Mass in Latin again

[Thomas]

Dear all —

I appear to have made a blunder.

My last post was, I thought, a private communication to Lunamoth to clarify, as I stated, something that I said which might have given her the wrong impression. Now I see I have posted it publicly. That was not my intention.

Lunamoth and I have had a number of offline discussions, and I have always (or or off) found her fair, warm, and generous of heart and spirit. I hope she will accept my unreserved apology for what can only appear to be an offhand and, frankly, a bloody rude response.

She knows me better than anyone here, and I was thus somewhat more outspoken in what I thought to be a private communication than I would be in a public forum. I wanted her to have a sense of 'where I was coming from' ... most of all I wanted a sounding, and I have full faith and trust in her in that regard ...

... Now, it appears I have heaped insult upon error. My fault, nothing I can do to undo it, and mea culpa, Luna, I am really, really sorry.

+++

To everyone else —

I am sorry it has come to this, and I am sorry for the offence I have caused. I really have enjoyed my time here (despite appearances), I have learnt much, both about myself and others, and most of all have witnessed what I fully believe, 'that the spirit bloweth where it listeth, and none can say from whence it cometh, nor whither it goeth ...' perhaps most of all, I have learnt to listen ...

In all I have said and done, I hope I have been honest, and fair. Willing to listen and to dialogue ... when I have been robust in response, I have always hoped to offer sound philosophical reason, I don't think I have ever once said "because it's doctrine" or "because we say so" ... but I have never masked my love of Tradition, the consciousness of a precious and living heritage, a Christian heritage to which every Christian can lay claim, and one which the world would rather just quietly went away ... it really is worth standing up for, you know ... it's we who bring the crap of the world to it, not the other way round.

But I have been made painfully aware of the anger, and perhaps not too strongly, the casual venom, the word Catholic invokes ... I knew it was there, just didn't realise it would come from every direction ... OK, part of the job is to roll with it, take the hit, draw the sting, and pray that something better might take its place ... but I never realised how much ...

Anyway, I hope this goes some little way in support of my apologia.

Bye bye and God bless,

Thomas

 

[Tao_Equus]

Thomas,

I, believe it or not, try to stay off the Christianity boards. But i do read them. From this i see how valued and respected your wisdom is by the many who contribute to this little community. I hope you have the good sense to see that your role here transcends faith or denomination and is held in high esteem by the many. I do not see that anyone has engaged you personally recently with the aim of calling into question the principles that make you the good man you undoubtedly are. As an almost lone defender you have had your back against the wall, but I feel confidant that no-one was having a go at you. I think you to good and big a man for this bye bye to mean farewell, and look forward to many more of your enlightening posts.

kindest regards

tao

 

[juantoo3]

Good heavens, if we can't tolerate each other on an interfaith forum, what hope is there for the outside world??????

Many is the time I have asked myself the same question.

 

[Muslimwoman]

as salaam aleykum

Ahem, Ladies and Gentlemen, please can we stop bickering now. I began this thread in an earnest attempt to begin dialogue on the subject of Mass in Latin, not as a means for people to start a verbal fight. What on earth did I say wrong?

CR is my sanctuary, my new global family and as with any family I care about the people here, so if I said something rude please tell me what it was because I never intended any insult to anyone.

The topic was in fact dear to my heart, as a Muslim I pray 5 times a day in Arabic and every time I pray I know there are 1.4 billion people in the world sharing that same prayer (different time zones accepted but you get the idea). I feel sure you have all worked out by now that I travel rather a lot and no matter where I go in the world I can now stand side by side with sisters and pray in a common language, even when we do not share a common tongue. Muslims are taught that we are tied together by a common rope and we must hold fast to that rope, we do this through common prayer. So I understand perfectly the importance of prayer in a common language and an old language at that. I was simply curious as to whether Catholics felt this same connection when Mass is said in Latin.


Thomas I truly hope I did not add to the feelings you are currently experiencing. You have been patient and kind in explaining your views to me. Through our discussion I can see how important this issue is to you and why. Perhaps explaining your views to a Muslim is the least important thing on your mind but it was very important to me, it took one small step closer to interfaith understanding and tolerance, so thank you for that. I sincerely hope you will cool off and reconsider leaving us, so many people here respect you and enjoy discussing issues with you, myself included of course.

I admire your conviction to defend your faith and believe me I know it is not easy at times. I have been told I "grovel like a pig in dirt when I pray", "am oppressed" and "only became a Muslim so I could marry my husband" (suggesting I converted for lust, not for love of G-d - how horribly insulting). This is without the conversations about terrorism, polygamy, child abuse, etc. They are issues I must deal with every day, be honest and not hide from, I must confront them and where possible explain the misconceptions people hold. We all have mountains to climb Thomas and yes sometimes we need to sit and rest. However, I pray you will return to us after your rest, we would miss your intelligent discussion and your conviction to your faith.

salaam
Sally

 

[Dondi]

By the way Thomas, I realize that it is probably unfair of me to finally lose it and vent my spleen over something you have written after all the bull that's been spread by the evangelical Prostestant Christians on this forum. As I said above, though, I thought that at least in you there was some understanding of my faith, some generosity and spirit of fellowship. It cuts deepest when we are rejected by those we feel closest to.

I hope you realize the error of that statement, luna. I went back over this thread (and other related threads) and most of the venomous statements hasn't come from evangelical Prostestant Christians, but been coming from a few individuals from different faiths altogether. I may have had some fault, and for that I apologize, but most of my comments were not belittling.

 

[Faithfulservant]

wow...

 

[lunamoth]

I have a few apologies to make, the most important one being to Thomas, which I shall save for last.

Dondi, yes. You are correct. That's what I get for dancing around what I most wanted to say. Not evangelical Christians such as yourself, whom I've always found to be one of the gentlest and most insightful posters here, and not these latest threads. I was referring to the fundamentalist fire and brimstone preachers we've had here in the past condemning everyone outside their narrow brand of belief to hell.

Second, apologies to Muslimwoman for derailing her thread. All of the posts I've made have been off-topic and are not meant to reflect on her or her intentions in starting this thread in any way.


+++

Thomas,

As I said in my PM, I accept your apology on the condition that you accept mine as well. Actually, you have no need to apologize, not even for the mistake of posting your PM to me publically by accident. You are right that reading it as a public post it came across to me much differently than if I were reading it as a private message, and my short-tempered response was largely due to this effect. However, reading back over my posts I realize that I have been rather thin-skinned over this whole issue and you are no where near deserving of the wrath I have been pouring out on you.

You and I have had a wonderful online friendship over these years, and I am sorry if I have neglected it as of late. I also apologize that I have not been more vocal in calling out for what it is the rampant Catholic-bashing that has gone on here lately and in the past. Perhaps as a mod, or just by my nature, I've been too circumspect and reticent about not seeming to 'take sides.' But, I am truely sorry about the things I've been reading in these threads lately re the Catholic Church. I don't agree with the Pope's style, but the comments you refer to in which people wish him dead are really beyond the pale. Likewise the plethora of posts and threads we've had in the past that call the RCC the beast etc. etc.. Obviously you've developed (out of necessity) a much tougher skin than I.

The comments I've made in my posts above are blunt, but they have been brought on by my honest reaction to these latest statements coming out of the Vatican. On top of that, elsewhere I've been recently told by Catholics (not you!) that the Anglican Church is founded on lies, murder, and greed, that it is just a weird social club, and that I am not part of the Body of Christ. Nothing new if it were coming from what's 'is name who was recently banned. Off-putting, to say the least, coming from folks whom I've previously felt kin to. But I should not have let that color my response to you, public or private. Anyway, all that is part of my own mea culpa in this apology.

Thomas, you are one of the gems of this forum and one of the main reasons I've stuck around this long. I've learned a lot about Christian theology and the Catholic faith from you, but more importantly you have simply been a beacon of light for me as a Christian friend. You are unwarvering in your message of the love of Christ, the love of God for us all, and an inspiration to me. You have lifted me when I was down, and laughed with me when I was up. I humbly apologize for treating you as anything other than the kind and generous person you have always been to me. I hope you will forgive me.

Yours,
Laurie

 

[Thomas]

Responses on 'A rhetorical question ...' lets draw the line here.

 

[Thomas]

On top of that, elsewhere I've been recently told by Catholics (not you!) that the Anglican Church is founded on lies, murder, and greed, that it is just a weird social club, and that I am not part of the Body of Christ.

OK lady, here's the deal.

You call me with names.

Later I call you with a date and time. All you gotta do is make sure, on that day, at that time, you got witnesses who will testify where you was.

Mr T.

 

[Muslimwoman]

{Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}

 

[Dondi]

{Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}

Knit one, pearl two.

That's all you need to know.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Knit one, pearl two.

That's all you need to know.

But do I go for the round neck or v neck? Oh life is just too confusing. Maybe I shall just talk about the mental musings of an orange peel.

Now, what would an orange peel think about..............?

 

[wil]

EGO eram trying efficio curriculum vieo per yarn in tergus quod lubricus off meus postulo can quisquam succurro mihi knit is sock?

 

[Thomas]

Actually Sally (if I may), I thought our bit of the discussion was going rather well, or at least, it's the kind of stuff I most enjoy talking about ... knitting? That's a bit too esoteric for me ...

Thomas

 

[Muslimwoman]

Actually Sally (if I may), I thought our bit of the discussion was going rather well, or at least, it's the kind of stuff I most enjoy talking about ... knitting? That's a bit too esoteric for me ...

Thomas

Hi Thomas

I was thoroughly enjoying our discussion and was honestly begining to get to grips with a new concept. I have found since joining CR that the more I discuss these issues, with people of other faiths, the more I realise our beliefs are not so different and our love of G-d is paramount to us all.

I can't knit so I gave up on that topic, no idea what a knitting pearl is. I was going to discuss the mental musings of an orange peel but after some research I have found their views to be too acidic for my taste. So no idea what I can discuss now.

Salaam
Sally

 

[Muslimwoman]

Thomas

may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended. It is just something I have been curious about for a long time and have never dared ask anyone for fear of offending them but I hope you now realise that I am not that way inclined. Feel free to just ignore me if it is a rude question.

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus". Now, we all accept that Jesus (pbuh) did exist and he was not simply a myth. So what, in your view, was the myth the Pope was refering to?

Personally, I have always taken it to mean the issue of Jesus (pbuh) being the actual son of G-d but of course you could not agree with this. So have you heard of this and if so, what is said about it in the Catholic faith?

Salaam
Sally

 

[Angus McLurk]

5.57pm {Sally tiptoes away from the thread and vows never to ask questions about the Catholic faith again, or Christianity, or Judaism or indeed Islam. Sally decides to discuss only knitting patterns from now on, even though she cannot knit}

7.50pm

Thomas

may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended. It is just something I have been curious about for a long time and have never dared ask anyone for fear of offending them but I hope you now realise that I am not that way inclined. Feel free to just ignore me if it is a rude question.

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus". Now, we all accept that Jesus (pbuh) did exist and he was not simply a myth. So what, in your view, was the myth the Pope was refering to?

Personally, I have always taken it to mean the issue of Jesus (pbuh) being the actual son of G-d but of course you could not agree with this. So have you heard of this and if so, what is said about it in the Catholic faith?

Salaam
Sally

You lasted 1hr 53mins, I love insatiable curiosity!! )

Edit note: This is Tao.. got stuck on this joke name...

 

[Muslimwoman]

You lasted 1hr 53mins, I love insatiable curiosity!! )

LMAO.............Hi Tao, I just can't help myself, if I hadn't have had to go out for cigarettes I wouldn't have lasted that long.

Love the new name - suits you

 

[lunamoth]

OK lady, here's the deal.

You call me with names.

Later I call you with a date and time. All you gotta do is make sure, on that day, at that time, you got witnesses who will testify where you was.

Mr T.

Lol Mr. T. The scariest thing is that worst offender is in seminary studying to be a priest!

 

[Thomas]

Thomas
may I ask you a question about Pope's and please, please, please do not be offended.

OK, despite recent appearances, I am usually quite even tempered (three daughters, need to be), robust (three black belts in classical Japanese swordsmanship) and good-humoured (despite a secret wish to turn into a curmudgeon in my autumn years).

Actually, even if I say so myself, I think our discussion has been exemplary in its conduct. The only shortcoming is my failure to ask questions in return. My knowledge of Islam is from the writings of the Perennial Philosophy movement — Sufi-focussed and deeply metaphysical — but my working of it is rusty, so please do not take my lack of query as a lack of interest.

Pope Leo X, in the 16th century, was allegedly recorded as saying "it has served us well, this myth of Jesus"...

Ahh, 'allegedly' ... to be honest, I had never heard that quote. I've had a look round, and can offer the following:

'The remark "It has served us well, this myth of Christ" is often attributed to him (Pope Leo X), despite the fact that it first appears in John Bale's fiercely antipapal treatise "The Pageant of the Popes" '
Pope Leo X - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'His piety cannot truly be described as deep or spiritual, but that does not justify the continued repetition of his alleged remark: "How much we and our family have profited by the legend of Christ, is sufficiently evident to all ages." John Bale, the apostate English Carmelite, the first to give currency to these words in the time of Queen Elizabeth, was not even a contemporary of Leo. Among the many sayings of Leo X that have come down to us, there is not one of a sceptical nature. In his private life he preserved as pope the irreproachable reputation that he had borne when a cardinal. His character shows a remarkable mingling of good and bad traits.'
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Pope Leo X

But the best investigation seems to be here: Pope Leo X: Evaluation of His "Fable of Christ" Statement

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives quite a fair assessment of this pope, who managed to bankrupt the Church, although I find the term 'irreproachable reputation' a bit of a stretch. Like many of us, not a bad man, but not a good man, either. He enjoyed the high life — he was a Medici, after all — and was lavish towards rich and poor alike, and attracted the best (and no doubt worst) to Rome — artists, musicians, etc ... but if anything, it would appear he was one of those bankers who assumes that all the money in the bank is his.

+++

On the Perennialists, might I mention Martin Lings? (well there, I just have):
'A writer throughout this period, Lings output increased in the last quarter of his life. While his thesis work on Ahmad al-Alawi had been well-regarded, his most famous work was a biography about Muhammad, written in 1983, that earned him acclaim in the Muslim world, and prizes from the governments of Pakistan and Egypt. His work was hailed as the "best biography of the Prophet in English" at the National Seerat Conference in Islamabad. He also continued travelling extensively, although he made his home in Kent. He died in 2005.'
Martin Lings - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

... I was lucky enough to catch his last two public lectures. Dr Lings was a close friend of René Guénon, a towering figure of the PP movement, a Sanskrit scholar, a professed expositor of Brahminic metaphysics, a central figure in the European esoteric movements of the last century, and a convert from Catholicism to Sufism. He moved to Cairo, where he lived quietly in a backstreet, his neighbours unaware that he was a Sufi Sheik and considered a world authority on traditional metaphysics.

Another profound influence upon me was Frithjof Schuon, a contemporary of Guénon's, and second only to him. Schuon was a Protestant who also became a Sufi. He moved to America, where he became mired in scandal. I am in touch with his publisher, who knew him and his wife (still living), and has done much to put the record straight. If you have heard of the English composer Sir John Taverner, I can tell you that he, a convert from Anglican to Greek Orthodoxy, and thence to Sufism, believes himself to be channeling Schuon in his later compositions.

I must also mention another Perennialist, Marco Pallis, a Greek convert to Tibetan Buddhism, who was instrumental in my recovery of faith in Catholicism.

Perhaps it is timely to inform you that I can go on a bit ...

Also that my towering intellect is only surpassed by my rugged good looks, etc., etc. and am obliged to live in a sealed box in a hole in the ground, because my presence might otherwise alter the destiny of the world ...

oh, and I tell lies.

Anyway, check out the Lings book, it might be useful?

Pax tecum,

Thomas