rabbinic interpretation and jewish law is neither "worship" nor "shirk"

[Abdullah]

Here are some Scholary views that explains the differences of opinions amongst the Sunni Scholars regardnig this issue:

regarding a hanafi choosing an aqeeda; maturidi or ashari? he wants to choose ashari as non muslims will eneter paradise; this the question

and the answer given to this is

As-salaamu Alaykum

I first would like to correct you in saying that the Ash'ari school of
thought does not say that the nonMuslims will go to Jannah. But it
says that it is possible for Allah to send them to Jannah (which means
going against His Word that he will never forgive them). The Maturidi
school of though says that it is not possible for not muslims to go to
Jannah as that would entail Allah going against His Word and this is
not possible.

At the end of the entire arguement both schools of thought concede
that the nonMuslims will never enter paradise. There is a third
opinion amongst the scholars that Allah will not allow the nonMuslims
to enter Jannah but He through His mercy will end their torment by
erasing their existance. This view however is extremely weak as in the
Qur'an the words Daaiman Abadan have been used for their staying in
Hell also (Surah Jinn).

Ultimately it would not make a difference in what your friend would
want to believe as the Qur'an is the final word on this. My sincere
hope is that his family accepts Islam and thus save themselves from
Hell. My only advice is that he continues to make effort in showing
them that Islam is the true religion. If Allah wills they will accept.

MAy Allah guide us all.

Was-salaam

Mufti Ebrahim Moosa

sunniforum.com - View Single Post - Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity?

Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and an Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states:

“Allah tells us in the Qur’an, “We are not in the habit of punishing a nation until We have sent a messenger ( to them).” (Al-Isra’: 15) bidding them of what they must be doing and forbidding them of what they must be refraining from. Based on numerous such verses in the Qur’an, great scholars such as Imam Al-Ghazali have stated that those who have not heard of the message of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, will not be punished for failing to accept his message. To punish people for failing to accept a message that they know nothing about is utterly contrary to the divine justice which is at once immaculate and beyond question.

While it is true that they will not be punished for their failure to accept the message of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, however, one must not conclude from this they are totally free of any accountability for their actions. Allah tells us repeatedly in the Qur’an that He has sent a messenger in every nation with the right guidance, and that each messenger spoke the language of the people he was sent to.

Furthermore, we are also told that Allah has created every human being with an innate knowledge of what is good for it and what is bad for it, and that everyone has a responsibility to foster such virtues that his nature recognizes as good and shun those that are abhorrent. (See Surat Ash-Shams: 7-9 )

To conclude: Those who have not heard of the message of the Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, will be judged by Allah by the message they have received from earlier prophets and messengers that were sent to them as well as by the innate sense of good and bad embedded in their own nature.” (Quoted, with slight modifications, from: Islamic Institute of Toronto)

IslamonLine.net

The Arabs, who died before the advent of Islam will enter Paradise if they had believed in the Divine Messages sent to them. However, those who did not believe in those Messages are disbelievers and they will not enter Paradise.

However, there is disagreement among Muslim scholars regarding those who had no access to the call of any Prophet during their lifetime.

Some Muslim scholars maintain that this group of people should have pondered over Allah’s Creation till they reach the truth. If they managed to reach the truth by their deep thinking, then they will be spared Allah’s Punishment, but not vice versa.

Other Muslim scholars state that people are to adhere to religious ordinances and to proclaim faith only if Allah Almighty sends them a divine legislation through a Messenger or a Prophet. This group backed their view by citing the following verse: “We never punish until We have sent a messenger.” (Al-Isra’: 15)

IslamonLine.net

The word Kafir is derived from the root word ‘Kufr’ which means to deny. Any person who is not a Muslim is a Kaafir as he rejects the religion of Islam – its beliefs, principles and practices.

and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

Ask-Imam.com [9939] what is kafir? Is it forbidden to call non-Muslims as “kafirs”? Is this statement correct or the usage of the word “kafir” correct: “Saint Paul is a kafir name, and Ahmed is a Muslim name.”

words of Shaykh Hamza Yusuf:

I interjected at one point and mentioned Imam al- Ghazzali’s orthodox and yet satisfying view presented in his intriguing Faisal al-tafriqah that suggests that the majority of Christians and Jews and even peoples of other faiths and creeds could ultimately gain salvation since they did not reject a true and compelling presentation of Islam.

What they rejected rather was the tragic misrepresentation through distortion or the bad behavior of those who claimed to follow the true teachings of the Prophet Muhammad. Thus, according to Imam al-Ghazzali, this allowed for God’s ultimate forgiveness for the masses of humanity.

Learn about Islam--Beliefnet.com

my comment regarding Imam Al-Ghazalis view: I think the Imaam was reffering to the masses of non-Muslims, from the advent of the Prophet [saw] up to his time [middle ages?], and by implication, any-time in which conditions remain basically the same, i.e, the masses recieving a distorted view of Islam.

We should bear in mind that from the itme of the Prophet [saw] up till around the 19th century or so, the masses of Europeans were just recieving propaganda lies from their religous leaders, that Islam is a barbaric religion, etc, but nowadays, many non-Muslims [the average joe?] are clued up about media propaganda and spin [thus it should naturally occur to them that the bad stuff which is associated to Islam by the media, is not neccassarily true], and many have/have had access to original Islamic teachnigs via the internet, books, Islamic dawah [message spreading] litterature, and Muslim missionaries.

Peace to all.

 

[bananabrain]

What that lady [ra] has answered is correct, and I never said that people will go to hell in the sense she meant it; i.e, I never said that your gonig to hell, or that all non-Muslims will go to hell, for we simply dont know the seal of one's life that is why we cannot be sure who is gonig where, and I have explianed this to Muslimwoman before that we can only describe the actions and the kind of seal of one's life that will lead to hell; and that is what I've been doing; describing the actions and seal of one's life that leads to hell.

this whole argument is basically old chestnut #3: pick a semantic quibble and use it to argue your way out of a hole. forget the whole "hell" thing and what "going to hell" involved - that's not *actually* the issue and you know it. the issue is how you are [mis]representing islam as denigrating other religions and, consequently, how you define kufr. to be precise: i am not arguing about what the spiritual consequences of the theology are, i am arguing about what the theology is in the first place. to recap: you are maintaining that anyone who has had islam presented to them and has not converted to islam with a capital I is considered by you to be in a state of kufr. this includes the following:

a) all jews since the C7th who have received a "clear message of islam" and remain jews *by religion* (as opposed to any ethnic definition) - this includes *me*
b) any christian since the C7th, as above
c) all jews since the death of jesus who did not become christians
d) all christians who believe in the crucifixion, resurrection and assumption, to say nothing of trinitarian theology

basically, this amounts to a disingenuous use by you of terms such as ahle qitab because, by your own definition, this really only covers post-C7th jews and christians who convert to islam. and, in fact, they're just regular muslims anyway. however, the questions you suggest that Muslimwoman (who i thought you were ignoring, but perhaps you have decided that politeness might be a good idea) asks this lady scholar would certainly help us in our quest to clarify the muddy waters of your opinions.

i would particularly like to ask the following in relation to this:

Is 'Judaism' and 'Christianty' distorted from the original teachings of Moses [as] and Isa [as]?, and is it kufr [takes one out of God true religion] to reject the Prophet Jesus [as] and Muhammad [saw]?

what NON-QUR'ANIC evidence is there that there was such a thing as the "original teachings" of moses and jesus. i'm not talking about islamic interpretation or hearsay. i'm talking about evidence that these original teachings actually existed - say, for example, a piece of law that has been removed from the text of the Torah.

Can I say that any non-Muslim will end up in hell? no, for the reason that I dont know what their seal will be, i.e, of wether they will convert to Islam before they die or not. Also there is the case for the ashari's [one of the two valid theological Schools in ahle Sunnah, i.e Sunni Islam] that they cannot be sure...of who has and who hasn't received a clear message of Islam

ok, to save you obfuscating any more, how about you admit that you consider *me* a kuffar at this point in time, in that i have presumably received a "clear message of islam" from at least yourself and am not considering conversion? that would be a start - and stop telling me you've explained things to Muslimwoman and she hasn't understood them, because it seems pretty clear to me that she just doesn't think your explanations actually stack up - and neither do i. pasting huge quotes from this or that sheikh is no substitute for actually understanding the arguments yourself.

We should bear in mind that from the time of the Prophet [saw] up till around the 19th century or so, the masses of Europeans were just receiving propaganda lies from their religous leaders, that Islam is a barbaric religion, etc, but nowadays, many non-Muslims [the average joe?] are clued up about media propaganda and spin [thus it should naturally occur to them that the bad stuff which is associated to Islam by the media, is not necessarily true], and many have/have had access to original Islamic teachnigs via the internet, books, Islamic dawah [message spreading] literature, and Muslim missionaries.

certainly i would consider that my views on islam are not based upon propaganda from my religious leaders (i wonder why you don't question whether your own views on judaism are not based on precisely this?) or any of the things mentioned above but are rather based upon dialogue with muslims and a reasonable acquaintance with islamic history, law, practice and theology. therefore i'd say i'd had a "clear message", as you put it.

I interjected at one point and mentioned Imam al- Ghazzali’s orthodox and yet satisfying view presented in his intriguing Faisal al-tafriqah that suggests that the majority of Christians and Jews and even peoples of other faiths and creeds could ultimately gain salvation since they did not reject a true and compelling presentation of Islam.

it has been 2000-odd years since jesus and 1300-odd since muhammad and some people still seem to think that they just have to find the magic argument to convince us to abandon judaism and adopt other religions. it hasn't worked yet.... perhaps you should ask yourself if it's possible that the ever-convenient excuse, namely that we are wilful deniers and are just being deliberately obstructive, doesn't actually stack up?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[bob x]

Abdullah, have you considered that you may be committing a grave sin by trying to give us a "true presentation of Islam"? If we never hear such a thing, we are in no danger, but if we do, then we might reject it.

 

[Muslimwoman]

if a non-Muslim recieves a clear message of Islam, and thereafter he/she rejects it and dies rejecting [i.e, dies while not having converted to Islam] does he/she go to hell?

Shalom BB

We are fully aware that scholars opinions on this question range from 'they must be given a clear understanding of the true Islam' to 'even if they never hear of Islam they must come to it's belief by themselves'. Bit of room for manouvre in there I would say.

The crux of my argument is that it is only G-d that can decide if a person has received that message, as it is only G-d that can decide whether you truly believe in him. As many scholars point out, if a person has seen the terrorist attrocities commited by Muslims and believe that to be an Islamic act taught by our faith, then can they ever be considered to have received the true message of Islam? The answer is NO. We know that anyone that has not received the true message will be judged by G-d alone on their deeds during their life.

We both know BB that a true love of G-d comes from the heart not from books and rituals. I have no doubt that G-d is fully aware of this too.

Salaam
Sally

 

[Abdullah]

the issue is how you are [mis]representing islam

Well if your reffernig to the blunt ways I have put those views across, when you say I've been "misrepresenting Islam", then I have apologised for it, but if your saying that the views themselves are not Islamic [no matter how nicely I put it to people] then I have shown you evidence that they are the mainstream views, so what evidence do you have that these views are infact not the correct Islamic ones?; you may say that you choose to beleive the tiny minority of liberal Muslims concerning this matter, but surely presenting the views of consensus and mainstream Islam cannot be deemed 'misrepresentnig Islam'? can it, even thuogh them views may not be to the non-Muslims liking?; isn't the views of the mainstream and consensus that represents a religion, or is it the views of the verry few minority?

you are maintaining that anyone who has had islam presented to them and has not converted to islam with a capital I is considered by you to be in a state of kufr. this includes the following:

a) all jews since the C7th who have received a "clear message of islam" and remain jews *by religion* (as opposed to any ethnic definition) - this includes *me*
b) any christian since the C7th, as above
c) all jews since the death of jesus who did not become christians
d) all christians who believe in the crucifixion, resurrection and assumption, to say nothing of trinitarian theology

The state of kufr is exactly the way you have understood it above, but the message of Ilsam recieved has to be an undistorted one.

I would also go further as to say that the state of kufr is as described as above, and also, if a person has not recieved a 'clear message of Islam', or has not even heard anything about Islam at all [such as communities living in remote locations such as rainforests, etc] then he yet has the responsibility to arrive at the fact of monothiesm via his intellect, thus only if he is a monothiest in the true sense of the word, i.e, God without partners [so a camaflage/disguised polythiesm such as the trinity conception does not count here], he will be spared from punishment or otherwise not; so all non-Muslims such as the Christians who associate divinity to Jesus [pbuh], hindus who worship idols, or athiests who dont beleive in God, etc, wont be exempt from Gods punishment if they die as non-Muslims; this is the matarudi view that is accepted by the consensus to be valid, and is based on substantial evidence.

basically, this amounts to a disingenuous use by you of terms such as ahle qitab because, by your own definition, this really only covers post-C7th jews and christians who convert to islam.

It seems that you are having difficutly of how I am defining the 'ahle kithab'; I tried to be as clear as possible, and I just fail to see how you can consider any of my definitions to be 'hypocrytical', 'disingenuous', etc, cuold you quote me on what I said and then explain of why you thnik that there is hypocrisy involved in them definitions, for I am totally at a lost of what cuold have made you come to such a conlclusion

what NON-QUR'ANIC evidence is there that there was such a thing as the "original teachings" of moses and jesus.

Well one source of non-Quranic evidences that I know of is the contradictions in the old and New testaments, and also the contradictions in the interpretation of Christianty and Judaism [if their not directly derived from verses of the two Bibles, with simmilar apperant meanings], for the contradctions prove that those couldn't have been the original teachings of Moses [as] or jesus [as]. for God's teachnigs obviuosly would be free of contradictions.

how about you admit that you consider *me* a kuffar at this point in time, in that i have presumably received a "clear message of islam" from at least yourself and am not considering conversion? that would be a start -

Why do you need me to spell this out letter by letter? ; isn't it obvious yet? ; ofcourse your a kaafir [according to Islam], for you probably know a lot more about Islam than the average Muslim and you have rejected it , i.e, not converted to a Muslim.

You are a kuffar with a big K to possibly the majority of muslims, for the matarudi School of fiqh, who the Hanafi's generally adhere to [and at least half of the muslims of the world are Hanafis] consider the state of kufr to be temporary as well as permanent, i.e, you are a kuffar now, but if you convert to Islam in the future, you will be a Muslim then, thus in this circumstance your current state of kufr will be temporary, and if you dont ever convert to Islam before you die, then you'll be a permanent kaafir.

The Ashari School of theology will reserve the 'kuffar' verdict from you, for they only deem this state to be a permanent state, i.e, if you convert to Islam in the future, then you would never have been a kaafir with the capital K, and if you die as a non-Muslim, then you would be a Kaafir with a big K.

Before you allege that my above view is a 'misrepresentation' of islam, listen to Shaykh hamza explain both these view is the following link:

Sheikh Hamza Yusuf: Creed Of Imam Al Tahawi p5

I know for a person to hear from someone that they are a rejector of God's one and only true religion, is not a pleasant thnig to hear, but you cant blame me on this one, since you yourself asked to haer it

And if your thniking that my explanations of what constitues kufr was to imply that your a kuffar, then your mistaken for the explanations were oly inp response to relevent queries, and posts. I really do not harbour ill will towards anyone, and certainly dont get any satisfaction from implying to anyone or telling anyone that they are kuffar, for even the knowledge that somenoe is a kaafir makes me sad, and I sincrely pray for those [out of love and care] people for Allah to save them

therefore i'd say i'd had a "clear message", as you put it.

So according to Islam, if you die without converting, you will have no excuse for your rejection of the turth.

some people still seem to think that they just have to find the magic argument to convince us to abandon judaism and adopt other religions.

This is a misunderstanding as far as it is associated with Muslims, for we firmly beleive that guidance lies only in the Hands of Allah and Allah guides only who'm He wills and leaves astray who'm He wills, our duty is only to convey the message [and hope and pray].

it hasn't worked yet....

Allah is converting many Jews and Christians to Islam; here is a website of Jewish converts to Islam:

! Jews for Allah ** Jews for Allah !

perhaps you should ask yourself if it's possible that the ever-convenient excuse, namely that we are wilful deniers and are just being deliberately obstructive, doesn't actually stack up?

Kufr is a state in whcih a person denies what his own soul recoginses as the truth, and i'll give you an example by a comparison:

The average joe, knows about being biased, subjective etc, than from being impartial and objective [they may not know these words itself, but from their conscience, they will be able to recognise these states]. Now if any tom dick and harry is impartial and objective about the iraq war, they would know that Amercia was wrong to invade Iraq, but many millions of westerners support the Iraq war out of having a biased 'patriotism' for their goverments and armies, and other subjective reasons based on their interests and emotions [such as hatred, desire for their nation to rule and subjugate, desire for financial and economic gains etc], and these people who support the iraq war, if they were true to themselves [if they thought according to their God given innate fitrah/conscienciousness] they'd have to admit that they are wrong in supporitng the war.

Their is now overwhelming evidence that the Iraq war is only motivated by corporate greed and the whole initial 'WMD', justification for the war were manipulative lies, thus the fact that the Iraq war is morally wrong, is obvious to all, thus although there are people who support it and will aruge [deceive themselves] that it is just, their own souls will testify to the fact that the Iraq war is morally wrong and that there is no justification for it.

Allah says in the Quran that the kaafirs will not cease to be in doubt about the Quran, and this possibly indicates that the state of kufr is not only one where a person is a hundred percent sure that Islam is the truth and thereafter he becomes an open enemy to God by rejecting it [alothugh this state is kufr too], but it is also a state where a person, out of being influenced by subjective thoughts and feelings, [whcih can range from feelings of hate, pride [for their own religion/culture/civilisation,etc], arrogance, superiroity complex, self interests such as a strong linking and desire for the lifestyle their used to, etc], convinves [decieves] himself that he is right concerning his choice for rejection of Islam, but at the same time, he will know that he is not being objective and truly sincere about his choice, and within his subconcience [although he totally disregards the calling of his subconcience] he will know that Islam is the truth, and I think this is what is meant by 'and their [the disbeleivers] own souls testify to the truth'.

Shakyh hamza Yusuf says that, there will allways be critical voices against Islam [and by implication, against Islamic views that are essential to adopt to save oneself from kufr] despite there being overwhelming evidence for it, and that kufr is the state where a person decides to adopt the critical voices, over the overwhelimng evidence. So from that we can see that even the most moderate of Scholars dont regard kufr to be a state where a person is a hundred percent sure or convinced about the truth of Islam and then rejects it [i,e, doesn't convert to Islam], for just choosing the adopt the critical voices over the overwhelimng evidence is enough, for the overwhelimng evidence 'testifies to one's own soul regardnig it's truth' despite them choosing to adopt the critical voices.

But this is only one Islamic view...and theres even a view that if a message of Islam makes a person see that it could be possible that Islam is the truth, then if he rejects Ilsam after that, that is enough to render his a kaafir, for the mere thuoght that it could be possiblly the truth, should naturally make him look into it further [for it is a natural insitnct in the human mind/heart to 'play it safe' and make a sincere effort to verify something, which the rejection of could lead one to etenal damnation, if it should be the truth] and if he deos not, then he'd be defynig his own conscienciousness and common sense, and thus 'ignoring the message of Allah' could render him a kaafir.

Here is a link of a good explanation from a Scholar regarding what constitutes the state of kufr:

sunniforum.com - View Single Post - Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity?

And the student who requested that explanation from the Scholar, understood the following regardnig what constitutes kufr:

Basically, in a nutshell, from what i've been taught this is the case:

a) Person X is unreached by da'wah but is a conceptual monotheist. <--- Amensty
b) Person X has been reached of the da'wah but through non-Muslim sources which have distorted the message to a high degree. <--- Amnesty
c) Person X has been reached the undistorted da'wah, but has been told VERY little about Islam, yet he still believes Islam is rationally possible (although he does not chose to accept it, at least now) <--- No Amnesty, since he believes it is rationally possible to be truth.
d) Person X has been reached by the undistorted da'wah and learns much about Islam and believes it is rationally possible but decides not to accept it. <-- No Amnesty, since he is rejecting the message.

Why does person (d) reject the message? Many reasons:
1) Which is the most prevelant reason, and the reason of Abu Jahl, he does not want to follow the fiqh that goes along with the new religion.
2) Blind following of forefathers.
3) Arrogance.
4) Love of the world.
5) Ingratefulness to God.
etc. and you can get all of these reasons from the Qur'an.

Belief is a CHOICE. It is IMPOSSIBLE to find the da'wah as rationally impossible b/c it is DIVINE. Therefore those who find it rationally impossible have obviously recieved the distorted message (or may have mental retardation, or other mental/learning disabilities). And those who find it rationally possible have been reached by the undistorted message. And really, when you finally look at it like that, the Qur'an makes ALOT more sense to you when it tells you why people do not believe. Because the people's minds know that the message is rationally possible, but they are making up any argument they can against it because they do not want to follow the fiqh, or they say "why does a human being get the message" or they are arrogant, or they are deluded, etc.

sunniforum.com - View Single Post - Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity?

The following link discusses this issue in depth:

Do ALL Kafirs/Non-muslims go to Hell for Eternity? - sunniforum.com

Peace and guidance to all

 

[Abdullah]

ps; sorry about the typos in the above post; didn't have time to correct them as my son was pestering me to go on the computer

 

[Abdullah]

Quote:
Originally Posted by bananabrain
you are maintaining that anyone who has had islam presented to them and has not converted to islam with a capital I is considered by you to be in a state of kufr. this includes the following:

a) all jews since the C7th who have received a "clear message of islam" and remain jews *by religion* (as opposed to any ethnic definition) - this includes *me*
b) any christian since the C7th, as above
c) all jews since the death of jesus who did not become christians
d) all christians who believe in the crucifixion, resurrection and assumption, to say nothing of trinitarian theology

Just a quick note on the above:

c] would be more correct it it said: "all Jews who recieved the message of Islam from the Prophet Jesus [pbuh] or his diciples or from anyone else, and rejected him"; this would apply to Jews who rejected him while Jesus [pbuh] was alive and after his death. If a time came when the original Message of Jesus [pbuh] [i.e, there is no God but Allah and jesus [pbuh] is his Prophet/Messenger] was distorted, and thus no Jew heard this original message, then they may not be included in the 'kaafir' catogory which results from rejecting Jesus [pbuh].

[SIZE=+1]4: 150. Lo! those who disbelieve in Allah and His messengers, and seek to make distinction between Allah and His messengers, and say: We believe in some and disbelieve in others, and seek to choose a way in between; [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4: 151. Such are disbelievers in truth; and for disbelievers We prepare a shameful doom. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]4:152. But those who believe in Allah and His messengers and make no distinction between any of them, unto them Allah will give their wages; and Allah was ever Forgiving, Merciful. [/SIZE]

Peace

 

[Abdullah]

And on the subject of what constitutes kufr, here are some relevent articles:

Some Manifestations of Kufr

Considering Non-Muslims to be Muslims

Pereniallism is believing all religions are ok.

No religion ever came and said that all religions are ok. This is a new innovation becoming prevalent in our times. This contradicts what Allah (swt) says:

The only religion in the sight of Allah is Islam:

“Truly, the religion with Allah is Islam. Those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) did not differ except, out of mutual jealousy, after knowledge had come to them. And whoever disbelieves in the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, signs, revelations, etc.) of Allah, then surely, Allah is Swift in calling to account.” (3:19)

“And whoever desires a religion other than Islaam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.” (Aali ‘Imraan, 3:85)

“To you is your religion, and to me is my religion.” (Al-Kaafiroon, 109:6)

“Today, I have completed your religion, perfected My blessing upon you, and I have decreed Al-Islaam as the religion for you.” (Al-Maai’dah, 5:3)

“Some of you are disbelievers and some of you are believers.”
(At-Taghaabun, 64:2)

One misunderstood verse

“Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.” (2:62)

This is responded to by the ayah,

“Indeed, they are disbelievers who say: Allaah is Christ the son of Mary… They do disbeleive who say: Allaah is one of three in a Trinity..” (Al-Maa’idah, 5:72-73)

Then Allah (swt) describes the true disbelievers as being those who make distinction between the Prophets.

“Surely, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and seek to make a distinction between Allaah and His Messengers, and say, `We believe in some and disbelieve in others,’ and seek to take a way between; these are the real disbelievers and we have prepared for unbelievers a humiliating punishment.” (An-Nisaa’, 4:150-151)

Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Quran and Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al-Mushrikun will abide in the Fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)

Regarding the ayah quoted earlier, 2:62 – those who believe and the Christians *of their times*, and the Jews of their times. The other meaning is those who believe – by converting to Islam.

“I swear by Him in Whose hand is Muhammad’s soul, there is none from among the Jews and the Christians (as of my prophethood) who hears about me and then dies without believing in the message with which I have been sent, but that he will be among the dwellers of the Fire.” (Muslim)

We believe in religious exclusivity, and this concept is not exclusive to Muslims. The average person from other religions believe the same thing. Just like Christians say you must believe Jesus otherwise you will not be saved.
To claim other religions are ok, then it is like saying there was no reason for the Prophet (saw) to be sent – since the other religions are rightly guided. Our belief in religious exclusivity does not affect the way in which we interact with those from other faiths.

“Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion and did not drive you out of your homes. Verily, Allah loves those who deal with equity. It is only as regards those who fought against you on account of religion, and have driven you out of your homes, and helped to drive you out, that Allah forbids you to befriend them. And whosoever will befriend them, then such are the Zalimun (wrong-doers those who disobey Allah). (58:8-9)

Some Manifestations of Kufr « Aqeedah

The hellfire, in its turn, is really a mercy to believers, a fire that Allah has built it in front of the wrong road so that we will not go in the direction leading away from endless happiness. Allah moreover has made the key to paradise a simple matter, to acknowledge that there is no god but God, and that Muhammad is His slave and messenger, which entails accepting everything conveyed to us by Allah as He intended it, and everything conveyed to us by the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) as he intended it. From the very simplicity of entering Islam, many Muslims assume that the criterion for leaving it, for kufr, must be equally simple.

It is not. Rather, the things we must believe, “everything conveyed to us by Allah as He intended it, and everything conveyed to us by the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) as he intended it” resolve themselves, upon reflection, into three categories:

(1) matters about Islam that everyone knows, which even a child raised among Muslims would know, technically termed ma‘lum min al-din bi d-darura or “necessarily known as being of the religion”;

(2) matters that not everyone knows;

(3) and matters that are disagreed upon even by “those who know,” the ulema or scholars.

Affirmation or denial of tenets of faith within each category vary in their eternal consequences because of their relative accessibility, and the individual’s opportunities to find them out.

Things That Everyone Knows

To deny anything of the first category above constitutes plain and open unbelief. It includes such things as denying the oneness of Allah, the attributes of prophethood, that prophetic messengerhood has ended with Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace); the resurrection of the dead; the Final Judgement; the recompense; the everlastingness of paradise and hell; the obligatoriness of the prayer, zakat, fasting Ramadan, or the pilgrimage; the unlawfulness of wine or adultery; or anything else that is unanimously concurred upon and necessarily known by Muslims, since there is no excuse not to know these things in the lands of Islam; though for someone new to the religion, or raised in a wilderness, outside of the lands of Islam, or some other place where ignorance of the religion is rife and unavoidable, their ruling becomes that of the second category. As Imam Nawawi explains:

Any Muslim who denies something that is necessarily known to be of the religion of Islam is adjudged a renegade and an unbeliever (kafir) unless he is a recent convert or was born and raised in the wilderness or for some similar reason has been unable to learn his religion properly. Muslims in such a condition should be informed about the truth, and if they then continue as before, they are adjudged non-Muslims, as is also the case with any Muslim who believes it permissible to commit adultery, drink wine, kill without right, or do other acts that are necessarily known to be unlawful (Sharh Sahih Muslim, 1.150).

read on:

Shadhili Tariqa - Iman, Kufr, and Takfir

“Disbelief” [kufr that puts a person outside of Islam] includes:

(1) reviling the religion of Islam, or Allah Most High, or the Prophet (Allah Most High bless him and give him peace);

(2) denying any matter necessarily known to be of the religion of Islam, that is established by a text from either the Holy Qur’an or mutawatir[4] hadith, provided the text is incontestable as evidence[5] and there is no pretext (shubha) for disagreement about it;[6]

(3) denying any matter established by unanimous consensus of all the prophetic Companions (Sahaba), provided it its unanimity is unquestionably established, and it was explicitly stated by all, not merely tacitly agreed to;

(4) denying the existence of Allah Most High;

(5) believing that things cause effects through themselves or by their nature, without the will of Allah Most High;

(6) denying a matter of unquestionable scholarly consensus (ijma‘ qat‘i);

(7) denying the existence of the angels, the jinn, or the heavens;

(8) believing something intrinsically unlawful whose its unlawfulness is unquestionably established, such as drinking wine, to be lawful (halal)—as opposed to [something not intrinsically unlawful, such as] the property of another [which is not unlawful in itself], for it is unlawful for an extrinsic reason [namely, the other’s ownership of it];

(9) sarcasm about any ruling of Sacred Law,[7] or quoting a statement of unbelief—even jokingly, without believing it—when one’s intention is sarcasm [about religious matters];

(10) demeaning any prophet, or saying that prophethood is acquired [by spiritual works];

(11) calumny against ‘A'isha the wife of the Prophet (Allah Most High bless him and give him peace);

(12) or denying that the Prophet’s message (Allah Most High bless him and give him peace) was intended for the entire world

Shadhili Tariqa - Iman, Kufr, and Takfir

Peace

 

[Zaakir]

kaffir - non believers

 

[Zaakir]

ABDULLAH
can a just ask are you a member of that tariqa atall?cos ive been thinking about joining , or have u just posted their websyt, if u are part of the tariqa, can u let me know, i have few questions if thats ok
jazakAllah khair

 

[Abdullah]

Salaam bro

I'm the worst person to ask about that tarika bro, for I dont know nothing about them whatsoever

Just posted up the article of Shaykh Nuh from that site.

Sorry couldn't be of much help

Salaam

 

[Muslimwoman]

kaffir - non believers

You may like to read these definitions by Dr Badawi, Zaakir:

IslamOnline.net - Shari'ah & Humanity

Salaam

 

[Abdullah]

InshAllah I have said enough on this thread to clarify the Islamic views regarding the queries raised, thus I think it is time for me to now politely 'bow' [to Allah, for we dont bow to humans ] out; but before I go I'd say this to my fellow non-Muslims:

To be a Pluralist [i.e, to firmly beleive that mankind can live together in peace and harmony despite us having different faiths and beliefs, even though we may beleive in thnigs like "if you dont beleive Jesus is Lord, your gonig to hell", "If you reject Islam and thereafter die as a non-Muslim, your going to hell"] is an absolute must if we are to live in peace and harmony together in this multi faith, interdependent world and the intollerant attitude of "my way [of perrenialism] or the highway" should be shunned.

Those of the non-Muslims who feel resentment towards our beleifs of religious exclusivity, despite the fact that our exclusive beleifs does not effect the way we interact/socialise with non-Muslims, should take a lesson from us in how to go about maintaining a tollerant and unresentfull attitude towards Islam and Muslims:

Muslims do not feel any resentment or hate towards the billions of people? of other faiths that beleive in religious exclusivity too; e.g, we dont harbour any ill feelings or malice towards the Christians who believe that were going to hell as we dont take Jesus [pbuh] as our God.

Another essential attitude and demeanour that should be adopted, in order to remain tollerant and freindly towards people of other faiths, is that, when debating or dicussing religion with people of other faith, our 'emotions' should be put aside and we should enter debate and discourse with an intellectual frame of mind, for such topics are obviously contradictory [that is why many would tell you that a golden rule of the workplace is to 'never discuss religion or politics'] and there is no room to allow our instinctive emotions to dictate our participation in such discourses.

I have seen many Muslims and people of other faiths discuss religion, and the gist of those debates is usually, "I'm right and your wrong, and your path leads to hell and mines lead to heaven".; but these suggestions are made in an intellectual, contextual and relevant context, taking sensetivities into consideration, and at the end of the debates, there is a smile and a handshake, for both parties understand that nothing holds us back from being freindly and peacefull towards one another, despite our differences in religion.

And to anyone who may be wondering as to why I've been so vocal in this thread in asserting the views of the mainstream and consensus; it was only to aquaint people with the truth, regarding their queries, for answers that are anything but the truth, regarding this issue, will be to 'lull them into a false sense of security'...and I certainly dont want to be held guilty on the day of Judgement for that.

Peace and guidance to all

 

[bananabrain]

the intolerant attitude "my way [of perrenialism] or the highway" should be shunned.

ok, i agree - except that that's exactly what your own attitude is, except that your "way" isn't perennialism (useful word that).

Muslims do not feel any resentment or hate towards the billions of people? of other faiths that believe in religious exclusivity too; e.g, we don't harbour any ill feelings or malice towards the Christians who believe that were going to hell as we dont take Jesus [pbuh] as our God.

and the jews? our belief is that "the righteous amongst the [non-jewish] nations have a portion in the World to Come", so as far as we're concerned you actually have it much easier than us in terms of your obligations, given that you only have 7 rather than 613. this is one of the reasons we are not obliged to attempt to convert people, because although we have our own special mission, we believe everyone else also has a purpose in the Divine Plan so, unlike christian evangelists, we should not be triumphalist or supercessionist or any of these other things, so you can hardly use old chestnut #4 argument, "well, you say the same things as us anyway".

but anyway, thanks for your candour on this thread - it has been quite thought-provoking.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Muslimwoman]

Why am I thinking about the film the invasion of the body snatchers?

 

[Abdullah]

Abdullah, this is a very interesting topic, don't you think. I have done a Quran search and there are 23 verses which specifically talk about the Jews but of course there are surrounding verses that refer to them.

I found a number of verses that I feel show that Allah was talking to a certain group of Jews but I was particularly intrigued by these verses and wondered if you could comment on the verse in bold please:

002.140PICKTHAL: Or say ye that Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know best, or doth Allah? And who is more unjust than he who hideth a testimony which he hath received from Allah? Allah is not unaware of what ye do.


004.159PICKTHAL: There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -

004.160PICKTHAL: Because of the wrongdoing of the Jews We forbade them good things which were (before) made lawful unto them, and because of their much hindering from Allah's way,

004.161PICKTHAL: And of their taking usury when they were forbidden it, and of their devouring people's wealth by false pretences, We have prepared for those of them who disbelieve a painful doom.

004.162PICKTHAL: But those of them who are firm in knowledge and the believers believe in that which is revealed unto thee, and that which was revealed before thee, especially the diligent in prayer and those who pay the poor-due, the believers in Allah and the Last Day. Upon these We shall bestow immense reward.

4:159 I certainly do not think that I can dispute that faithful Jews believe in G-d, can you?

In 4:162 is the Quran itself, the unquestionable Word of G-d, not saying here that there are among the Jews those that follow the right path and will receive immense rewards from G-d? None of the translations I can find say "those who WERE firm in knowledge", they all say ARE firm in knowledge, except for Shakir who translates it as simply 'the firm in knowledge'.


BB verse 4:47 of the Quran refers to Jews that broke the Sabbath. I understand that the Sabbath is your Holy Day, so is there a recorded time in your history where certain Jews broke the Sabbath and what does it mean to break the Sabbath?

In verse 4:160 above it refers to making unlawful what was lawful. At what time in the Jewish history did this happen? Sorry, just trying to establish if it was at the giving of the Torah.

In your opinion could verse 4:161 above be referring to the money lenders that Jesus (pbuh) expelled from the temple?

Thank you for your comments gentlemen.

Salaam
MW

Salaam Mw

I'm thinking wether i've just rumbled you

how comes you write the word God as the jews do, i.e, G-d?

just joking

 

[bananabrain]

oh, ha ha ha. muslimwoman thinks your arguments are rubbish, so she must be jewish?

speaks volumes for your insecurity, don't it?

what next, are you going to tell c0de he's jewish, because he also has little time for dawah-by-numbers-for-people-who've-had-their-brains-removed?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[iBrian]

bb, there are a number of smileys in Abdullah's post - give him room for a little light-hearted banter, please.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Salaam Mw

I'm thinking wether i've just rumbled you

how comes you write the word God as the jews do, i.e, G-d?

just joking

Salam Abdullah

I giggled, well done.

To answer the question though I write it that way because I am aware Jewish people read these threads and I believe they don't write the name of G-d so I thought it would be respectful if I wrote it that way so they don't have to read it.