Matthew 26: 28

Salaam,

Like I mentioned earlier: the Christian sources, including the Roman Catholic Church resources, ACCEPT that the Holy Bible have suffered changes: revisions, additions and deletions. This itself is enough to say that the Bible had been corrupted.
 
Salaam,

Like I mentioned earlier: the Christian sources, including the Roman Catholic Church resources, ACCEPT that the Holy Bible have suffered changes: revisions, additions and deletions. This itself is enough to say that the Bible had been corrupted.

Salaam

Do you have a link to a Christian source that says what was revised, added or deleted? I would be very interested to read it.
 
Salaam,

Like I mentioned earlier: the Christian sources, including the Roman Catholic Church resources, ACCEPT that the Holy Bible have suffered changes: revisions, additions and deletions. This itself is enough to say that the Bible had been corrupted.

Whether people accept that the Bible has suffered changes and whether it actually has are different. Just as some people accept that there is no God, while others say there is.

But in away, yes. According to historical scholarship the manuscripts have gone some changes over the years they were copied. But these changes have been minor: misspellings, interchanging "Lord" with "Jesus" etc. But these changes have not altered anything significant about the Bible.

Historians have a method for tracking these changes, the look at the manuscripts we have (thousands of them), and look at how and what has been changed through the generations. By doing so, they are able to get very close to what the original said.

It turns out that the Bibles we have today are very true to what was originally written.
 
Matthew 26:28 English Standard Version (ESV)

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Christ never uses the words, "I died for your sins." He lived for the salvation and betterment of mankind. If Christ died for people's sins, then Moses and Muhammed died for people's sins.

But, I think the important aspect is the persecution that each of them faced, but that they all persevered for the betterment of mankind.

I think "dying for your sins" or even "dying for the forgiveness your sins" is open to interpretation. A lot of people take this to mean that it meant it was absolutely necessary and essential for Jesus to die in order for God to forgive people, that if he didn't, God couldn't accept them. They assume it doesn't require further explanation.

In the context of that passage, nowhere is it said that Jesus' death alone, and only his death, could allow God to forgive people. It simply says that he would simply die for (in pouring out his blood) their sins.

The first-century Christians didn't necessarily believe that one person exclusively had to die for them, or that this act exclusively was necessary for God to accept them. The important thing was that someone had died for them, and that it had something to do with their sins.

It is important, therefore to see the event in context. Why was the crucifixion important to these people, and what relevance does it have for us today? Why did they want to remember it?

If Christianity has so much influence today, and if someone chose to preserve the memory of it, it's not necessarily because "Jesus died for your sins." Jesus died for someone else's sins. People wanted to remember that.

But again, it's not even a matter of whether it's necessary for someone to die for a person to be forgiven. One would be overlooking the possibility that Jesus' death served a political purpose. It may be true that it is sufficient to believe you're forgiven to acquire forgiveness from God, but even then the crucifixion doesn't lose its significance. Could the crucifixion not have been God's declaration of support for those who believed they were forgiven, but were told by their religious leaders that they were not?

I would say that it's unreasonable, after having been slaves of Israel's religious leaders, that a person would then give his soul away to be enslaved again by the idea that he had to believe Jesus' death was necessary for his being accepted by God. I think it's more reasonable to think that Jesus died so that that person could be confident that God had already accepted him, that he would be justified in thinking that God accepted him no matter what people told him. It was between him and God alone. In that sense Jesus died as a martyr defending people's individuality and individual identity.

Like I mentioned earlier: the Christian sources, including the Roman Catholic Church resources, ACCEPT that the Holy Bible have suffered changes: revisions, additions and deletions. This itself is enough to say that the Bible had been corrupted.

By "corrupted", you make it sound like something has been desecrated, or that the Christian Texts are like a structure or building that collapses because a pillar has been pulled, cut down or removed. That, I believe, is to misunderstand the function and purpose of the Christians Texts, which is to record and preserve the memory of an experience that existed in the first century. As long as the experience is correctly and accurately conveyed, the Texts serve their purpose and function.

The question to ask is whether the essential meaning is still there, and that's debatable. It depends a lot on whether Christians interpret their own Texts correctly. That's because Islam's view on Christianity depends on how Christians see Christianity, just as we depend on the views of Jews to interpret Judaism and likewise Muslims for Islam. The first-century Christians did not anticipate the many ways their Texts would be interpreted and used, and they therefore didn't cover all loopholes. We have to go the distance, climb the mountain and slay the dragon in rediscovering first-century Christianity, and thereby rediscover what it all meant . . . if we see that as our purpose in life.

Islam's view of Christianity will be wrong if Christians have misunderstood Christianity, and this will undermine any argument against Christianity, and likewise Judaism. It's the same for Christians looking into Islam. If Muslims have misunderstood Islam, anything said by Christians against Islam loses its authority. It's only until you, as an adherent of one faith, have full appreciation of the meaning of another, that you can speak with authority on the other. I have to say, I have never met anyone who knows and understands both Islam and Christianity well enough to comment on the legitimacy or validity of either and convince me that that theory he has (whatever it will be) is correct. In most cases, I found that knowledge and experience in one or the other was rather limited.

Most people don't even get around to fully appreciating their own faith. I wonder whether there is any point. There is the argument that it is wrong to believe we cannot figure out which one has more validity, that it nullifies the validity of one's faith to think that way. I disagree. If nobody can figure it out, I think it's reasonable to assume and that nobody will ever solve the problem. God wouldn't make unreasonable demands on us feeble humans.

This idea that the Christian Texts have been corrupted is fueled by the idea that one must invalidate one faith to validate another. Who said so? Why not just let Jews be Jews, Christians be Christians and Muslims be Muslims?:) Won't God look after us all in the end?

It's probably more correct to say we've misinterpreted our own Texts than to say we've actually "corrupted" them. If the Texts convey the same essential meaning, then the "corruption theory" goes out the window. Islam should not rely on this theory to affirm and assert its own legitimacy. I don't think it helps anyone to say a text is corrupted because you may be overlooking the possibility that it's been misinterpreted. If a text is misinterpreted and you base a corruption theory on a misinterpretation of a text then your theory is baseless. Why not just let Christians quietly figure out what their faith means?:)

That is not to say . . . we shouldn't listen to what Jews and Muslims have to say . . . but in the end . . . we decide.;)
 
"According to historical scholarship the manuscripts have gone some changes over the years they were copied. But these changes have been minor: misspellings, interchanging "Lord" with "Jesus" etc. "
You are quite mistaken if you think all the changes were minor. For example, the resurrection account in Mark was deleted, and new versions written: we do not have the original; we only know that all the different endings that have been preserved are of late origin.
 
"According to historical scholarship the manuscripts have gone some changes over the years they were copied. But these changes have been minor: misspellings, interchanging "Lord" with "Jesus" etc. "
You are quite mistaken if you think all the changes were minor. For example, the resurrection account in Mark was deleted, and new versions written: we do not have the original; we only know that all the different endings that have been preserved are of late origin.

So does that discredit the Bible? All Bibles I've read say that the extra ending isn't in the oldest manuscripts. Doesn't sound like they're trying to deceive anyone, just being honest. Plus there are 3 other resurrection accounts. Is there any major change in doctrine because part of Mark may have been tacked on later?
 
You are quite mistaken if you think all the changes were minor. For example, the resurrection account in Mark was deleted, and new versions written: we do not have the original; we only know that all the different endings that have been preserved are of late origin.

Hi Bob

Do you have any authoritative sources I could read? Perhaps you could just suggest an historian or religious scholar.

So does that discredit the Bible? All Bibles I've read say that the extra ending isn't in the oldest manuscripts. Doesn't sound like they're trying to deceive anyone, just being honest. Plus there are 3 other resurrection accounts. Is there any major change in doctrine because part of Mark may have been tacked on later?

Hi Pico

I understand you defending the Bible, I would do the same with the Quran. I am asking for sources so that I can see what is believed to have been changed. As a Muslim I believe in Jesus (pbuh) and his teachings but in order to know what his teachings really were I need to know what has been changed.

One problem for non Christians with people stating 'yes the Bible has been changed' is it naturally leads one to wonder what else has been changed. I would like to learn more.
 
Hi Sally.

Early manuscripts of Mark's Gospel end with an empty tomb, the message that Jesus has risen and he will meet all of you in Galilee as he promised, and trembling and afraid women. Jesus has already risen and left, apparently. The part that was tacked on later has the recently risen Jesus first appearing to Mary M., then making several other appearances in various locations.

Chris
 
Hi Pico

I understand you defending the Bible, I would do the same with the Quran. I am asking for sources so that I can see what is believed to have been changed. As a Muslim I believe in Jesus (pbuh) and his teachings but in order to know what his teachings really were I need to know what has been changed.

Shoot, this book I lent to my friend "The Case for the Real Jesus" by Lee Strobel tackles this issue, but I can't quote from it right now.

But from manuscript evidence the Bible itself is virtually unchanged. The 2 exceptions are resurrection in Mark and the story of the Adulteress in John 8. If you read these in a Bible there will be a note: "Not in the earliest manuscripts." These are just two stories that are not found in the earliest manuscripts. It doesn't change anything about the gospel.
 
Hi Sally.

Early manuscripts of Mark's Gospel end with an empty tomb, the message that Jesus has risen and he will meet all of you in Galilee as he promised, and trembling and afraid women. Jesus has already risen and left, apparently. The part that was tacked on later has the recently risen Jesus first appearing to Mary M., then making several other appearances in various locations.

Chris

Hi Chris

Good to 'see' you. So where did Mark come in history, would he have known Jesus (pbuh)?

Salaam
Sally

"Not in the earliest manuscripts." These are just two stories that are not found in the earliest manuscripts. It doesn't change anything about the gospel.

So these were added later but by whom and why? I am afraid I find that rather significant.
 
Mark is most generally thought to have been written sometime in the 70's CE. It wasn't until around 130 CE that Papius, Bishop of Hieropolis, named Mark the author of the Gospel.

Chris
 
So he was unlikely to be an eyewitness and if he was 'named' then we don't even know he was the author?

So when were the other gospels written?
 
Matthew was probably written in the late 80's CE, Luke and Acts of the Apostles around 120, and John somewhere in the 90's. Nobody knows who actually initiated the writing of these Gospels. I say "initiated" because even the oldest manuscripts we have are not original drafts so it isn't even accurate to speak of the "author" of this or that Gospel. What we have are composite works of unknown authorship which have been ascribed to characters from the narrative.

Chris

Oh, I should say that all of that is arguable.
 
Well I don't want to start a fight so I shall go off and do some studying but thanks for the dates Chris, it gives me something to check against.

Sally
 
I'm a lover, not a fighter! Besides, there are many theories and points of view concerning the who, what, where, when and how come of it all. I'm just giving you the consensus of a swath of biblical scholars that I consider pretty much unbiased and mainstream. Of course every scholar has at least the axe of his ego to grind. I suppose exegetes are the same but for different reasons.

It would be nice from a more literalist perspective if the Gospels were written earlier, but I think it unlikely. Then again, I'm not approaching it from a position of faith, but rather looking at it like any other ancient object of interest. There is such an incredible amount of information available about the Bible and Christianity. Check out your local bookstore. My Barnes and Noble has a large U shaped section of nothing but Christian oriented books big enough to put three really comfortable reading chairs and a small table in. There are as many books about Christianity as the whole history section and then some. There's every kind of Bible available. There are exhaustive concordances, racks of weighty tomes of commentary, and Bible atlases of the ancient world. There's Christian fiction like the Left Behind series and young adult novels. There's a huge Christian inspiration genre of books of prayers, poems, and nice thoughts on how to live a fulfilling Christian life.

And there's criticism. There's atheist criticism. There are guys like Bishop Spong who are uber-liberal Christian scholars. There are Gnostic scriptures and apocryphal gospels.

Out of all the books available on every conceivable facet of Christianity and the Bible there are a tiny handful which address the essential questions one should ask about the origins of the texts in the Christian Cannon in a faith neutral, scholarly fashion. Then you have to check for chip-on-shoulder atheists and everyone else with a need for a particular kind of pronouncement.

Chris
 
I would argue every bit of it ;)

I don't know where you got that information, but I've read experts on the New Testament giving earlier dates than those.
I would say Chris's info is in the realm of most of the 'experts', yes we have some folks who claim otherwise, swear each name represents the author, denies the existence of Q, and each is an eye witness, those same deny the existence of the early authors of the old testament as well. Pick up any rag from the grocery store line, experts are fairly easy to find!
 
Salaam

Do you have a link to a Christian source that says what was revised, added or deleted? I would be very interested to read it.

Not exactly a link, but try Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus. He is an agonist (now). If I remember correctly, he proves that Everything in mathew after the closure of the tomb is a later interpolation, so are the first verses of John (Logos/theos) & Jesus & the prostitute incident, that is usually used to to prove that he wanted abrogation of Mosaic law. Also he says many words in very crucial places have been modified , either delibrately, or just because the scribe was getting sleepy.
 
Early manuscripts of Mark's Gospel end with an empty tomb, the message that Jesus has risen and he will meet all of you in Galilee as he promised, and trembling and afraid women.
No, that bit about how Jesus had risen and would go to Galilee is not in the early texts.

It wasn't until around 130 CE that Papius, Bishop of Hieropolis, named Mark the author of the Gospel.
I would date the Papias extract to around 100. At the time when he was writing, no gospel of "John" or "Luke" was yet in circulation, and what he knew as the gospel of "Matthew" was still only a collection of sayings, in "Hebrew" (by which he probably means Aramaic slightly larded with Hebrew words), with some Greek translations available but none yet standardized: that is, what scholars now call the "Q" source, not the assembled "Greek Matthew" found in the canon (for which I would put the probable date in the 110's).
I don't know where you got that information, but I've read experts on the New Testament giving earlier dates than those.
Most experts on the New Testament unfortunately are Christians (since non-Christians just don't have as much interest in the texts) who are often unable to put their religious presuppositions aside, and push the earliest possible dates they can find any excuse for.
 
Hi Sally —

So he was unlikely to be an eyewitness and if he was 'named' then we don't even know he was the author?

The simple fact is that we have no incontrovertible evidence with regard to the authorship of the Gospels — we have the internal evidence of the texts themselves, and we have tradition, but once you assume that neither are necessarily true, then you have nothing else on which to make a claim, other than you're own pet opinion.

So here is the traditional view:
Matthew was a saying document (now lost); a collection of sayings, stories, events, etc., belonging to the Judean Christian community. Its authority as issuing from one of the twelve has never been doubted, but there are clear signs of the document we now possess being structured on a chronology according to Mark, and organised by a highly skilled author in the Hebraic literary and Rabinnic tradition. It follows a precise structure ('ring composition') which places the Parables of the Kingdom as central to the whole work ... I could go on at great length about this ... but we accept that the 'author' or 'redactor' took the Matthean tradition and organised his document accordingly.

Mark's gospel is regarded as the testimony of St Peter. Mark might be the Mark who travelled to Rome with St Paul and remained there, or the author might not have been a Mark at all — the name was added later, but then one could argue that the document was always known as Mark's.

Luke was a disciple of Paul, who collected material from a broad range of sources, including Matthew and Mark, to compose his account.

John is the only gospel that claims to be an eye-witness account. Scholars claim it is not, but have no evidence other than their own opinion that such is the case. Scholars also claimed that John was an Hellenic gospel, and since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, this argument has been shown to be erroneous.

Possible dates for the Gospels:
Mark — 45-60AD
Matthew — 80-90AD
Luke — 80-85AD
John — 90-100AD

The point is the Church is not founded on the Gospels, the Gospels are the product of the Church — they tell what the Early Church was teaching and preaching, in the same way that St Paul in his letters refers to the teachings that both he and his audience are in receipt of ... so although he claims his own authority as an apostle, he does not contradict the Church on any point of doctrine.

If you want to get really confused, look up 'The Synoptic Problem' on wikipedia, but have a pencil and paper ready.

As has noted, it unquestionably suits us to place the gospels as early as possible ... as it suits the critics to place them as late as possible ... but that does not mean we ignore evidence, as has been suggested ... rather I would claim that non-Christian scholars rarely have the depth of knowledge that the Christian (notably Protestant) scholars have.

The 'Q' source, for example, a hypothetical document that no longer exists, and about which we have no evidence whatsoever, exists in the minds of scholars on far less evidence than any of the other four, and yet it has become a given in some circles ... there is an obvious contradiction in a hypothesis that refutes the evidence that exists, and proposes another solution based on no evidence at all.

Thomas
 
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