can we agree that tormenting people for all time is wrong no matter what?

Hi Shadowman.
I don't disagree with your opening statement, but just wondering what do you want to get from these discussions.
I haven't followed most of your posts, but what I see is that you reject these ideas of eternal condemnation but you can't let them in peace.
Are you trying to make people to accept your point, or do you want them to help you understand, or are you looking for group support to validate your ideas?

Not sure if you would like to knock on god's door but are put off by the conditions, or if you want to bring the whole place down. Or is it something else?
 
dont really know. Im here trying to get a better understanding of christianity mostly. I was raised praying to jesus but I never got the whole story until recently....
 
yes it is wrong and the God of the bible does not teach that . but man makes up many things . no man could do enough wrong in his short lifetime to be sent to hellfire forever , because it would be unjust and the God of the bible is a God of justice .
 
I guess we're going to have to find out in the sequel to Before The End of the World As We Know It.:D
 
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]No. Direct words from Jesus himself speak of hell often, and in the following verses he speaks of it three times in a row for emphasis, and how you dont want to go there, and also is the reason He came into the world--to save us from it.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][/FONT][/FONT]
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
 
Not sure if you would like to knock on god's door...
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stop, stop knocking on heaven's doo-o-r! yeah! yeah! yeah, yeah, yeah!:D forget it guys, he just won't listen.
 
Let no one persuade you that there is in Him a little darkness, because of something He has said which His creatures interprets into darkness......Neither let your cowardly conscience receive any word as light because another calls it light, while it looks to you dark. Say either the thing is not what it seems, or God never said or did it. But, of all evils, to misinterpret what God does, and then say the thing as interpreted must be right because God does it, is of the devil.

(From the sermon "Light", by Geroge MacDonald, 1824-1905)

In the end we must live by our own conscience and understanding. And seek the strength to do so.

And as the "Good Book" says..............."after death, the Judgement"! :eek:

But there are not a few who would be indignant at having their belief in God questioned, who yet seem greatly to fear imagining Him better than he is.

(George MacDonald, again)
 
BlaznFattyz said:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]No. Direct words from Jesus himself speak of hell often, and in the following verses he speaks of it three times in a row for emphasis, and how you dont want to go there, and also is the reason He came into the world--to save us from it.[/FONT][/FONT]

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Click to expand...


so you think its ok?

who put it there. why is it there. why do we need saving from it?
 
shadowman said:
so you think its ok?

who put it there. why is it there. why do we need saving from it?
Click to expand...
what i think or what you think doesn't matter in regards to it existing, if god says it is there; it is there. and if you know the way to be saved from it because god put it there for us which requires a step of faith and love to accept him, then it would be wise to accept him rather than reject him.
 
Drawing upon the invisible forces of love we can feel the oneness and see that responsibility, decision-making and optimism all flow together in one universal consciousness, where God is an obvious reality. When a deep awareness of love is established, one benefits tremendously physically, mentally and spiritually because the habit of being positive is acquired, and God is no longer a closed concept, but an infinite vast always present consciousness of love.

God impels seeking through love, not fear and when one sees everything as God, one falls in love with everything, everyone and God Himself. God is not separate from anything; He is the Life of our life, the Reality within our own reality and the Soul within our being.

"Love your neighbor as yourself."
 
BlaznFattyz said:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][FONT=Arial,Helvetica]No. Direct words from Jesus himself speak of hell often, and in the following verses he speaks of it three times in a row for emphasis, and how you dont want to go there, and also is the reason He came into the world--to save us from it.[/FONT][/FONT]

And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Click to expand...
having an understanding about just what this word hell means , works wonders to our understanding about Jesus illustrations . and having an understanding about what Jesus meant by the word GEHENNA works wonders also . its good to know that Jesus never taught that people would be in a litral hellfire , but man makes up alsorts of evil teachings . and people even get to believe these blasphemas lies about God Yes the great apostacy influenced the early congregations in many ways . and many have been misled by it . but no worries the True God would never ever put people in HELLFIRE.
how blasphemas to even hint at such a thing , i am glad that there are a great crowd from all nations who have been freed from all this blasphemas teachings .REVELATION 7;9-10 they are out of the (worldwide empire of false religion) and they have been set free REVELATION 18;4:)... NICE and they are learning what the bible .....REALLY....teaches
 
doesnt anyone see the utter sickness of people being tormented for all time?

there is NO point.

its usefulness is only as a warning.

after the fact, holding people in a state of torment is so so so so so so so so very wrong.

seriously, I cant emphasize the extremeness of the situation enough.
 
Our original consciousness is pure consciousness, but it is covered with so much waste we can’t see it. Christ with the not easy to find love for everything reopens the gate that was closed, when Adam left the Garden of Eden with the experimental knowledge of good and evil. Adam ate from a tree that divided the mind with moral evil and, which God said not to eat. Jesus tells us in simple language, “He who loves me will be loved by my Father,” which can be summed up in the commandment, “Love your brother as yourself.” Our knowledge and perception are both limited, so how can we understand a pure consciousness that is unlimited? We have to purify our minds so we can become aware of Christ consciousness and to do this, we must love God and one another. Love and unity will set us free and show us the way, not moral condemnation.
 
shadowman said:
doesnt anyone see the utter sickness of people being tormented for all time?

quote] its amazing just what an influence false religious teaching can do . and the amount of people who get to believe the lies that the false teachers spread . false relgion has a lot to answer to God for that .
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mee, I agree scriputure can't make us understand or set us free. When people use scripture to torment and put down religious competition, we can plainly see that they don't understand, they don't love, and they are not free. They are not even that close to Christ. When we come closer to our spiritual role models, we come closer to all, and vice a versa; when we come closer to all, we come closer to our role models. Thus, we should work on expanding our minds and seeing the all-pervading consciousness working in life. The incomplete love that we have for Christ means we lack understanding because when we understand something we love it completely. In complete love there is an element of our consciousness that unites us with the love object in deep understanding. This love attraction needs to be refined and purified through constant contemplation. In a meditation to know and identify with the same source of existence as Christ, one becomes aware of the principle of pure consciousness dwelling in all things. One doesn't just unite with gross matter as if eating the food we love but one's every potential becomes activated in Christ consciousness, and the whole man or woman is born again in the consciousness united with everything. This is how God enters our human reality, and we become whole or holy.
 
soma said:
Thus, we should work on expanding our minds .
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yes, and this would be a good place to start , John 17;3 Says it all really , taking in knowledge about the true God and taking in knowledge about Jesuschrist leads to everlasting life , the true God as the bible informs us is JEHOVAH psalm 83;18 (kjv) and as john3;16 says ,Jesus is Gods son .But many have been misled by religious teachers who teach manmade docrines about the true God , such as the TRINITY, the trinity is not a bible teaching and many have been led astray from pure bible teachings . yes freeing our minds from clutter works wonders .
 
mee said:
yes, and this would be a good place to start , John 17;3...
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"First of all, it is not proper to make a theological doctrine out of one verse. Some try to take one or two verses on a subject and use them to interpret all the others. Instead of getting a balanced position, they arrive at an interpretation that is in agreement with their theological position. This is called "proof-texting" which some are guilty of doing frequently.
Second, the context of Jesus' comment was that He was speaking as a man to His God. Remember, Jesus is both God and man, second person of the Trinity, the word made flesh (John 1:1,14). Since He was both divine and man, as a man He would naturally, and properly say that His Father was the only True God. He was not denying His own divinity, but affirming the Trueness of God as was done in the OT: “And now, O Lord our God, deliver us from his hand that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that Thou alone, Lord, art God,” (Isaiah 37:20). The truth is that Jesus was a man made under the Law (Gal. 4:4) and as a man He would be subject to God. Only in this case, Jesus was subject to the Father. That is why Jesus called the Father the only true God. But it is not a phrase that excludes Christ for Christ Himself said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58) and did not deny being called God by Thomas in John 20:28.
Third, John 17:3 must be examined in the light of the totality of scripture. We see that Jesus is called God in John 1:1,14; 8:58; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:8. Therefore, John 17:3 cannot be interpreted in a way that disagrees with other scriptures. Of course, some people simply state that John 17:3 cannot allow for Jesus being God. But the simple fact is that Jesus is called God by God and others. Therefore, the whole of scripture must be harmonized.
Fourth, this verse reflects the sonship of Jesus. The Father and the Son have a unique relationship. Jesus is the eternal Son. The terms Father and Son denote a relationship which is why God is called the God of the Son in 2 Cor. 11:31.
Fifth, Jesus identifies Himself with the Father. Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in Jesus (John 10:38). Jesus is one with the Father (John 10:30). They are not divided in essence. So, in one sense Jesus is in the Father and if the Father is the only true God, then Jesus is the True God. Also, in 1 John 5:20, Jesus is called the only true God: "And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding, in order that we might know Him who is true, and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." Jesus is not contradicting the word.
We cannot simply make a doctrine out of one verse. To do so is to invite error and it only serves to use the Bible to validate preconceived ideas about doctrine. " (exerpts from carm)

Anyways, if Jesus warns about hell, and he is the way, the truth, and the life, i wouldnt doubt him. if he offers peace and eternal salvation, i would take it and i wouldnt doubt him. have faith and believe in him who made all things because he loves you and ask him into your heart and ask him to forgive you and you will be saved. he will prepare a place for you in heaven where there will no longer be any tears, pain, or hunger, but everlasting life with god.
 
I did not write this:

It is not clear from the bible that people in hell are "tortured for eternity." I'm not positive, even, what you mean by that. If you mean something like the middle ages imagery of hell, with people being burned in flames and being physically tortured, this isn't in the bible. There are only two places in the bible where hell is described as involving something like fire--one in Luke and one in revelation. In both cases, the context easily allows for this to be a metaphorical description. In other places, hell is described as "outer darkness" and that it will involve a "weeping and a gnashing of teeth." Often it is simply referred to as punishment for sin. Whatever this is, we know that God is just, and thus no one will suffer any punishment that could be considered "unfair." Yes, I realize that this fact is hard to reconcile with the eternal literal flames, tortured physically by demons, model of hell, for a number of reasons. I think the main thing that is awful about this image is that the damned apparently retain so much of their humanity, which invites sympathy for them--I think one of the things that people forsake when they reject God is that very humanity. Of the two ideas, God's goodness and perfectly just punishment for sin, and a literal eternal hell of flames and torture, the bible is much more clear on the first than on the second, so I'm in favor of dropping the second for the sake of the first, if that is necessary. Don't get me wrong--I believe the wages of sin is death, eternal death. But I don't know what this is. I don't want to know what it is. Thats why I trust in God--because I think he's the only one who could deliver me from this.
 
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