I agree that humans are really screwed up

I just feel like the god created in the bible doesnt really care if humans go to hell. It seems to be in his plans. Because hes god and hge could do something about it if he wanted to. He can do anything after all, and the most advanced thing of all time thinks its ok for humans to be tormented forever. thats just not right. if you could createanything, starting with omnipotence and omniscience, and you were thinking one day "I want to create other beinbgs" why would you even think about including a way for them to get tormented for ever. you have the ability to think about everything and anything, and one of the things you actually create is hell, and a way for humans, your creations, to go there. you created a reality where your creatures get tormented forever. great.

not only that, you let the devil running around trying to decieve people. why the heck are you doing that? a test? you created us, you know how we react to things. we are all confronted with the same reality and some of us will pass the test and the others will fail.

so obviously you must have made humans different because other wise they would all think alike, but they dont. so some of the ones you created will go to hell no matter what, why? did you make them that way?

people are dumb... real dumb. and they are so misguided and hopeless and they hurt each other and get themselves into ridiculous situations. but they, we are here. the people trying to struggle. and god is... invisible. he doesnt show up, he makes dumb ass humans decide their own destiny but in the end its all on faith so they might be totally wrong, and then he eternally torments whoever he feels like it after ending the world.......

it just seems insane
 
shadowman said:
I just feel like the god created in the bible doesnt really care if humans go to hell. It seems to be in his plans. Because hes god and hge could do something about it if he wanted to. He can do anything after all, and the most advanced thing of all time thinks its ok for humans to be tormented forever. thats just not right. if you could createanything, starting with omnipotence and omniscience, and you were thinking one day "I want to create other beinbgs" why would you even think about including a way for them to get tormented for ever. you have the ability to think about everything and anything, and one of the things you actually create is hell, and a way for humans, your creations, to go there. you created a reality where your creatures get tormented forever. great.

not only that, you let the devil running around trying to decieve people. why the heck are you doing that? a test? you created us, you know how we react to things. we are all confronted with the same reality and some of us will pass the test and the others will fail.

so obviously you must have made humans different because other wise they would all think alike, but they dont. so some of the ones you created will go to hell no matter what, why? did you make them that way?

people are dumb... real dumb. and they are so misguided and hopeless and they hurt each other and get themselves into ridiculous situations. but they, we are here. the people trying to struggle. and god is... invisible. he doesnt show up, he makes dumb ass humans decide their own destiny but in the end its all on faith so they might be totally wrong, and then he eternally torments whoever he feels like it after ending the world.......

it just seems insane
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Trying to tell God to "fix" your broken toy? :) Gotta let Him fix it "His way", because then it will stay fixed...and you'd be happy with the results.

v/r

Joshua
 
shadowman said:
god creates the universe and the game that he puts humans in (reality to a christian is essentially a maze where they struggle to hope that they will get heaven when they die)

he is the controller, and his system causes humans to go to hell.
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If someone is in control then they are responsible. If a parent controls a child's life making every choice and decision for them, whether in an effort to help or destroy, then they have smothered the child and are responsible for it. You are effectively saying that someone was in control of your every decision.

The person who controls information or lies is responsible. The person who commands decision making is responsible. The person who controls resources is responsible. There is a portion in all things that a person has had within their control and it is that portion that they are responsible for. There is no excuse... if a person has never had a free will to control some things then they've never lived. If they've lived then there is a portion that God has NOT been in control of.

FAITH is a matter of joint control. Think of a person who is faithful and that you can have Faith in. The person who is unfaithful took control and thus took the responsibility.

I speak somewhat as an engineer who has studied modern control theory... I know the science. Take as a system the transportation system. The stop lights, the stop signs, the location of the roads, the speed limit signs, the people who designed and built the cars... ALL do have an influence on the way people drive. However, when someone purposely runs over someone and kills them... who do you think is responsible? The people who made the system? The people who designed and built the car? God? Is it all God's fault the way someone drives their car?
 
shadowman said:
god creates the universe and the game that he puts humans in (reality to a christian is essentially a maze where they struggle to hope that they will get heaven when they die)

he is the controller, and his system causes humans to go to hell.
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LOL, no Shadow dude! He stands in front of the maze that is life and says to ANYONE who is willing to listen..."follow me, and I'll get you through". The "maze" as you call it, wasn't created by God...it was created/is created, by us...:eek: :rolleyes: :eek:
 
cyberpi said:
If the parents set the rules and tell their children to NOT destroy property or each other with a baseball bat, but a child goes on a rampage anyway to spite his parents because they have some control over him/her... would you claim that the parents have been passively aggressive?

Alternatively if a child demands independence from rules and parents, walks off on his/her own, makes poor uninformed choices and causes destruction... have the parents been passively aggressive?
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who cares? they've been negligent in their duties as a parent...they should have kicked his butt when he desperately needed it...

Don't Cyberpi...I raised two rable rowsers, and they are fine upstanding citizens serving YOU, in uniform (and no, I didn't ask them to take the oath...they did it on their own, much to my shock and suprise).

But while children, they had to toe the line, else there would have been hell to pay, for everyone else...

edit: infact, you'd be pleased I think, to know one is a Medic, combat medic. the other is a peace keeper...
 
Since when did humans design roads and traffic systems to let people have a choice over whether they will break the law or not. If those traffic engineers had the technology all cars would be automatically controlled and the only choice people would have is where they want the car to go.

If the universe is engineered to accomplish a task, like a traffic system, then there are design goals. And the better the engineer the more likely the system will meet those goals.

If the Christian system of reality is designed by god, then the design goal is to send people to hell.
 
shadowman said:
Since when did humans design roads and traffic systems to let people have a choice over whether they will break the law or not. If those traffic engineers had the technology all cars would be automatically controlled and the only choice people would have is where they want the car to go.

If the universe is engineered to accomplish a task, like a traffic system, then there are design goals. And the better the engineer the more likely the system will meet those goals.

If the Christian system of reality is designed by god, then the design goal is to send people to hell.
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Lol, eh, 1913, Detroit, Michigan

In effect now...it is called "public transportation".

So, God is an "engineer" who's design is flawed...

You really hate God, don't you? You can't even grant Him His creation in all it's splendor (something you can't possibly create yourself).

Yep, you got it. God erred. He made you, me and everyone else, might as well flood us all to hell...

oh, wait! Been done once before! And there was a promise...no more floods to wipe out man. (no more attempts to wipe out man was the promise in reality).

So...got a better idea?
 
of course I got a better idea. just give me omnipotence and omniscience and no one will ever suffer again.

you could have a better idea too if you put your imagination to it.


Im not saying its a flawed design. by definition, whatever god does is perfect right? its flawed only if you consider a design that involves people going to hell as not good, then its flawed. if you think hell is fine, and think that a creator "might as well send everyone to hell" then I guess the design is perfect. if you have great power you have great responsibility, of course this comes from my puny human moral code, and I am way fallen, so what do I know. maybe its right that: "He witheth power shall doeth as he pleaseth and no one shall questioneth his might" this god of yours reminds me of a few leadership type people in history...
 
Quahom1 said:
God erred.

oh, wait! Been done once before! And there was a promise...no more floods to wipe out man. (no more attempts to wipe out man was the promise in reality).
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*contently sighs*

Anyway... A promise to not attempt to wipe out man? Am I reading this right? What does a war do? Attempt to wipe out nations..... What did Hitler attempt to do to the jews? Oh erradicate them... Earthquakes... Hurricanes, tsunami's.... And so on and so forth... Black Plague..... I have seen quite a few attempts at wiping out mankind... ;/ Doesn't seem a very strong held promise.
 
shadowman said:
of course I got a better idea. just give me omnipotence and omniscience and no one will ever suffer again.
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And how do you supposed you are going to accomplish this without violating anyone's freewill? You propose to make an end of suffering, you are going to have to change people, for we seem to be pretty good at causing own own suffering. How do you propose do this?
 
17th Angel said:
*contently sighs*

Anyway... A promise to not attempt to wipe out man? Am I reading this right? What does a war do? Attempt to wipe out nations..... What did Hitler attempt to do to the jews? Oh erradicate them... Earthquakes... Hurricanes, tsunami's.... And so on and so forth... Black Plague..... I have seen quite a few attempts at wiping out mankind... ;/ Doesn't seem a very strong held promise.
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A miracle that God hasn't completely wiped us all out by now. But then, as Al Jolsen said, "You've ain't seen nuttin' yet!" Cha-cha-cha.
 
To stop suffering without violating free will? Ill ask the current god what he is planning on doing when the kingdom finally comes! Im sure if I had omniscience and omnipotence it could be done, since by definition, if someone had those things, they could do anything... duh!

right?
 
shadowman said:
To stop suffering without violating free will? Ill ask the current god what he is planning on doing when the kingdom finally comes! Im sure if I had omniscience and omnipotence it could be done, since by definition, if someone had those things, they could do anything... duh!

right?
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If you made a creation with the ability to exercise freewill, you are basically yielding your omnipotence in favor of the human experiment. You can drag a mouse by the tail through the maze, but it wouldn't accomplish what you wanted, would it? What is needed is to figure out how to get the mouse to navigate through the maze on it's own.
 
freewill seems kind of crappy. whats so great about being free to do bad things. I ve done a lot of bad things and wish I never had the ability to inflict pain on the world and the people in it.
 
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