Keys to the Kingdom

[Muslimwoman]

anything that you do out of love, respect, and honor of god is good as long as it doesnt hurt anyone. i think many people in the world just hope that it is you making a decision; and not going along with the decision already made up for you and then you are just going along with it, all the while telling yourself you actually made the decision because it makes life work for you that way.

To be honest Blazn the truth, as usual, is somewhere in the middle. No-one asks or tells me to wear it but I do not wear it solely for religious purposes. The religious portion of my decision is that it makes me stand out less, therefore being more modest, it is also a constant reminder of my faith. The social aspect is, as I am travelling in the middle east it helps arab women to accept my presence and not fear that I am bringing my 'western sin' into their midst. However, the decision of how I dress is entirely my own, I certainly do not allow dress to be imposed upon me.

 

[bob x]

"What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support."
You are very good at jumping to conclusions Bob. Look at the bold bit. I said I in no way support the areas under Sharia law. That means I do not support the practices of the Saudi's or other areas.

Well, that is a bizarre parsing of the sentence. Naturally I parsed it as "What you are talking about are areas under Sharia law - which I in no way support." I will leave it to others to judge whether I deserve your condemnation for reading your sentence in what seemed a straightforward way-- and noting that it seemed puzzling, read that way, given your other statements of views.
However, can I now "jump to the conclusion" that when you say NO WAY to "areas under Shariah law" that you do not think there is a single area in the Muslim world that interprets and applies the law correctly?

Your prejudices run very deeply don't they. Here is another article. This is a piece form the following link. Marundupandian was the brother of the bride. So in your view, if a brother and uncle kill you then it is not an honour killing unless you are Muslim?

Marudupandian, accompanied by an uncle of Murugesan, brought her back to the village. Both were allegedly forced to drink some poisonous liquid in the presence of scores of people, who were mute witnesses to the agony of the dying couple. The bodies were burnt, leaving no evidence of the gruesome incident.

Indeed this is what I understood by "honor killing". I stand corrected that it is unique to the Muslim world, although you must admit that it is notoriously common there. In Sicily, a delitto d'onoree means that the outraged father kills the boy who dared to sleep with his daughter, where in Algeria, the father kills his daughter.
You followed up with the Nazir case, and claimed the perpetrators were not Muslim: "Greengrocer Azhar Nazir, 30, and his cousin Imran Mohammed, 17, stabbed Nazir's sister Samaira 18 times at the family home in Southall in April 2005. " I think "Imram Mohammed" is a very uncommon name among Hindus.

If you refer to me as a lump in a bag once more I am going to give up on this discussion, I pointed out that I find it offensive, so would suggest you do not use it again.

I will avoid that particular phrasing, but how can we avoid the extremely dehumanizing nature of the veil? Isn't that the whole point of the veil, to make yourself look as little like a human being as possible (Afghans would criticize your icon for not obscuring the eyes, which as JosephM has pointed out can become a focus for trying to imagine what your human appearance actually is), and to signal that the ordinary interactions which human beings have with each other are disallowed? On another board, a woman notes that Muslim women seem anti-social even with other women:
Christian Debate II

By coincidence, today I found that a couple, at least, of the Sisters of Mercy at the local hospital do wear, not just a head-scarf, but that starched white doodad, don't know what the proper term is-- not 100% the old habit as we would have seen in my younger days, but more like it than I have recently seen.

 

[Muslimwoman]

However, can I now "jump to the conclusion" that when you say NO WAY to "areas under Shariah law" that you do not think there is a single area in the Muslim world that interprets and applies the law correctly?

There is only one country in the world officially under Sharia Law at this time, that is Saudi and you are more than welcome to jump to the conclusion that I do not support their interpretations of Sharia. However, you are not welcome to jump to the conclusion that my lack of support for the Saudi regime is a rejection of my faith or the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh).

Indeed this is what I understood by "honor killing". I stand corrected that it is unique to the Muslim world, although you must admit that it is notoriously common there.

I never tried to deny that it is common among Arab and Asian muslim communities. It was common practice in the Arabian Steppes and India long before the coming of Islam and has remained until this day. It is a shameful practice that must be eliminated.

You followed up with the Nazir case, and claimed the perpetrators were not Muslim

I realised after I posted it that they were Muslim not Hindu but I think I got my point across that this is not an entirely muslim practice, as you asserted.

I will avoid that particular phrasing, but how can we avoid the extremely dehumanizing nature of the veil?

That is simply a matter of opinion. For ladies that wear the veil there is nothing dehumanising about it. Quite the opposite, you are treated as a human, not a piece of flesh.

Isn't that the whole point of the veil, to make yourself look as little like a human being as possible

I have tried my best to explain the point of the veil but you seem set in your mind that it is for 'other' purposes and clearly one of us wears the veil and one doesn't, so I shall just have to leave you to your beliefs.

On another board, a woman notes that Muslim women seem anti-social even with other women:
Christian Debate II

The link goes to a paper on 9/11. Well that is what I have always believed, if I want to know about science I should ask a music teacher I live with Muslim women, I am a Muslim woman and no we are not anti social even among ourselves, quite the opposite they are social to the point of making me uncomfortable because of my western upbringing. I have to wonder whether the woman on the other board held stereotypes akin to your own when she made her judgement about Muslim women?

By coincidence, today I found that a couple, at least, of the Sisters of Mercy at the local hospital do wear, not just a head-scarf, but that starched white doodad, don't know what the proper term is-- not 100% the old habit as we would have seen in my younger days, but more like it than I have recently seen.

I feel sure they have been there all along but our discussion would make you notice them at this time. So did you tut loudly or hide behind a bush or did you think, oh look there are a couple of nuns and they believe in G-d?

 

[bob x]

"I never tried to deny that it is common among Arab and Asian muslim communities. "
You tried to blame it on India. North Africa, however, certainly got it from Islam. I attribute it to the asymmetry in which the female is "presumed criminal": if a man has a handsome face and a woman speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for being so forward; if a woman has a pretty face and a man speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for not hiding her face.

"I think I got my point across that this is not an entirely muslim practice, as you asserted."
Yes, you did. I had not heard of such cases among non-Muslims before.

"For ladies that wear the veil there is nothing dehumanising about it. Quite the opposite, you are treated as a human, not a piece of flesh."
A human IS, among other things, a piece of flesh; I understand you don't want to be treated ONLY as a piece of flesh, but someone who hides her face from me makes it impossible for me to relate to her as I would to any other human being.

"The link goes to a paper on 9/11. "
The link was intended to go to a particular thread on the board, "Muslims", not to the strange place it sends you to instead, and I will try once more to copy a link and then give up:
Christian Debate II
It is a discussion you might find interesting, but I do not feel entitled to cut-and-paste the postings: a Muslim woman responds on the thread, explaining various possible reasons why what an American thinks of as a friendly attempt at casual conversation might be viewed by the immigrant women with suspicion and reticence.
"I have to wonder whether the woman on the other board held stereotypes akin to your own when she made her judgement about Muslim women?"
On the contrary, she was trying to treat them as humans, and finding that they would have none of it, to her dismay.

"I feel sure they have been there all along but our discussion would make you notice them at this time. "
Pictures were posted on the wall, which I assume to be recent rather than decades-old; I still have still not met face-to-face with a habited nun in my adult life (the ones I mentioned from the medieval-throwback sect were on television). I do not have occasion to wander around the hospital and meet all the staff.

 

[Muslimwoman]

You tried to blame it on India.

Rubbish. What I said is:

In Pakistan some women have been ordered to be gang raped by court officials - this is nothing to do with our religion, it is a throw back to India's old 'honour killing' days. This is another example of culture meeting religion and people thinking the religion allows it - Islam does not in any way allow the raping of women (there is the issue of slavery and sex with slaves, there is also a whole thread on that issue you can read rather than discuss it again here).

You will actually see that I was talking about Islam, in Pakistan. This was an example of how women are abused due to cultural issues, not religious. We then changed the subject when you said that honour killing was a purely Muslim event. Honour killings were normal in the arab and surrounding countries prior to Islam and some of those traits have remained, like female circumcision. That is why you will find most honour killings throughout the world are by families from the arab countries and India/Pakistan, etc. My point was that the religion does not call for this, they are examples of culture and religion being entwined.

North Africa, however, certainly got it from Islam. I attribute it to the asymmetry in which the female is "presumed criminal": if a man has a handsome face and a woman speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for being so forward; if a woman has a pretty face and a man speaks to him, she is grossly at fault for not hiding her face.

Excuse me, I live in North Africa, am a woman and am Muslim. Now let me try to guess which one of us may understand the social system, erm. Wait the answer is coming to me.

'presumed criminal' and 'grossly at fault'?? Where do you get these ideas. Allow me to explain the social dynamic. Women are not seen as criminal, we are seen as special, very special. We are to be protected, wrapped in cotton wool and respected. If a man tries to pick me up and grabs hold of my hand, I take off my shoe hit him and shout. Help arrives in 3 seconds and the man is arrested. In the bank I stand in the ladies line, this means strange men cannot brush up against me (it also means I get served a lot quicker). A womans reputation is paramount and we are responsible for protecting it but that doesn't make us presumed criminals.

A human IS, among other things, a piece of flesh; I understand you don't want to be treated ONLY as a piece of flesh, but someone who hides her face from me makes it impossible for me to relate to her as I would to any other human being.

And we, as Muslim women, choose to keep that piece of flesh private. What is important to us is our faith, our modesty, not whether you can relate to us.

It is a discussion you might find interesting, but I do not feel entitled to cut-and-paste the postings: a Muslim woman responds on the thread, explaining various possible reasons why what an American thinks of as a friendly attempt at casual conversation might be viewed by the immigrant women with suspicion and reticence.

It was a very interesting discussion and I have given it much thought. It is difficult to comment on without knowing which country the Muslim lady came from. However, culture is without doubt one reason.

I tried to remember how I was treated when I first went to Egypt. It was with outward friendliness (which is an egyptian trait) but with some suspision. We must remember that stereotypes work both ways and most Middle East countries think western women are all loose women that get drunk every night (as we generally think they are oppressed and need saved). When you get into Middle Eastern countries that don't have the tourist levels of Egypt, then the suspision level rises.

I can't say what it must feel like for an arabic woman to be taken to live in the depths of hell (which is essentially what they grow up being taught the west is, because of all the open sin) but I know if I brought my very outgoing sister in law to the UK she would shrink into a shell.

Most of the women in the Mid East are home bodies, not international travellers. They grow up with a clearly defined role, as wives and mothers. It must be very difficult to be taken out of that atmosphere. Add to that the difficulties since 9/11, the attitudes to the dress and that Muslims tend to stay in their own social circle, the ladies reaction is understandable but sad. This is where communication is required, so we all understand each others lives and can all communicate without suspision.

 

[bob x]

"What is important to us is our faith, our modesty, not whether you can relate to us"
Well, you can't have it both ways. The sight of another human being inspires warm and friendly feelings, but out of fear of those who get, shall we say, too warm, you want to cut that off. So you replace the human form with an alien form that will inspire more cold and aloof reactions. You succeed in repelling me-- but then you want to blame me for feeling repelled. You think that if I just "understand" it, I will feel less repelled (since the intensity of my repulsion is evidently more than you are really after-- but when you speak of "my modesty", of course you mean that you want males to be repelled). It isn't working: for one thing, the more I understand from you of what gender relations in the Muslim world are like, the unhealthier it all sounds. For another thing, we are dealing at bottom with visceral reactions that are not readily changed by reasoning. If you see no connection between this and the horrendous misogynist violence that is found in Muslim countries, I certainly do. You say that honor killings, genital mutilation, etc. were characteristic of "Arab" countries before Islam, but note: Egypt was NOT an Arab country before Islam; neither was the rest of North Africa; Islam brought to North Africa the worst of Arabia together with the best.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Well, you can't have it both ways.

So either we have to apply your dress code, forget our faith and change our manner of speaking in order to be accepted by you or cause repulsion? Repulsion it is then, if you desire to be that narrow minded. I still cannot fathom how anyone can judge people simply on their choice of dress. It isn't a stones throw from judging people by the country they were born in.

The sight of another human being inspires warm and friendly feelings, but out of fear of those who get, shall we say, too warm, you want to cut that off.

Fear? Please explain to me how I have demonstrated any fear of people. If I met InLove (a Christian lady) in the street I would give her a huge hug and lots of kisses, I would walk in the street holding her hand or arm, as my sister. The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith. I would be friendly and warm in conversation but I would also expect them to respect my choice not to be alone with them or be touched by them.

Perhaps one of them would like to comment on wether my choice would repulse them?

You say that honor killings, genital mutilation, etc. were characteristic of "Arab" countries before Islam, but note: Egypt was NOT an Arab country before Islam; neither was the rest of North Africa; Islam brought to North Africa the worst of Arabia together with the best.

Yes and it all belonged to the Romans before that, so I feel sure they left some rather unsavoury practices too. Female circumcision in Egypt goes back to, the experts believe, Pharonic times (est 5000 years ago). So please explain how Islam or even Arabs can be blamed for that one? That one actually came out of Africa. Islam is not at fault here, what is at fault are people and their cultural practices. I cannot speak for the whole of the Muslim population, the Quran does not allow honour killings but yes they still go on but I have found nothing that leads me to believe this practice was 'invented' by Islam.

 

[wil]

The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith.

No hugs You gotta give me the chapter and verse in the Koran that forbids it....and find verses that accept it

 

[Muslimwoman]

No hugs You gotta give me the chapter and verse in the Koran that forbids it....and find verses that accept it

And here was me thinking the voice of reason had arrived

Okay Wil, will make a deal with you, if my hubby says it's okay for me to hug you then I will but you have to ask him (hope you can duck quickly).

 

[wil]

And here was me thinking the voice of reason had arrived

Okay Wil, will make a deal with you, if my hubby says it's okay for me to hug you then I will but you have to ask him (hope you can duck quickly).

ru kiddin? surely you don't imagine I wouldn't ask...(if'n that is what is required) I've been known to convert non huggers all over!

 

[Muslimwoman]

ru kiddin? surely you don't imagine I wouldn't ask...(if'n that is what is required) I've been known to convert non huggers all over!

Do you speak arabic or you need me to send you a translation?

I am a reformed hugger, although InLove would get a damned good hugging.

 

[wil]

Do you speak arabic or you need me to send you a translation?

I am a reformed hugger, although InLove would get a damned good hugging.

Hugs require no language.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hugs require no language.

Oh you are so right, neither does laughter.

 

[bob x]

"So either we have to apply your dress code, forget our faith and change our manner of speaking in order to be accepted by you or cause repulsion?"
But you WANT me to be repelled, don't you? I would ordinarily wish to exchange smiles and casual conversation with people that I meet, but you withhold your smile and want me to put a lid on it. OK, fine: I won't treat you as I would treat a normal human being. That's what you want, that's what you get.
"The fact that I choose not to do that to Flow or 17th or Wil is by virtue of their gender, that is not 'fear' of their gender but respect for my faith"
I used to think the only problem with Arab men was that they needed to masturbate more, but now I see that what they really need are some opportunities for friendly flirtations and casual hugs.
"I still cannot fathom how anyone can judge people simply on their choice of dress."
As I keep telling you, it is not the dress itself (though I do find it ugly), but the attitude it conveys, that ordinary human interactions are forbidden. I allow you that choice (if you think I would favor laws, like some place in Europe, that forbid such dress, you are mistaken) but you want more, to be "respected" for it: no, I don't respect it.

"Yes and it all belonged to the Romans before that, so I feel sure they left some rather unsavoury practices too."
Not veiling, or honor killing: those were Islamic imports. Africa from Carthage (in modern Tunisia) to "Mauretania" (modern Morocco, not modern Mauretania) was one of the most thoroughly Romanized areas of the Empire (unlike Egypt, which was always unhappy under Roman rule) with arenas, theaters, and public baths in all the towns. The notion that women needed to hide their bodies, and should be punished by their families for failure to do so, was no part of the culture.
"Female circumcision in Egypt goes back to, the experts believe, Pharonic times (est 5000 years ago)."
I would like to see sources on that: my understanding was that Arabia got it from Ethiopia (ultimately from central Africa), and Egypt and North Africa took it up only after the Muslim conquest. (I could of course be mistaken, would not be the first time).

 

[bob x]

So, are we done here? Perhaps we should stick to other topics in the future, since we aren't likely to get anywhere here.

Last Saturday I got a friendly hug from a married woman (with her friendly husband right by) after playing cards all evening, and Sunday I went to a concert with two couples (dating, neither likely to be married anytime; whether either couple has slept together would be none of my freaking business but I would tend to doubt it) and got a hug from one of the girls and one of the guys (if I were tempted to go to bed with either of them, it would be with the guy-- but he is not that way at all). I do not typically get three hugs in one weekend, nor expect that, but I consider that a big part of what God meant when He created the world, and said "It is very good."

You, on the other hand, call yourself a "reformed" hugger, as if you should feel ashamed of ever having found joy in human warmth, and while I can certainly understand you saying that you cannot hug Wil unless your husband was OK with it, you go on to indicate he would surely hit Wil for even suggesting such a thing. Not that such a quick resort to violence is unique to the Muslim world, but elsewhere it would be considered a negative. How much further apart could the two of us be? What I call God you call the devil, and vice versa.

If you want the last word on this thread, you may take it.

 

[Muslimwoman]

History of Female Circumcision

Re the hugging thing, I do wonder how many affairs have started by those little touches, friendly hugs, innocent flirting? I choose a different life and respect that you choose that one.

 

[wil]

I do not typically get three hugs in one weekend, nor expect that, but I consider that a big part of what God meant when He created the world, and said "It is very good."

Three a day for maintenance seven for growth.

Re the hugging thing, I do wonder how many affairs have started by those little touches, friendly hugs, innocent flirting? I choose a different life and respect that you choose that one.

I'd say many, but an overall insignificant percentage when compared to the hugging and flirting going on.

 

[Muslimwoman]

I'd say many, but an overall insignificant percentage when compared to the hugging and flirting going on.

You are probably right Wil, I just choose to avoid the possibility.

 

[bob x]

Thanks for the link on female "circumcision" (thanks for continuing to converse at all, actually, but especially to actually answer my question).
On the one hand, the data there doesn't actually support the claim that it traces to Pharaonic Egypt: the ancient report is from 3rd century BC (post-Pharaonic) and at that time only in the peripheral tribes on the Red Sea shore, not the Nile Valley where 99% of the population was (my half-remembered info that Ethiopia is where it spread out from would seem to fit with this). I would be interested to know when and how it spread to the heartland of Egypt (your source just abruptly jumps forward 17 centuries!), but:
On the other hand, the map shows the practice as absent in the formerly-very-Romanized stretch of North Africa that I mentioned. I had not known that the practice was absent precisely there, but now that I've been shown that, it makes sense: given this data, since Islam spread to Egypt and to the Maghreb nearly simultaneously (I would have to look it up, but I think the time-lag was at most a couple decades), I must concede to you the central point at issue, that early Islam clearly cannot have been the driving force, rather, pre-existing cultural inclinations must have played a more significant role. (That is, Egypt and the Maghreb are a test case, both receiving early Islam but differing in pre-Islamic cultural heritage-- different outcomes; Egypt and Ethiopia are a test case, one with Islam one without, but sharing a lot of cultural heritage-- same outcomes; conclusion, Islam isn't the factor, culture is.)

On "affairs", those can also start because a wife wants escape from a jealously possessive husband who threatens to beat up any man who tries to be friendly to her: this I have seen. Perhaps, in your culture, where that kind of possessiveness is taken for granted, and more-or-less-cheerfully submitted to, this doesn't happen. Even if it "works" in that sense, I would still say the trade-off is sad, indeed downright unGodly-- but, as you are now doubt thinking right now, who asked my opinion?
You say you "respect" my choice not to live in such a way, and want the same "respect": this is another example of the communications barrier between us. There is little in your manner to me that I would call "respect": when I find you unclear and mistake your meaning, you get snappish and accuse me of intentionally and maliciously misunderstanding; while on the other side, if you mistake me you will then pay no attention to multiply repeated clarifications from me. Your attitude is what I would call "disdain": obviously, since you are perfectly capable of being pleasant to other people, it is a reaction to the disdain I express (and do not pretend not to feel) about your culture. But maybe you are just using the word "respect" in a weaker sense: that you would not *interfere* with my choice to live as I do, regardless of your low opinion of that. If that is all you mean by wanting "respect" in turn, well then, as I say I would oppose laws that would forbid your choice of dress (with some exceptions where facial visibility is crucial, as in driver's license and other ID photos, and on the witness stand, to cite two recent controversial cases). What perturbed me to begin with about the choice of the "veil" as symbol is that you are not just one individual woman making an idiosyncratic choice of costume; rather the veil stands for a cultural system which is aggressively trying to spread itself (I would not react the same way to a woman, or man, in Amish "Plain" dress, and would never think to be so rude tell one of them I found it ugly even if it struck me as really awful-- because the Amish do not proselytize, and go to great lengths to be non-threatening to their neighbors, even avoiding self-defense). The flip side, of course, is that Muslims would not feel the need to be so hostile to the United States and our ways, if the US were not so pushy, both militarily and culturally, on other peoples.

 

[seattlegal]

I know. I'm still waited to be offered some Turkish Delight.

s.

Turkish Delight, Snoopy?
{We miss you!}