glorified with power and glory on the throne back to god from which he came from eternity, but now as Jesus Christ, because we were created and needed a saviour. there is no other, and God takes these special moments to declare his Son, Jesus Christ to us so there is no mistake of who he is--He is the word, the son, the lamb, the saviour, and he is our God from eternity that sits on the throne, who came down from the heavens and died, yet conquered death and lives forevermore, so we might have life in him and one day be resurrected and taken up in a glorified state in both spirit and body like Christ.

 

[kenod]

Are we splitting hairs? I don't understand what is the difference between Oneness and Trinitarians and does it really matter?

Throughout history, there have been those prepared to give their lives for the difference. I would say it mattered to them.

Three in Oneness because God is the Father, Son, and Spirit, He is One. The three persons together comprise the One God throughout Eternity.

For the Oneness believer, three "persons" equals three gods, and is contrary to the truth of the Scriptures.

 

[Janz]

Throughout history, there have been those prepared to give their lives for the difference. I would say it mattered to them.




For the Oneness believer, three "persons" equals three gods, and is contrary to the truth of the Scriptures.

Sorry if I offended but I have not heard of any religious wars fought over this teaching(I am being sincere). Has there been a time when that threat existed? So the word "person" is what Oneness holds as being contrary to the truth of Scripture? I still don't understand..I don't believe in 3 Gods. I guess I will have to study this some more. Thanks for answering my questions.

I was just recently reading a book written by a Messanic Jew, Andrew Gabriel Roth, called "Ruach Qadim: Aramaic Origins of the New Testament" and he was also arguing for the Oneness of Elohim/Alaha. Hmm
all new to me. The older I grow, the more I am told that all my beliefs are contrary to the truth of Scripture. What is a follower of Christ to do?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

For the Oneness believer, three "persons" equals three gods, and is contrary to the truth of the Scriptures.

for the oneness believer, one has to believe what god has said, and that is the son jesus christ is lord god as well. these are not competing gods, this is god who manifests himself so he might be known to us, oneness in nature and spirit, all witnessing and in agreement of each other. we know god because he manifested himself as a burning bush to moses, he led his people out of captivity from slavery of pharoah. we know god because he manifested himself as jesus christ to lead his people out of captivity from slavery of sin. we know god because he sent his holy spirit to continue the work of christ and continue to save others and teach the truth of his word.

 

[Quahom1]

Throughout history, there have been those prepared to give their lives for the difference. I would say it mattered to them.




For the Oneness believer, three "persons" equals three gods, and is contrary to the truth of the Scriptures.

Then of course you accept nothing about the Nicene Creed, and what Jesus said about Himself and the Father, and the Holy Spirit and His relationship with them (particularly the Father).

v/r

Q

 

[Janz]

^^^^^
Now that one had me falling off my chair, rolling on the floor, laughing out loud. "Slain in the Spirit" and a "Holy Roller" all manifested in one human body.

Kenod,
I hope that you realize that this joke was not about Oneness Pentecostals, if that is indeed your church. I was talking about myself as I am a Charismatic/Contemplative Presbyterian "closet" Roman Catholic (confusing, isn't it?) so I hope that you did not take offense at my post.

Many Thanks to you, Jamarz

 

[kenod]

Sorry if I offended but I have not heard of any religious wars fought over this teaching(I am being sincere). Has there been a time when that threat existed? So the word "person" is what Oneness holds as being contrary to the truth of Scripture? I still don't understand..I don't believe in 3 Gods. I guess I will have to study this some more. Thanks for answering my questions.

A person who is pro-life believes abortion is killing an unborn child, no matter how much a pro-choice believer says it is not. It all depends on where you are standing.

Nor have I heard of any religious wars fought over this teaching (Would a real Christian fight a war over his beliefs?) but the best known martyr for belief in the Oneness of God is probably Michael Servetus (Miguel Serveto) 1511–53. He was condemned to the stake by both the RC Church and the leaders of the Reformation. His story is told in the book “Hunted Heretic” by Roland Bainton.

One of the better known teachers in more recent times of the Oneness of God was William Branham (1909-1965).

Thank you for your concern about causing any offence. I am not a member of any denomination … I just call myself a Christian, although I know at least one forum that will not allow me to post in the “Christians only” section because I do not accept Trinitarian doctrine.

 

[kenod]

Then of course you accept nothing about the Nicene Creed, and what Jesus said about Himself and the Father, and the Holy Spirit and His relationship with them (particularly the Father).
v/r Q

The Nicene-Constantinople Creed was not finalised until nearly 300 years after the last book in the NT was written. I think many things gradually evolved that did not correctly represent the original teachings of the apostolic church.

Jesus Christ was both fully human and fully divine. He was not the second person of the Trinity incarnate; he was the “fullness of the Godhead bodily”, as the Scriptures declare.

The first person did not send the second person; God Almighty Himself came to earth and lived in a human body called the Son of God. The Trinitarian doctrine makes Jesus Christ only a part of God, when he was ALL of God.

Luke 1:35
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Hebrews 1:5
For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 14:10
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

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[kenod]

for the oneness believer, one has to believe what god has said, and that is the son jesus christ is lord god as well. these are not competing gods, this is god who manifests himself so he might be known to us, oneness in nature and spirit, all witnessing and in agreement of each other. we know god because he manifested himself as a burning bush to moses, he led his people out of captivity from slavery of pharoah. we know god because he manifested himself as jesus christ to lead his people out of captivity from slavery of sin. we know god because he sent his holy spirit to continue the work of christ and continue to save others and teach the truth of his word.

I agree with you. God has manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the One God revealing Himself in three different roles or offices; not three distinct co-equal persons.

 

[Quahom1]

I agree with you. God has manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the One God revealing Himself in three different roles or offices; not three distinct co-equal persons.

That is your opinion, not the opinion of the majority of Christians. To insist that yours is the correct opinion has no more merit than for others to insist yours is wrong and theirs is correct.

v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

That is your opinion, not the opinion of the majority of Christians. To insist that yours is the correct opinion has no more merit than for others to insist yours is wrong and theirs is correct.
v/rQ

Correct

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[BlaznFattyz]

I agree with you. God has manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It is the One God revealing Himself in three different roles or offices; not three distinct co-equal persons.

in what context are they not distinct co-equal persons?

 

[Quahom1]

in what context are they not distinct co-equal persons?

I don't know. I find irony in the fact that people consider the Bible the inspired Word of God, yet when pegged with the fact that Genesis specifically identifies three personages confirring at the same time, and specifically identifies at least two by name (the Father, and the Holy Spirit), then we know Jesus Identifies Himself (as does John) as the Word, the Alpha and the Omega, and we go back to Genesis where it specifically states "And God 'Said'", which to me means "spoke" or gave "Word"...

Then we go back to the Baptism of Jesus, and there is notation that while Jesus was standing there (soaking wet), the symbol of the Holy Spirit decsended upon Him, and at the same exact moment that this all occured a Voice was heard from the heavens "This Is My Son, in Whom I Am Most Pleased"...

well, it doesn't take rocket science to figure that out. Unless Jesus was a magician and a ventrilloquist...

my thoughts, expressed by the fingers of my body, at the insistence of my Spirit...(but it's all me baby)

v/r

Q

edit: maybe, just maybe we are dealing with a schitzophrenic God?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

their manifestations are different; however the spirit is the same, and that is God. that is the sole reason christ was killed, because there was no doubt that he made himself out to be equal with god. the holy spirit even revealed god to some yet they blasphemed his work. those that believed him saw god and were saved, those that denied him sought to kill him. all that is of the spirit of god is equal with god because it proceeds from him.

 

[lunamoth]

Re: well

it sounds like whomever made the interpretation is trying to understand god intellectualy, which is to say by means of understanding on a mundane level, which is impossible because to understand god you have to transcend this mundane reality

its only logical right? that to understand something that is beyond our logic you would have to transcend the thought process to something like..intuitive understanding

amitabha

I think Zazen nailed it in the second post.

 

[Quahom1]

Re: well

I think Zazen nailed it in the second post.

But I thought, "intuition" was illogical, simply because there is no "algerbraic" set of sequences that lead to the rational conclusion...? And God, is logical is He not? Then again, we do know that man, is anything but logical, however still insists on trying to be.

My guess is that puts us collectively in, 5th grade of the school of life. That means we are just beginning to understand logic. Hardly a position of maturity to converse with the School Master on issues of any import, or life altering consequence...in logical fashion.



v/r

Q

 

[kenod]

in what context are they not distinct co-equal persons?

We all believe in one God ... the question should be "in what context are they three distinct co-equal persons?"

 

[kenod]

“The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry. This, it seems to us, is a mistake.” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm






​

Mark 9:7
And there was a cloud that overshadowed them:
and a voice came out of the cloud, saying,
This is my beloved Son: hear him.

Acts 9:3-5
And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus:
and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord?
And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest:
it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

John 3:13
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.






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Our God is not only ominpotent, and omniscient, He is also omnipresent.






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[Quahom1]

Our God is not only ominpotent, and omniscient, He is also omnipresent.


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He also presents Himself as three distinct personages.

 

[Quahom1]

John 3:13

And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
​

Interesting how this scripture is being used, considering we are left with a distinct understanding that in fact two "humans" were take up by God before their deaths. One happens to be Enoch, and the other Elihja.