Extinction Central

[Muslimwoman]

Not to belittle conservation... but why this constant stream of propaganda against the USA?

Please don't get me wrong, in my home country (UK) some people still go out killing things for fun at weekends and painting the blood on their childrens faces - it disgusts me. Our fish stocks here are so depleted that scientists doubt they will ever recover fully.

My comment about USA was simply because if you look down the list you will see that the numbers for the US are far higher than any other country. Your land mass is considerably larger than other western nations, so perhaps the numbers are misleading?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Afraid I haven't seen anything on this - there are multiple family groups being tracked and I can't find anything specific on the missing infant at present. Anyone finds a link, much appreciated.

Here we go Brian, it gives the name of the baby so maybe you can do a search for updates on its condition:

Update: Baby Gorilla Found Alive After Mass "Execution" in Congo

This is where the baby was taken:

M.G.V.P.

There are actually 2 orphaned babies following the attacks, both have been found and taken to the same place (link above) Ndeze was being looked after by her brother but had to be taken from him or she would die of dehydration without milk. Ndasaki is the second baby and she has pneumonia

This is a really good blog it is by Dr Lucy Spelman, she works for the MGVP so does regular updates on the baby gorillas:

Quest: Mountain Gorillas

Hope that help Brian.

 

[cyberpi]

No, if you'll CAREFULLY read the post and its links you'll see that the statistic is from the CURRENT IUCN Red List, which is a global survey. That wouldn't include animals that went extinct several thousand years ago.

And, I am a U.S. citizen and have been for well over sixty years, and I am thoroughly disgusted and disapproving of our current Governments' attitudes and practices with regard to preserving endangered species. And most of all, I am distraught about the utter contempt shown by U.S. "authorities" towards the preservation of the natural habitats which have supported these species for thousands of years.

Not propaganda, but truth...wake up and smell the B******T being fed to you by the D.C. spin machne !

flow....

I don't know about your government spin theory but MW was quoting the 'EX' extinct list, which is not an endangered species list...

So I did a search to reveal this list:
List of extinct animals of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
It listed as a reference a 2006 IUCN Red List downloaded in Feb 2007.

However, I searched and found this list:
IUCN Red List America EX (Extinct)
... and it appears to NOT include the species found extinct prior to 1,500 years. So thank you for answering my question correctly... maybe it was the Wikipedia edits secretly performed by the CIA?

 

[Muslimwoman]

MW was quoting the 'EX' extinct list, which is not an endangered species list...

Okay so let us look at the other figures for the US as at Dec 2006:

187 Critically endangered

191 Endangered

557 Vulnerable

Well that paints a better picture then. It is one thing to be a patriot but quite another to be mentally blind to our countries failings.

 

[cyberpi]

Okay so let us look at the other figures for the US as at Dec 2006:

187 Critically endangered

191 Endangered

557 Vulnerable

Well that paints a better picture then. It is one thing to be a patriot but quite another to be mentally blind to our countries failings.

So I am a patriot for responding to your fingering of the USA and comparing it with the world? You think you are teaching me something that my country has failed to do?

Very well then please teach me more about biodiversity. Please add up for me the number of all known species of animals and plants found in all of Europe (wild, not zoo). How many countries is that? Then add to that all of the known species of animals and plants found in the Middle East. Then add to that all of the known species of animals and plants found in Northern Africa along the Mediterannean. Include all of the known sea life species of the Mediterannean, Gulf, and Europe. How many countries was that?

Now then, please add up all known species of animals and plants found in the USA... all 50 of the states including Hawaii and Alaska, and the surrounding coastal areas. If you want to make the comparison right, then lets make the comparison right. Teach me about biodiversity and conservation. I want to see in numbers what I have personally witnessed as I have been to Europe, the Middle East, and all over nearly every state of the USA... (and parts of Canada and Mexico). You think the USA is terrible in comparison for not protecting every species of molusk, moth, bird, and wolf... among others, then lets compare with the numbers of a country in Europe, the Middle East, or Northern Africa as a percentage of the total number of species found there. Shall we?

Should you ever visit the USA I would be happy to show you around and you are welcome to point out to me the areas where you think my countries shortcomings are. In fact I'd also be happy to pass along your suggestions to others... but I insist that you come here in person and shed some of my obvious ignorance of the biodiversity found here in the USA first hand. Lets count the species, shall we? You wanted to compare then lets compare.

 

[wil]

"Man cannot destroy the world, the world will survive, man can only make in uninhabitable for man." ~Rush Limbaugh

(of course he was the same guy who pondered why if liberals think a fetus is not human they go out and buy those belly speakers so it can listen to Mozart...)

 

[flowperson]

Good one wil !

Pssst...MW... if you ever visit the USA I can show y'all (hubby included) a few things too ! But I wouldn't be so bold to attempt to guarantee you a male-oriented patriotic tour, jes' plain folks stuff .

flow....

 

[Muslimwoman]

Good one wil !

Pssst...MW... if you ever visit the USA I can show y'all (hubby included) a few things too ! But I wouldn't be so bold to attempt to guarantee you a male-oriented patriotic tour, jes' plain folks stuff .

flow....

Thank you flow, I would much prefer the plain folks stuff. You never know, hubby and I might frighten the life out of you and take you up on that one day.

Cyberpi has just got a bee in his bonnet because he thinks I hate America - I don't, my country has just as many failings but I do not think America is the be all and end of of right and good, nowhere is. I am sorry if that offends his patriotic streak but I am not going to buy into the All Hail the USA hype.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Should you ever visit the USA I would be happy to show you around and you are welcome to point out to me the areas where you think my countries shortcomings are. In fact I'd also be happy to pass along your suggestions to others... but I insist that you come here in person and shed some of my obvious ignorance of the biodiversity found here in the USA first hand. Lets count the species, shall we? You wanted to compare then lets compare.

Will you please climb down off your high horse Cyberpi. Sorry but America is far from perfect, as with all countries. You are welcome to point out the UK's barbaric rituals of stag and foxhunting, our polution of rivers, destruction of green land, etc and I will be right there agreeing with you.

America is not the centre of the universe, it does good and bad for the globe just like every other country - there I said it, sorry if it annoys you.

Alaska, now would that be the place they go every year and club baby seals to death?

 

[Neemai]

If this is so, then evolution is a farce. Were humanity to "develop" and "progress" itself into extinction, microbes would start the process all over again, all else remaining essentially equal...(water, air, balance of heat-light, etc.) In other words, so long as the essential conditions for life remain, and there is microbial life to serve as seed, then the evolutionary chain will continue. Or so says S. Gould.

You make a good point there Juantoo.

'Evolution' simply means change. I thought it was a (common) myth that it actually implies any definite inherent improvement? Either way I think it's dangerous to transfer a complicated biological theory into social models regarding humainty - e.g. Ancient Greeks had realised the Earth was a sphere prior to Jesus's birth (as had Ancient Indian people before them), but then the knowledge was simply lost. Societies get better and worse over time. In the past 50 years we have globally experienced rapid improvement (in terms of technology), which I believe gives us a false sense of "evolved improvement", but socially and spirtually many societies are actually degenerating seriously for the worse.

See also

Koestler, Arthur The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe, 1959, Penguin Books,
1986 edition: ISBN 0-14-055212-X,
1990 reprint: ISBN 0-14-019246-8


don't know where this going, but had to get it off my chest....


... Neemai

 

[flowperson]

Thank you flow, I would much prefer the plain folks stuff. You never know, hubby and I might frighten the life out of you and take you up on that one day.

Cyberpi has just got a bee in his bonnet because he thinks I hate America - I don't, my country has just as many failings but I do not think America is the be all and end of of right and good, nowhere is. I am sorry if that offends his patriotic streak but I am not going to buy into the All Hail the USA hype.

Hi MW, salaam:

Us plain folk would surely welcome y'all if and when y'all be a' comin'...and don't worry about a'scarin' ussins. Many have tried and have eventually failed miserably many times over the term of my existence. Most American are just good people you'll find..of course that usually equates with their degree of self-importance and arrogance as it does everywhere else.

As for C'pi, I believe that the bee(s) migrated from his bonnet to his nether regions quite some time ago, but...c'est la vie my sweet .

flow....

 

[cyberpi]

Cyberpi has just got a bee in his bonnet because he thinks I hate America

Now you you claim to know what I think about you? I think you clearly love America.

I am sorry if that offends his patriotic streak but I am not going to buy into the All Hail the USA hype.

Are you assuming now that I am offended? I didn't see any USA hype... where was it?

Will you please climb down off your high horse Cyberpi. Sorry but America is far from perfect, as with all countries.

Who claimed America was perfect? I've noticed a trend where you finger a statistic and say something like:

Oh and look at the USA 231 species extinct - what are you doing over there??? Whatever it is please stop it.

So I responded but now I am directly or indirectly labelled as an offended patriot sitting on a high horse, blind to my countries failings, of thinking you are angry at the USA, having a degree of self-importance, arrogant, and apparently smelling B******T being fed to me by a D.C. spin machine. I also apparently have a bee somewhere I don't know about.

Good grief... I am questioning the validity of the statistic as a comparison and a singling out of the USA by you, and as a citizen of the USA being asked by a foreigner to stop whatever I am doing... I think I have a right and a responsibility to. That doesn't mean I'm thus ignorant or arrogant... that doesn't mean I'm on a high horse... that doesn't mean I think the USA is better than the countries you know... that doesn't mean I think you are angry at the USA... that doesn't mean I am being fed BS by some spin machine... that doesn't mean I am necessarily for any action the Bush administration has taken in regards to the US (or foreign) environments... that doesn't mean I am necessarily blind to my countries alleged failings... that doesn't mean I have a bee anywhere on me... and that doesn't mean I am just being a patriot of the USA. If it did... surely you can fix me of all these ailments I now have for responding in opposition to the validity of the statistic you asked Americans to do something about.

If I were in the Middle East and talking about the oil reserves that a country had, would I be labelled a male-oriented patriot on a high camel? Will you and Flow be providing more personal labels as I challenge your statistic and discuss the biodiversity in the USA?

I am under the impression that the USA has greater biodiversity and quantity of species than Europe, Northern Africa, and the Middle East. Each of those combined, I don't know. My point is that the USA territorily is a wide range of habitats and climates, rivers, lakes, an Eastern and Western coast, desert, Hawaii and Alaska. The USA territorily has a fair number of species in it, and with the Endangered Species Act there are a lot of those species identified, counted, and tracked by full time employees of the government. They also track some foreign endangered species... but not all of them. My point is... I suggest that the statistic you provided needs to be expressed as a percentage of counted species to remove both the granularity and effort placed into species tracking and counting, and as an expression of any loss in local biodiversity. For example if there are only 10 bird species identified in an area by one group as competing for local resources, and another group identifies 100 species of birds competing for resources in another area, then the loss of an identified species from one area will have a much greater impact on the local biodiversity and food chain than in the other area. So I am directly questioning the validity of the statistic you have drawn my attention to and told me that I am ignorant of my countries failing, and have asked some Americans to do something about.

What label will I now receive for providing further challenge and insight? More labels of ignorance or arrogance? Maybe an environment hater? Maybe an animal killer? A dirty industrial capitalist?

 

[Muslimwoman]

Hi MW, salaam:

Us plain folk would surely welcome y'all if and when y'all be a' comin'...and don't worry about a'scarin' ussins. Many have tried and have eventually failed miserably many times over the term of my existence. Most American are just good people you'll find..of course that usually equates with their degree of self-importance and arrogance as it does everywhere else.

Hi Flow

and I thought Arabic was hard to learn!!!! Do they do American/English translation books for tourists?

I feel sure that America is full of decent, kind, friendly people - as is England and Egypt and everywhere else. It just takes a few rotten apples to spoil a crop (and get media attention).

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

self-importance, arrogant, and apparently smelling B******T being fed to me by a D.C. spin machine. I also apparently have a bee somewhere I don't know about.

Self importance and arrogance, you have got to be kidding. Let me explain where I am coming from on this. My comment about the US and whatever you are doing please stop was meant to be light hearted but with an underlying concern. The figures for the US simply stood out on the list. If it had been Sweden or China I would have said the same thing.

It is my belief that before the arrival of the Europeans in the US, the American Indians respected the land and nothing was hunted to extinction. You are free to correct me if I am wrong. Then 'we' all started arriving and brought with us our love of money and lack of respect for land. Same issue in Australia with the Aboriginal culture - we buggered their land up too.

You do have one of the most biodiverse areas in the world and it is worrying for outsiders to see that being treated with a lack of respect. It is pretty much too late for us, we have knackered our countries but your country is still young and as such you have a responsibilty not to follow in our footsteps. Europe is now trying to fight the tide, return the land where possible back to a natural state.

The industrial revolution began in my country, we then had policemen walking in front of buses with lanterns because the smog was so bad you could not see 10 feet in front of you. The world watches America, we want you to get right what we got wrong and at the present time your country is worrying us. We see your governments policy of rejecting global warming and American corporations ripping down rainforests to earn a quick buck.

We are talking on more than one thread at the moment and our conversations are exclusively about the US and it's policies. Discussion is good but you have to accept that us foreigners have views about the US and t they are doing in the world.

Perhaps you could comment on the following, this is the sort of thing that is worrying people around the world that care about conservation:


The outrageousness of Mr. Bush's comments about the new policy, whose substance belies their truthfulness, pales when the administration's newest proposal is examined. It is a policy that removes protection from endangered species around the world (that has been in place for almost 30 years) ... in order to protect endangered species around the world. On Oct. 12, it was reported that the administration proposes to again allow hunters, circuses and the pet industry to kill, capture and/or import animals that are near extinction in some parts of the world. By doing that, says the administration, we will be protecting those species from extinction. Under the new regulations American trophy hunters will be permitted to kill, among others, the straight-horned markhor in Pakistan, and Morelet's crocodile, an endangered freshwater crocodile whose skin is coveted by U.S. leather importers.

They will be permitted to capture the endangered Asian elephant of India and Southeast Asia who, American zoos and circuses believe, would be much happier living in this country than in their native habitat.

The proposal has been well considered. The administration has discovered that poor countries have no incentives to protect endangered species. By sending in American circuses, zoos and hunters who will pay those countries handsomely for the privilege of killing and capturing endangered species, those countries will be able to take the money and spend it on caring for whatever endangered species remain alive following the Bush sponsored plundering.

Ignoring the fact that the act has been consistently interpreted since 1973 to prohibit exactly the kind of activities the administration will now permit, David Smith, deputy assistant secretary at the Department of Interior for Fish and Wildlife and Parks said: "I think the nature of the beast [not the endangered ones] is such that there are critics who are going to claim some kind of ulterior motive." He's right.

Adam Roberts is one of those people.

Mr. Roberts is a senior research associate at the nonprofit Animal Welfare Institute, an advocacy group for endangered species. Commenting on the proposal he said: "It's a very dangerous precedent to decide that wildlife exploitation is in the best interest of wildlife." Stating what all but someone working for Mr. Bush would consider obvious, he said: "As soon as you place a financial price on the head of wild animals, the incentive is to kill the animal or capture them. The minute people find out they can have an easier time killing, shipping and profiting from wildlife, they will do so."

This is not the only proposal made by the administration to help out endangered species.
In August the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service proposed an exemption to the Wild Bird Conservation Act passed under the administration of George Bush I in 1992. The exemption will allow importation of the blue-fronted Amazon parrot from Argentina. The parrots sell for hundreds of dollars each. If approved, ten nesting parrots will be permitted to be harvested from five nests in every 250 acres of parrot habitat. Thanks to export tariffs, each 250-acre plot will produce $400 to $800 a year to help support the remaining parrots. The money can be used for such things as bird houses for the remaining parrots.

Without any doubt I can show you such things from any country in the world but American policy drives so many others, so this seems a worrying trend.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Cyberpi,

Be heartened dude!! At least non-Americans know more and care more about the US than the average American knows about our global village. Hope you keep some anti-histamine handy

Tao

 

[cyberpi]

Self importance and arrogance, you have got to be kidding.

Flow's words.

My comment about the US and whatever you are doing please stop was meant to be light hearted but with an underlying concern.

Yes, I agree, light hearted and heavy minded.

Then 'we' all started arriving and brought with us our love of money and lack of respect for land. Same issue in Australia with the Aboriginal culture - we buggered their land up too.

The dreaded 'We'?! You speak for a collective, the majority of which you've never seen?

You do have one of the most biodiverse areas in the world and it is worrying for outsiders to see that being treated with a lack of respect.

It is interesting to me when someone speaks of what they see after admitting that they have not seen it.

It is pretty much too late for us, we have knackered our countries but your country is still young and as such you have a responsibilty not to follow in our footsteps.

Have you no faith?

Europe is now trying to fight the tide, return the land where possible back to a natural state.

With face paint, according to you. America appears to me mostly composed of individuals, some of which might do one thing and some of which might do another. I tend to see a large animal being eaten whole when anyone speaks of what 'we' do.

The world watches America, we want you to get right what we got wrong and at the present time your country is worrying us.

... or what 'we' want.

We see your governments policy of rejecting global warming and American corporations ripping down rainforests to earn a quick buck.

... or what 'we' see.

Discussion is good but you have to accept that us foreigners have views about the US and t they are doing in the world.

... and what 'we' view.

Perhaps you could comment on the following, this is the sort of thing that is worrying people around the world that care about conservation:

Perhaps I could... I think the image / propaganda meter is off the charts now so I'm going to pursue a bit of local reality until you get me those numbers. Then I might be happy to comment on someone else's comments for you once again.

Without any doubt I can show you such things from any country in the world but American policy drives so many others, so this seems a worrying trend.

Without any doubt. I am convinced that you can show me things from ANY country... especially the ones that you and I have never seen.

<< Sways back and forth >> << eyes getting sleepy now >> << Don't look behind the curtain >> << monotone voice coming to me >> "American policy drives so many other countries and this is a worrying trend." << SMACK >> << Wakes up now >>

What were we talking about? Thank you for answering my first question. I hope that you and I (avoiding all 'we' for now), do discuss that fear in the near future.

 

[cyberpi]

Be heartened dude!! At least non-Americans know more and care more about the US than the average American knows about our global village. Hope you keep some anti-histamine handy

I'll need all the histamine I can to get that plank out of my nose.

 

[Snoopy]

and I thought Arabic was hard to learn!!!! Do they do American/English translation books for tourists?

Well on forums like this I use Alta Vista Babel Fish.

s.

 

[Muslimwoman]

The dreaded 'We'?! You speak for a collective, the majority of which you've never seen?

I do not speak for Americans in any way, shape or form but I am aware that, with the exception the Native American Indian, all inhabitants of America are descendants of other countries and cultures.

With face paint, according to you. America appears to me mostly composed of individuals, some of which might do one thing and some of which might do another. I tend to see a large animal being eaten whole when anyone speaks of what 'we' do.

Every country has individuals that do one thing or another but surely yopu accept that overall the 'country' tends to have one effect or another on it's environement.

Perhaps I could... I think the image / propaganda meter is off the charts now so I'm going to pursue a bit of local reality until you get me those numbers. Then I might be happy to comment on someone else's comments for you once again.

That is one way to avoid an issue and bury your head in the sand I supose. It explains much.

Without any doubt. I am convinced that you can show me things from ANY country... especially the ones that you and I have never seen.

I have this strange ability, it is called reading, I know it is bizarre isn't it. I have never been to space but I know that space junk is a problem we humans are causing. Or maybe that is all propaganda??

If your responses are a demonstration of American thinking then much is explained and 'we' have much to fear.

 

[flowperson]

Well I've found that a few people in America think a lot about lots of issues. But time is mostly the limiting factor in all of this. Having sufficient time to think and reflect is always an issue here. My observation is that most people here these days usually observe and react without much thought. But then, IMHO, that is a result of about two generations of media conditioning to manipulate us to behave that way.

Anyway, here's a couple of items of interest that I ran across recently.

Best....flow....

Europe Now Blamed for Decimation of American Bison | LiveScience

Scientists ask: Where have all the dolphins gone?