Matthew 26: 28

[dailogue is the best]

hi Manji2012,
actually, i dont have a deep idea about what u said,but since you asked about the Islamic perspective, i would like to share it with you:
the idea of salvation is rooted, i think,in the idea of the Original Sin.Adam is considered as the father of sin bc of his disobedience of God s order when He asked him and Eve not to eat from the tree. As a punishment to them,we find in the Old Testament the following:{In pain and suffering, you will give birth, you and your daughters till the end of time}...Spinoza, the Jewish philosopher of religion rejected such statements in the Bible which contradicts reason and declares that God doesnt repent.he says:{God forgives the sins of those who repent. No one is free from sin,so without this belief all would despair of salvation, and there would be no reason in believing in the mercy of God}.....
concerning the story of Adam in the Quran ,we find the following:{We said:"O Adam, dwell thou ang thy wife in the Garden, and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will, but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression"36.then did Satan make them slip from (the garden) and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been. We said:"Get ye down, all(ye people), with enmity between yourselves.On the earth will be your dwelling place and your means of livelihood for a time".37then learnt Adam from his Lord Words of inspiration, and his Lord turned towards him, for He is Oft Returning,Most Merciful.38. We said:"Get ye down all from here, and if as is sure, there comes to you guidance from Me, whosoever follows My guidance , on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.(2:35/38).
in Islam,salvation is personal as God says in the Quran:"On no soul doth God place a burden greater than it can bear.It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns{...}(2:286)"
concerning Jesus crucification and the idea of salvation, in the Quran, we find a rejection of the idea of crucication:"..but they killed him not,nor crucified him,but so it was made appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not(4:157)....
(for more knowledge about Islamic point of view about this you can read Ahmed Deedat researches about this subject..)
Ahmed Deedat says:" As against the teaching of the Master(Jesus) that salvation only comes through keeping of the commandments (Matthew 19:16/17), Paul nails the law and the commandments to the cross(Colonsians 2:14), and claims that salvation can only be obtained through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ:" If Christ be not risen from the dead, the our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain"(1 Corinthians 15:14).....
I hope this can help, though i reply late, and normally the first replies take the whole attention and discuss subject elaborately...eventhough,i insisted to participate....
I hope this can make sense to you, Manji2012.

 

[Out There]

There is No Salvation Without Sacrifice
by Ibn Anwar​

Christians declare that there is no forgiveness or salvation except through the shedding of blood i.e. sacrifice. They will go on to say that the Islamic idea of God just forgiving a sinner's sin is unjust and they will then give their rationalisations for saying this. If asked,"Where does it say that God cannot forgive except through some sort of sacrifice?" the Christians will quote,"...Without shedding of blood there is no atonement" (Hebrews 9:22)

Before I continue , I'd like to put forth several questions for you the readers to ponder on.
1. If I can show even one instance where God in the Bible forgave a person's sin without sacrificial rites how will that stand in light of the Christian notion that it is unjust for God to simply forgive?
2. If it is shown that God can forgive sin without blood sacrifice, what then is the significance of any sacrifice?
3. If it is proven that God had no problem at all in forgiving sins without blood sacrifices then why did he have to crucify His only "begotten" son, Jesus and declare to the whole world that from then onwards the only way for forgiveness is through Jesus' death? Why would He radically change His nature when it's stated in Malachi 3:6,"For I am the Lord, I DO NOT CHANGE"?
The book of Jonah, Chapter 3 (In the NKJV, the heading "Nineveh Repents" is given)
NLT
Then the Lord spoke to Jonah a second time: “Get up and go to the great city of Nineveh, and deliver the message I have given you.”
This time Jonah obeyed the Lord’s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all. On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds: “Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!” The people of Nineveh believed God’s message, and from the greatest to the least, they declared a fast and put on burlap to show their sorrow.
When the king of Nineveh heard what Jonah was saying, he stepped down from his throne and took off his royal robes. He dressed himself in burlap and sat on a heap of ashes. Then the king and his nobles sent this decree throughout the city:
“No one, not even the animals from your herds and flocks, may eat or drink anything at all. People and animals alike must wear garments of mourning, and everyone must pray earnestly to God. They must turn from their evil ways and stop all their violence. Who can tell? Perhaps even yet God will change his mind and hold back his fierce anger from destroying us.”
When God saw what they had done and how they had put a stop to their evil ways, he changed his mind and did not carry out the destruction he had threatened."
In short, God forgave the people of Nineveh without a single demand for blood sacrifice.​

Is intercession between us and God for forgiveness required?​

"As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of wicked people. I only want them to turn from their wicked ways so they can live. Turn! Turn from your wickedness, O people of Israel! Why should you die?" (Ezekiel 33:11)
The word "turn" here in Hebrew is shuvu which is similar with the word teshuvah which carries the same meaning as tawbah in Arabic i.e. return/repent.
"And suppose I tell some wicked people that they will surely die, but then they turn from their sins and do what is just and right. For instance, they might give back a debtor’s security, return what they have stolen, and obey my life-giving laws, no longer doing what is evil. If they do this, then they will surely live and not die. None of their past sins will be brought up again, for they have done what is just and right, and they will surely live." (Ezekiel 33:14-16)​

Neither sacrifice nor intercession for forgiveness is demanded​

"The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done." (Ezekiel 18: 20-22)
Firstly, in the verses quoted above one can clearly see that the idea of inherited sin is totally debunked. Secondly, repentance is taught as a means for salvation and that if repentance is sought and one adheres to that which is lawful, ALL one's past sins will be forgotten. This amazing show of mercy from God is again FREE of any blood sacrifice.
The same message is repeated again in the same chapter :
"And if wicked people turn from their wickedness, obey the law, and do what is just and right, they will save their lives. They will live because they thought it over and decided to turn from their sins. Such people will not die." (Ezekiel 18: 27-28)
“Therefore, I will judge each of you, O people of Israel, according to your actions, says the Sovereign Lord. Repent, and turn from your sins. Don’t let them destroy you!"(Ezekiel 18:30)​

God is MERCIFUL and does not require to kill anyone to atone for your sin!
“O my God, lean down and listen to me. Open your eyes and see our despair. See how your city—the city that bears your name—lies in ruins. We make this plea, not because we deserve help, but because of your mercy." (Daniel 9:18)​

What is true sacrifice in God's eyes?
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and contrite heart" (Psalm 51:17)​

"Does the LORD delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in obeying the voice of the LORD? To obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed is better than the fat of rams" (I Samuel 15:22)​

Christians as taught by Paul ALWAYS say that obedience and works are worthless. Accept Jesus' sacrifice and you will be saved! JUST BELIEVE! Faith comes first, then works will ensue. Yet, in 1 Samuel 15:22 we see a different idea. The Christian point of view is apparently in reverse to that of God's as portrayed in 1 Samuel 15:22 ! If God said once that obedience is better than sacrifice, how can He again radically change that and reverse the idea? Hmm..I think something fishy is afoot.​

AGAIN neither sacrifice nor intercession is required!​

"Then if my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. " (2 Chronicles 7:14)
"Finally, I confessed all my sins to you
and stopped trying to hide my guilt.
I said to myself, “I will confess my rebellion to the Lord.”
And you forgave me! All my guilt is gone." (Psalm 32:5)
"Yethe was merciful and forgave their sins
and did not destroy them all.
Many times he held back his anger
and did not unleash his fury!
For he remembered that they were merely mortal,
gone like a breath of wind that never returns." (Psalm 78:38-39)
"Who is a God like you,
who pardons sin and forgives the transgression
of the remnant of his inheritance?
You do not stay angry forever
but delight to show mercy. " (Micah 7:18)
"Perhaps the people of Judah will repent when they hear again all the terrible things I have planned for them. Then I will be able to forgive their sins and wrongdoings.” (Jeremiah 36:3)
"Let the wicked change their ways
and banish the very thought of doing wrong.
Let them turn to the Lord that he may have mercy on them.
Yes, turn to our God, for he will forgive generously." (Isaiah 55:7)​

God forgives not because of lamb, sheep or goat but...
"I—yes, I alone—will blot out your sins for my own sake
and will never think of them again." (Isaiah 43:25)
He forgives not because of all your sheep or goats, but, it is because He is compassionate and merciful!
"Unfailing love and faithfulness make atonement for sin.
By fearing the Lord, people avoid evil." (Proverbs 16:6)
Again, no sheep, goats, elephants, chickens or humans, but, through love of God and faithfulness of men is sin atoned. In addition, the verse informs us that God says that people avoid evil due to their FEAR of God which is contrary to standard Evangelical thought which says evil is avoided simply because of faith in Jesus and the crucifixion.​

The following passage is rather telling ​

“What makes you think I want all your sacrifices?”​

says the Lord.
“I am sick of your burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of fattened cattle.
I get no pleasure from the blood
of bulls and lambs and goats.
When you come to worship me,
who asked you to parade through my courts with all your ceremony?
Stop bringing me your meaningless gifts;
the incense of your offerings disgusts me!
As for your celebrations of the new moon and the Sabbath
and your special days for fasting—
they are all sinful and false.
I want no more of your pious meetings.
I hate your new moon celebrations and your annual festivals.
They are a burden to me. I cannot stand them!
When you lift up your hands in prayer, I will not look.
Though you offer many prayers, I will not listen,
for your hands are covered with the blood of innocent victims.
Wash yourselves and be clean!
Get your sins out of my sight.
Give up your evil ways.
Learn to do good.
Seek justice.
Help the oppressed.
Defend the cause of orphans.
Fight for the rights of widows.

“Come now, let’s settle this,”​

says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet,
I will make them as white as snow.
Though they are red like crimson,
I will make them as white as wool.
If you will only obey me,
you will have plenty to eat.
But if you turn away and refuse to listen,
you will be devoured by the sword of your enemies.
I, the Lord, have spoken!” (Isaiah 1:11-18)

From the verses presented right from the beginning until now we see time and again God saying that the way to forgiveness and remission of sins is NOT just by believing in some sacrifice or do some sacrifice , BUT, OBEY OBEY OBEY and BE FAITHFUL TO HIM! In the above given passage of Isaiah we see that God did not just refuse to accept sacrifice but He even hated it and instead demanded REPENTANCE and OBEDIENCE. Thus after disclaiming and discrediting sacrifices, God gave them the following solutions(with no mention of sacrifice) :
1. Wash yourself and be clean
2. Give up sins
3. Learn to do good
4. Seek justice
5. Help the oppressed
6. Defend the orphans
7. Fight for widows​

To read the complete article proceed to ​

Salvation ONLY comes through sacrifice! « Unveiling Christianity​

 

[Pico]

God dealt with sin by Judging the world's sin on Jesus (God himself). That's the blood sacrifice. There's parts in the OT where God doesn't require sacrifices because their sins are paid by Jesus' sacrifice. The sacrificial system that God set up for the Jews was supposed to point to Jesus' sacrifice. In the case of the book of Jonah, they weren't Jews. The whole sacrificial system was established for the Jews. But because God is merciful he will forgive everyone who repents, for their debt is paid.

 

[Thomas]

Greetings Aidyl Nurhadi,

Christians declare that there is no forgiveness or salvation except through the shedding of blood i.e. sacrifice.

Not quite. Rather, Christians declare that through the sacrifice of the Son, once and for all time, salvation was attained for all, and no further sacrifice is necessary.

They will go on to say that the Islamic idea of God just forgiving a sinner's sin is unjust and they will then give their rationalisations for saying this. If asked,"Where does it say that God cannot forgive except through some sort of sacrifice?" the Christians will quote,"...Without shedding of blood there is no atonement"

(Hebrews 9:22)

Then such Christians (if indeed there are such) would be misinformed. God is free to forgive or condemn whom He wills. It is not for man to say what God can or cannot do.

Hebrews 9:22 refers to the sacrifice offered by Moses — under the Law. Prior to this the author of Hebrews argues:
"And therefore he is the mediator of the new testament: that by means of his death for the redemption of those transgressions which were under the former testament, they that are called may receive the promise of eternal inheritance" (9:15) and then goes on to say "For then he ought to have suffered often from the beginning of the world. But now once, at the end of ages, he hath appeared for the destruction of sin by the sacrifice of himself" (9:26).

1. If I can show even one instance where God in the Bible forgave a person's sin without sacrificial rites how will that stand in light of the Christian notion that it is unjust for God to simply forgive?

Jesus forgave sin often, as did His Father in heaven. The premise of what Christians believe is mistaken. On the cross Jesus assured the robber at His side "Amen I say to thee: This day thou shalt be with me in paradise" (Luke 23:43), simply because the man asked.

2. If it is shown that God can forgive sin without blood sacrifice, what then is the significance of any sacrifice?

Are you saying God is not worth any offering?

3. If it is proven that God had no problem at all in forgiving sins without blood sacrifices then why did he have to crucify His only "begotten" son, Jesus and declare to the whole world that from then onwards the only way for forgiveness is through Jesus' death? Why would He radically change His nature when it's stated in Malachi 3:6,"For I am the Lord, I DO NOT CHANGE"?

God did not change His Divine nature ... Jesus, by His death and resurrection, opened a new possibility for human nature. The act was for our benefit, not God's.

You offer many references ... may I ask, do you assume that what you are saying has not occurred to anyone in the last 2,000 years?

You say:

Salvation ONLY comes through sacrifice!

This is not quite accurate. Rather one should say: Salvation ONLY comes through His sacrifice!,
"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."
John 14:6

As ever in these discussions, it's a matter of context.

Thomas

 

[Bruce Michael]

the idea of salvation is rooted, i think,in the idea of the Original Sin.Adam is considered as the father of sin bc of his disobedience of God s order when He asked him and Eve not to eat from the tree. As a punishment to them,we find in the Old Testament the following:{In pain and suffering, you will give birth, you and your daughters till the end of time}...

Hello 'dailogue is the best',

We must ask the question "To what extent did our Adam possess free will?" Wasn't he always destined to fall? Why didn't God create in him a stronger will that would resist all temptation?

So as compensation for the Fall we have Grace. And that Grace we receive from the "Second Adam".

36.then did Satan make them slip from (the garden) and get them out of the state (of felicity) in which they had been.

Satan obviously was allowed into the Garden and "made them slip".

Lecture: The Concepts of Original Sin and Grace

Cordially,
Br.Bruce

 

[dailogue is the best]

salam brother Bruce Micheal,

in fact, you posed very important questions that i m going to answer according to the Islamic perspective. At the beginning, i would like to tell you that i ve read the wholl article about the Original Sin and the Grace. the article is wonderful, and it is trying to analyse the Original Sin and the Christ Impulse under new lights.I think it belongs to the erea of Reformation where Luther and Calvin started to analyse Christianty under the light of reason and logic.

The wonderful idea the article comes with is that of "Christ in me".In other words, if Christians want to advance spiritually, they have to renew Christ in their souls.To simplify, they have to renew Christ teachings(which are God s teachings) and the same can be applied to Muslims, Jews, they have to renwe Muhamed and Moses teachings(which are God s teachinhgs).

Now, lets examine your important questions:

We must ask the question "To what extent did our Adam possess free will?" Wasn't he always destined to fall? Why didn't God create in him a stronger will that would resist all temptation?

Actually, these are very important questions that they are concerned about self knowledge of one s self and purpose in this world.Of course, one ll feel comfort if he,she gets answers to these questions.

As Muslims, we dont worry about these Questions because the Quran gives us clear answers to these questions. please look deeply at the following Quranic verses:"We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape,27. And the Jinn race, We had created from tha fire of a scorching wind.28.Behold!thy lord said to the angels:" I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape,29."When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him"30.So tha angels prostrated themselves, all of `them together:31.Not so Ibliss:he refused to be among those who prostraed themselves.32.(God)said:"O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?33.(Iblis) said:i am not one to prostrate myself to man whom thou didst create from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape"34. (God)said:"then get thee out from here, for thou art rejected, accursed.35."and the Curse shall be on thee till the Day of judgement."36.(Iblis) said:" O my lord!give me then respite till the Day the (Dead) are raised.37.(God) said:"respite is granted thee-38."till the Day of the Time Appointed."39.(Iblis) said:'O my Lord!because Thou hast put me in the wrong, i will make (wrong) fair-seeming to them on the earth, and i will put them all in wrong,-40,"Except thy among them, sincere and pourified(by Thy grace)."41.(God) said:"This (Way of My sincere servants) is indeed a Way that leads straight to me.42."For over My servants no authority shalt thou have, except such as put themselves in the wrong and follow thee."43.And verily, Hell is the promised abode for them all!(chapter 15)

The main ideas we get from these versus are the following:

1.man is created from sounding clay: he is bound to the earth and its pleasures...he is appealed to the materialistic world, and that has to do with his creation from clay(drinking, eating, sleeping, having sexual intercourse,and the like).Furthermore,sounding clay means dry clay which produces a sound, like pottery. so, here we v the idea of fire.Thus, in man, there is also satanic desires (as Satan is completly made of fire)..the satanic impulses are like arrogance, envy, and the like). Consequently, man witnesses those feeling because of his nature.

2.God breathed into man of His Spirit.that s why, there is goodness in every man without exception.but this spirit isnt activated in every man. to reach connection with God, one has to fight his/her commanding soul, and strenghtens his/her reproaching soul to get to the peaceful soul(3 degrees of souls which are mentioned in the Quran).when you get to the peaceful soul, one can make a good connection with God.

3.Angels prostrated to man.This is a great honour to man.God honoured man and makes him His vicegerant in the earth.

4.Iblis(Satan) refused to prostrate to man out of arrogance and envy. So, he is expelled from heaven, and God let him free till the Day of Judgement as a test to those who surrender to their commanding soul...those who dont strive for God s pleasure..God warned man against Iblis:"O ye Children of Adam!let not Satan seduce you, in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment,to expose their shame:for he and his tribe watch you from a position where ye cannot see them:We made the Evil Ones friends(only) to those without faith.(7:27)

5.we are in this world to worship the only God, and do good.This life is just a test. In the hereafter, we ll get the reward of our doings. God says:"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits(of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,-156.who say, when afflicted with calamity:"To God we belong, and to Him is our return"chapter:2).

6.There is no need to be compensated for the fall, because Islam teaches us that man is born free from any sin. Adam s sin represents him alone.but because of the nature of man(sounding clay), he is very attracted to materialistic things,and immoral feelings,....man in this world is in a test, he has to srive to get to God...this is his main duty in the world.....connection with God is doing well to oneself, people, animals, things....in Islam, man is responsible of his own salvation,no one else:"Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself:no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another.(6:164).Also, He says in other verse:"And if any strive (with might and main), they do so for their own souls: for God is free of all needs from all creation(29:6)

7.the Grace in my opinion is to follow God s teachings which we recieved from His apostles. God says:"Who recieveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: no bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle(to give warning).

I hope this can make things clearer...and answers the questions, Bruce Micheal...

cordially,
dailogue is the best

 

[Bruce Michael]

At the beginning, i would like to tell you that i ve read the wholl article about the Original Sin and the Grace. the article is wonderful, and it is trying to analyse the Original Sin and the Christ Impulse under new lights.I think it belongs to the erea of Reformation where Luther and Calvin started to analyse Christianty under the light of reason and logic.

Shalom 'dailogue is the best',
I'm surprised that you read all of that article!

Yes we need to ask questions and then question more "under the light of reason and logic". Fortunately at the present time in Christendom we can do that. We can research earlier manuscripts, legends etc. We can use textual criticism as well. If our faith is rock solid we have nothing to fear. Science and religion can be in total harmony.

Unfortunately this is not always possible in the Muslim world is it?

Myth #1 - The Qur‘an is Preserved and Unchanged Revelation from Allah

The wonderful idea the article comes with is that of "Christ in me".In other words, if Christians want to advance spiritually, they have to renew Christ in their souls.To simplify, they have to renew Christ teachings(which are God s teachings) and the same can be applied to Muslims, Jews, they have to renwe Muhamed and Moses teachings(which are God s teachinhgs).

Most of the teachings can be sourced to pre-Christian times. Christians can come into contact with an actual Spiritual Being ie Christ. This is part of my understanding of "Christ in me".

Are the "Jinn race" the same as Elemental Beings?

Not so Ibliss:he refused to be among those who prostraed themselves.32.(God)said:"O Iblis! what is your reason for not being among those who prostrated themselves?33.(Iblis) said:i am not one to prostrate myself to man whom thou didst create from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape"

Yes there was an argument in Heaven about the creation of Man. You can find a similar story in the Book of Enoch where the Nephilim make the same argument.

What is the Arabic word for "Hell"?

Thus, in man, there is also satanic desires (as Satan is completly made of fire)..the satanic impulses are like arrogance, envy, and the like).

So Lucifer is a good name- meaning "Light-bearer".

Where does the name "Iblis" come from?
Isn't there a masculine and feminine form of it?

5.we are in this world to worship the only God, and do good.This life is just a test. In the hereafter, we ll get the reward of our doings. God says:"Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits(of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,-156.who say, when afflicted with calamity:"To God we belong, and to Him is our return"chapter:2).

If we return to God shouldn't we return in Perfection. If that is so, how can we attain Perfection in one life?

Thank you for answering my questions. I won't tire you with any more at this time.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salam brother,
hope you are fine..actually, there is no need to thank me for answeing your questions because we are here to interact and gain knowledge from each other....
i dont know why you were surprised of my reading of the whole article...you supllied me with it to learn and i m here to learn...again, i read the whole article you provided me with.
the article totally rejects the fact that the Quran is preserved and unchanged revelation from Allah....Unfortunately, the article gives a lot of wrong information, and his writer Timothy W. Dunkin is baised writer who shows a lack of scientific honesty...Anyway, his book "Ten Myths about Islam" is a complete failure....and there are a lot of Muslims scientists who entered in dialogue with him,and they managed to falsify all his claims about all the ten myths, and not one alone...you can check the following website:

Ten Myths about Islam_TOC

In reality, i like extremely like your saying:"If our faith is a rock stone, we have nothing to fear".....it reminds me of Spinosa... He says something similar....yes, we have nothing to fear since we believe in our faith, and strive to make it stronger and deeper....
Also, you said science and religion can be in total harmony...yes,they are...science makes our faith stronger and firm...the following website is about the scientific miracles in the Quran:

The quran miracles encyclopedia

Concerning your question about the "Jinn race" and if they are the same as Elemental beings, you can find fully answers about this race in the following website:

http://muttaqun.com/jinn.html


"Jahanam" is the Arabic word for "Hell',while the word 'Iblis" comes from the Arabic word "Iblass': in Arabic, we say a man "balassa wa ablassa' means he diminshes his good deeds and he is hopless of God"s mercy. "Iblis" is called so because he "ablasa" from God's mercy...that is to say, he lost confidence in God's mercy....which is not the case with the believer...

my best wishes,
DB

 

[Bruce Michael]

the article totally rejects the fact that the Quran is preserved and unchanged revelation from Allah....
Unfortunately, the article gives a lot of wrong information, and his writer Timothy W. Dunkin is baised writer who shows a lack of scientific honesty...Anyway, his book "Ten Myths about Islam" is a complete failure....

Salaam Brother,
My point is that it should be subject to scholarly inquiry just as the Bible has been since the nineteenth century.

Of course if you believe it is written by God and perfect that is a matter of faith not scholarship.

There are many books that have been claimed to have been written by God over the years- the Urantia Book, the Oasphe, Joseph Smith's Gold Plates, to name some of recent years. There appears to be the enormous anomalies in religious thought and in those proclaiming to hold the truth, in a way that they believe that they can benefit the world's wisdom. Truly in our Father's house there are truly many mansions.

Do you believe that God is Omnipotent and Omniscient? If so He could write a book and put in everyone's letterbox the world over. In reality He has done better than this. He has written in the human soul of everyone. If this was not so how could they recognise spiritual truth in the first place?

I heard a preacher on the radio the other day commenting that someone said "Do you love the Book or do you love God?" It sure sounded to me like he loved the Book.

It is understandable that you might love a book because it is a physical object. But God is a Spirit.

Here we must be careful of falling into idolatry- worshiping a physical object as God.

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce
Truth remains when doctrine has ceased its usefulness. Truth has insight beyond the concepts expounded and ignited in any age.

 

[dailogue is the best]

salam brother BM,
I see your point.....but, let me first explain some ideas:

1. the Quran is not written by God, but it is rather inspired by Him:"...say:" God is between me and you, this Quran hath been revealed to me by inspiration....(6:19)"
2. faith consists of two parts: mind and book. people come to know that there is a creator to this world through mind, and it is through book that they can know who is this creator, and how to worship Him...
3. you said that God has written in our soul so that we can recognise the spiritual truth...yes, I agree. "written in our`soul" simply means created in us.This returns by us back to my previous post wherein I talked about the creation of man.(God's spirit breathed into man): ( When I have fashioned him(in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit....(15:29)
4. Concerning your saying of scholarship, God himself invites us to study the Quran: "Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4:82)"

so, brother, you are invited to study the Quran yourself, and if you find anything controversial, you are welcome to ask (God is inviting you) and we will be happy to answer.....

with my best wishes,
sister DB

 

[Pico]

so, brother, you are invited to study the Quran yourself, and if you find anything controversial, you are welcome to ask (God is inviting you) and we will be happy to answer.....

with my best wishes,
sister DB

I have a question. Now, granted I've never read the whole Quran myself, only parts of it, but I saw this video online where Dr. William Lane Craig (who was a Doctorate in Philosophy and Theology) was talking about some problems he has with the Quran. They seemed very legitimate, especially the part about it borrowing ideas from the apocryphal gospels.

How would a Muslim respond to such allegations?

 

[Bruce Michael]

I have a question. Now, granted I've never read the whole Quran myself, only parts of it, but I saw this video online where Dr. William Lane Craig (who was a Doctorate in Philosophy and Theology) was talking about some problems he has with the Quran. They seemed very legitimate, especially the part about it borrowing ideas from the apocryphal gospels.

How would a Muslim respond to such allegations?

Greetings Pico,
I got this out of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an

The Diatessaron, Protoevangelium of James, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Pseudo-Matthew and the Arabic Infancy Gospel are all alleged to have been sources that the author/authors drew on when creating the Qur'ān.
The Diatessaron especially may have led to the misconception in the Koran that the Christian Gospel is one text. However this is strongly refuted by Muslim scholars, who maintain that Qur'an is the divine word of God without any interpolation, and the similarities exist only due to the one source.

The Arabic Infancy Gospel gives us the name "Zarathustra" in speaking of the one who inspired the Magi.

Arabic Infancy Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[Bruce Michael]

salam brother BM,
I see your point.....but, let me first explain some ideas:

1. the Quran is not written by God, but it is rather inspired by Him:"...say:" God is between me and you, this Quran hath been revealed to me by inspiration....(6:19)"
2. faith consists of two parts: mind and book. people come to know that there is a creator to this world through mind, and it is through book that they can know who is this creator, and how to worship Him...
3. you said that God has written in our soul so that we can recognise the spiritual truth...yes, I agree. "written in our`soul" simply means created in us.This returns by us back to my previous post wherein I talked about the creation of man.(God's spirit breathed into man): ( When I have fashioned him(in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit....(15:29)
4. Concerning your saying of scholarship, God himself invites us to study the Quran: "Do they not consider the Quran (with care)? Had it been from other than God, they would surely have found therein much discrepancy. (4:82)"

so, brother, you are invited to study the Quran yourself, and if you find anything controversial, you are welcome to ask (God is inviting you) and we will be happy to answer.....

with my best wishes,
sister DB

Sorry for "brotherising" you Sister.

You write:

people come to know that there is a creator to this world through mind, and it is through book that they can know who is this creator, and how to worship Him...

Here I would disagree. Yes we can read in a book that there is a Supreme Being, but we are really convinced by a feeling that it is true which goes down right into our physical body.

Atheists do not understand that theists know that there is a God - it is deep felt understanding, not an intellectual argument.

Of course, practices such as drinking alcohol can dull our souls so that we can no longer sense the spirit.

Kind Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[Pico]

Greetings Pico,
I got this out of:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qur'an



The Arabic Infancy Gospel gives us the name "Zarathustra" in speaking of the one who inspired the Magi.

Arabic Infancy Gospel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

So the Arabic Infancy Gospel was taken from apocryphal sources, it seems. The problem with that is that the apocrypha came about during the 2nd century when the apostles and other eyewitnesses to Jesus had passed away. How could one argue that it is a more reliable source than the four gospels?

 

[Bruce Michael]

So the Arabic Infancy Gospel was taken from apocryphal sources, it seems. The problem with that is that the apocrypha came about during the 2nd century when the apostles and other eyewitnesses to Jesus had passed away. How could one argue that it is a more reliable source than the four gospels?

Hello Pico,
Do not the favoured have the Grace of access to the Book of God at any time of God's choosing?

Surely there is wisdom and facts in some of these inspired books. The folk who decided the canon made errors.
The Development of the Canon of the New Testament - Home

The Arabic Infancy Gospel is meant to be based on the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, and Protevangelium of James.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

One of the episodes involves Jesus making clay birds, which he then proceeds to bring to life, an act also attributed to Jesus in Qur'an 5:110

Gospel of James - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Among further traditions not present in the four canonical gospels are the birth of Jesus in a cave, the martyrdom of John the Baptist's father Zachariah during the slaughter of the infants and Joseph's being elderly when Jesus was born. The Nativity reported as taking place in a cave, with its Mithraic overtones, remained in the popular imagination; many Early Renaissance Sienese and Florentine paintings of the Nativity, as well as Byzantine, Greek and Russian icons of the Nativity, show such a setting.

The birth of Jesus in a cave, and that Joseph was elderly when Jesus was born, are correct observations.

Yours Truly,
Br.Bruce

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salam dear brothers,
welcome Pico and BM ( there is no problem in "brotherizing" me...actually, i did the same with a member in this forum...it is my turn now),

first I would like to thank Pico because he gave me the chance to konw about Dr. William Lane Craig....I watched the video and I liked the man...I appreciated his citation of the full Quranic verses without any interruption as some do to present wrong information.... I really admired the man....He seemed to be a man of truth...I think he is one of those that God says about them in the Quran:"....And nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say:"We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant"(5:82).

Dear brothers, you both have agreed upon one thing which is that the Quran is made out of other old holy Books.....It is just a copy of old writings....this argument actually is not new, but it has appeared since the Quran was revealed to Muhammed (pbuh)....I will try to solve this misundestanding, and I depend on God to help me...This argument of Quran's being borrowed from other books is completly repudiated for the following reasons:

1. Christians or Jews do treat the Quran as the Book of Muhammed(pbuh)...Actually, I am not blaming them for they have been programmed to think so since a long time.But, the blame is on scientists, why cant they criticize the Quran as God's message to Muhammed(pbuh)? because, as I think, if they do, they simply admit that Muhammed is the seal of prophets, which a hard thing for them to admit...I really appreciate how hard the situation is....but we are talking about scholar inquiry,lets try....and as you brother BM said if our faith is rockstone, we have nothing to fear.....you said that Muhammed (pbuh) copied from other previous holy Books, and we Muslims say that the Quran is a revelation from the one and the only God who sent Abraham, Moses, and Jesus,and therefore, it was natural for the three books to share the same ideas....It is one message, in fact, sent to all prophets. God says in the Quran:"This is the revelation of the Book in which there is no doubt, from the Lord of the Worlds.3. Or do they say:"he has forged it"? nay, it is the Truth from thy Lord.....(32:2-3)....So, lets submit that this true, and that the Quran is God's message that's why there is similarities between the three messages.
2. Muhamed(pbuh) was unlettered.God says in the Quran:"Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, ...(7:157)". How could unlettered prophet know about the previous scriptures? Why do scientists ignore this historical fact?How could the Prophet (pbuh) know of the previous Books if he hadnt been revealed by God?
3. why should I believe in the Quran as God's message while it mainly repeats the same stories found in the previous Messages? In reality, this is false misconception. The Quran comes with new things..it comes to make things clear... It is the Quran which shows that the Trinity is false misunderstanding of what Jesus said....Why does the Quran clarify this idea and for what purpose? why doesnt the Quran accept the idea of the trinity and Jesus' crucification as it does with other sotries? the answer is simply that the Quran is sent to Muhammed(pbuh) to return by faith to its origine, the worship of the only and the one God, while it keeps on the other stories as they are simply because they were nt corrupted, and they were kept unchanged as they were sent by God.

I hope my ideas are clear. I am Arabic, and I find dificulties in transimitting what I want to say in another language..But, I think you both(Pico and BM) are smart enough to grasp the meaning, arent you?

with my best wishes,
your sister DB

 

[Bruce Michael]

"Jahanam" is the Arabic word for "Hell',

Hi Sr. DB,

Ah, I see now- "Jahanam" is the same as the Hebrew "Gehenna".

Dear brothers, you both have agreed upon one thing which is that the Quran is made out of other old holy Books.....It is just a copy of old writings....

No I wouldn't say that. But apparently according to some scholars the author of the Quran was informed by the works I posted. Also it was stated that:
The Diatessaron especially may have led to the misconception in the Koran that the Christian Gospel is one text.

1. Christians or Jews do treat the Quran as the Book of Muhammed(pbuh)...Actually, I am not blaming them for they have been programmed to think so since a long time.

Who is doing the programming?
Who programed me?
Who programed you?

In truth no one can authorize a book set before you. The denominator is always set by one- you have to decide for yourself. Would you place authority before truth?

We must have religious freedom and make free decisions about our spiritual life. When you come before your Maker you won't able to blame your decisions on someone else. We all have personal responsibility.

2. Muhamed(pbuh) was unlettered.God says in the Quran:"Those who follow the Apostle, the unlettered Prophet, ...(7:157)". How could unlettered prophet know about the previous scriptures? Why do scientists ignore this historical fact?How could the Prophet (pbuh) know of the previous Books if he hadnt been revealed by God?

Do you believe that the Prophet was illiterate? I have read the he must have been able to read some documents to carry on his business.

Nevertheless widespread literacy is a fairly modern phenomenon. In the ancient world most people would have been illiterate. They spread their stories and teachings by word of mouth. No doubt Mohamed would have heard of these teachings. Even the Arabian Christians were using the name "Allah" before Muhamed.

3. why should I believe in the Quran as God's message while it mainly repeats the same stories found in the previous Messages?

Would you say the Quran is closer to Jewish teaching than Christianity?

I hope my ideas are clear. I am Arabic, and I find dificulties in transimitting what I want to say in another language..But, I think you both(Pico and BM) are smart enough to grasp the meaning, arent you?

Your English is very clear- no problem- well done!
One thing though- it's "dialogue".


My Best Wishes as Always,
Br.Bruce

 

[17th Angel]

Would you say the Quran is closer to Jewish teaching than Christianity?

I would say it is closer to Islamic teaching..........

 

[dailogue is the best]

Salam brother BM,
Thank you for discussing and motivating my thinking. I find your questions so challenging that they arise in me the desire to learn more and more. Thank you for that, brother BM.

Actually, I was watching a movie about the people of Cave, when your immportant question:" who is doing the programming? who programmed me? whao programmed you?" invaded my brain....the people of Cave flee from the oppresion of the Roman emperor who used to worship idols. The Roman Empire used to torture those who worship the only God that Jesus called people to worship...the people in the Cave were praying to the only God with words full of monotheism. the words really touched my heart. In essence, we all worship the only and the one God.And I wondred from where does the idea of Trinity come from?


History says that the Emperor Costantine is the one behind the idea of trinity. and who is Costantine to interfere in the teachings of God?t is well-known that the relatioship between the members of the Holy Trinity did not take its last form only in Costantine assembly in 235 A.C (2 hundred and half after Jesus)..

Actually, the idea of the trinity was a result of the Greek methodology:{Trinitarian-or better, triadic, thinking about the primary principle or principles of being was not a Christian innovation.Dyads and triads were philosophical common places among the later Platonist philosophers, and Plato's triume,"Lord God of three natures,teaching,perfection,and practice,whose recorded as Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob," is a notion that can be found, as a whole or in its distinct parts, scattered through many passages in his writings....}. In the first Christian church, a separation happened asa result of the priests' withdrawal from the church consensus, and their establishment of the unipolar dogma which was called" Monophsite Christianity". this movement was an expression of the priests' intellectual independence from the Greek trend which had developed and explained the Christian teaching according to the Greek methodology"


Is this a progammation or not? It is a sample programmation that our Maker wont judge us about it because it becomes a culture and people take it for granted as a Holy truth, while it is not.

I hope I have too much time to answer all your questions, but tomorow I have work, and I have to wake up early....when I ll have time, I ll answer your questions about the illetracy of the prpphet Muhamed(pbuh),whether if the Quran is closer to Jewish teaching than Christianity,and whether if the Quran is God's message or just a copy of previous Holly Books...........

I really enjoy exchanging views with you, BM

with my best wishes,
sister DB

 

[Thomas]

Greetings dialogue is the best —

History says that the Emperor Costantine is the one behind the idea of trinity. and who is Costantine to interfere in the teachings of God? It is well-known that the relatioship between the members of the Holy Trinity did not take its last form only in Costantine assembly in 235 A.C (2 hundred and half after Jesus)..

Sadly this is factually inaccurate on many counts, although a common error and widespread on the internet.

The Council of Nicea in 235 did not address questions of the Trinity, but of the consubstantiality of the Father and the Son, and the question of Christology, as raised by Arius.

The Creed of Nicea was a formula based on the Baptismal Rites practiced by the Church at the time, and was not, as many supposed, written by Constantine. The Emperor did, however, ask that for clarification the phrase "the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God" be inserted so that there could be no misunderstanding, the phrase commonly referred to as "of one substance with the Father".

The Creed ends with "And the Holy Spirit", but there is no mention of "Trinity" in the documents of Nicea, although the tripartite Godhead of Father, Son and Spirit was known and confessed by the whole Church.

Actually, the idea of the trinity was a result of the Greek methodology: {Trinitarian-or better, triadic, thinking about the primary principle or principles of being was not a Christian innovation.Dyads and triads were philosophical common places among the later Platonist philosophers, and Plato's triume,"Lord God of three natures,teaching,perfection,and practice,whose recorded as Abraham,Isaac,and Jacob," is a notion that can be found, as a whole or in its distinct parts, scattered through many passages in his writings....}.

Actually, the Trinity is founded on the inspired and illumined commentaries on Scripture. It is true to say, however, that the Christian Tradition is first and foremost Scripture, and subsequently the reflection upon the meaning and implication of such in the Greek philosophical tradition.

In the first Christian church, a separation happened asa result of the priests' withdrawal from the church consensus, and their establishment of the unipolar dogma which was called "Monophsite Christianity". this movement was an expression of the priests' intellectual independence from the Greek trend which had developed and explained the Christian teaching according to the Greek methodology"

Monophysitism emerged as a serious issue in the fifth century ... it is a denial of the humanity of Jesus Christ, and so can trace its roots back to Docetism and the belief that Christ was not a physical being. It is not strictly a Greek philosophical position, and has nothing to do with the relation of priesthood to the laity.

Peace be with you,

Thomas