Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

[Snoopy]

Yes, I was thinking a little about the idea of the Boddhisattva, too.

InPeace,
InLove

In (Mahayana) Buddhism, a bodhisattva has taken a vow to liberate all sentient beings, delaying their own entry into nirvana out of compassion.
So although there is the common notion of compassion, I think I would say that reincarnation is referring to a returning, whereas the bodhisattva delays (out of compassion). Feel free to carry on "what iffing" though



s.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(^_^)====-----

Dondi, You said,

"I suppose it's possible that God in certain cases could send people who didn't have a chance at a normal life to have a second chance, like I mention before in the cases of infant or child death or severe retardation."​

--> I am glad you are willing to consider such examples. Reincarnation removes all of the unfairness of these cases.

"I would stop short in saying that this would be the modus operandi of spiritual progression for those who experience a relatively normal lifespan, however."​

--> I can see how a "normal" person would consider one life as sufficient.

"I still fail to see what benefit reincarnation would do if we don't remember our former lives if we don't remember the life lessons we would have learned from them."​

--> Unfortunately, bad memories from previous lives can interfere with what we need to do here. It is an imperfect system, but it works.

"But without knowledge of those life lessons, how do we avoid repeating the same mistakes?"​

--> We can look within, and get an inner "impression" as to whether a particular course is correct.

"If someone was an alcoholic or a sex addict, would not those traits carry over into the next life?"​

--> They do. It is the same as a pianist who is reborn, and carries with them an unexplainable piano skill. One of the biggest challenges we have is to avoid lapsing back into such negative patterns.

I am constantly reminded how this system seems to be unfair. However, in the long run, everything works out to be perfectly fair. We just have to be able to see long-term results.

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(^_^)====-----

Wil, you said,

"I also feel like I've just started preschool!"
​

--> I am reminded of a teacher who said physical life is like a field-trip. We come here to practice specific things. We then withdraw, to ponder what we have learned. Afterwards, when we have culled all we can, it is time for another "field-trip".

 

[Nick the Pilot]

-----====(^_^)====-----

Snoopy, you said,

"...reincarnation is referring to a returning, whereas the bodhisattva delays (out of compassion)."
​

--> I would draw a distinction between Enlightenment and Nirvana. I see a Bodhisattva as one who achieves Enlightenment, yet refuses Nirvana in order to stay here and help others. Reincarnation, as you have alluded to, seems to refer to people who have not yet achieved Enlightenment.

 

[seattlegal]

Yes, I was thinking a little about the idea of the Boddhisattva, too. I am sure there are less orthodox streams of Christian thought along these lines. There are others here in C-R who might expound a little on this, much more so than I....earl? Or Tariki or maybe SG or Snoopy? They might have some interesting links on the subject. (Sorry everything is coming up in italics--can't get rid of them for some reason.)

InPeace,
InLove

The best I can offer up is Ecclesiastes 3
{The last part of the chapter is really interesting...}

 

[Bruce Michael]

Hello Dondi,
>Depends on your definition of perfect. There were several figure mentioned >in the OT who were considered blameless before the Lord, yet did have >faults: Noah, for one. Also, Job.

By perfect I mean PERFECT. It is an ideal we work towards; and it really is something of a mystery why we have to incarnate in a physical world in order to develop further.

John the Revealer stated:

He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more.

Why "go out no more" if we never leave?


>Elias will return, as evident in Revelation 11, but he will return in his own >body.You will recall that he was taken up in a "chariot of fire", which I >have no doubt is a figure of speech, but he did not suffer death in the >conventional sense.

The disciples did expect the return of a messenger before Jesus himself- Elias. Jesus distinctly replied that Elias had come already in the person called John the Baptist.

Jesus did not condemn the doctrine of reincarnation; he was a seer and knew the soul who inhabited John the Baptister.

The story of the man born blind is also proof that the Jews believed in repeated lives. Why did they inquire whether or not he had sinned, since he was born blind? Jesus did not deny the doctrine, thoroughly condemning it for all time.

If I chop off a man's hand in one life and in the next life he chops off mine, is the ledger square? - ("The eye for an eye" is really a teaching of karma).

No, we have the result of two hands chopped off as a residual sin. It is this sin that Our Lord took on Himself. We are all still responsible for our personal sins.


God Bless,

Br.Bruce

 

[Bruce Michael]

Dear Thomas,
>I should probably refrain from being outspoken, but ...

I don't mind you being outspoken if you have some philosophical objections. But really, if the system is on place, what good are our philosophical and theological arguments?

>In my view, it's founded on the security idea that I don't have to make >any effort really, cos I get another go, and another, and another ...

Considering the doctrine of karma I'd think you would try and be better behaved at at least.


>I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written >history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, >it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.


Why is written evidence either way convincing? The real evidence is in personal experience.
There are plenty of statements by historical personalities stating their beliefs in reincarnation.

How do you account for those who have no possibility of hearing the Gospel in this life- those in restrictive countries, those deep in the jungle, the deaf, the mentally retarded, those that die as babies? Have they no chances at all for salvation?

Christians believe that one must accept Christ in this life to be saved, but there are many who never have the opportunity through the circumstances outlined above, and many more. Is this fair? No, of course not.

Neither is it fair the way in which humans find themselves incarnated in this life. Some are born with silver spoons in their mouths, some in abject poverty, some have all opportunity, others seem to try and fail, some have congenital weaknesses, missing limbs, stupidity; others have rude good health and are wonderfully "gifted". There is inequality everywhere in this life. Is life fair? Why some with gifts and others short-changed?

Life doesn't appear to be fair at all, but our God is a God of Justice and Love- isn't there a disparity here? No, not if we understand the truth of reincarnation. Everything falls into place when we understand rebirth and karma.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

 

[InLove]

In (Mahayana) Buddhism, a bodhisattva has taken a vow to liberate all sentient beings, delaying their own entry into nirvana out of compassion.
So although there is the common notion of compassion, I think I would say that reincarnation is referring to a returning, whereas the bodhisattva delays (out of compassion). Feel free to carry on "what iffing" though

Thanks, Snoop. Yeah, I realize the difference. But one concept does remind me of the other. As for "what iffing", it is fun, no? Kind of like a good tall stretch after a long, cramped economy car ride!

InPeace,
InLove

 

[cyberpi]

Funny, perhaps that is a question you ought to ask Jesus. Seems He did the same thing coming here.

That is where I was headed with the question.

Can you not see this as a possibility? What if there was no need to return here?

I'm picturing the Titanic sinking... have a spot on one of the life rafts... why go back?

 

[taijasi]

I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.

Umm, maybe in the BEST written source of all (according to Christians) ... the Holy Scriptures??? That includes the Hebrew variety, AND in the `New Testament' ...

Hmmm, maybe in the half dozen or so quotes that have already been provided, including several direct statements or episodes involving the original teachings of Christ Jesus Himsef ...

Ummm, gee, let's see - all that not good enough?

Of course not. It does not agree with the dogmas on record. And yes, those DID take several centuries, even millennia, to crystallize ... THAT I will grant you.

No, there is plenty of speculation that has gone on throughout the centuries - and yes, we do see personal prejudice. THAT, I think, is being made abundantly clear.

Of the Christians I know, there are PLENTY who accept the teachings on Reincarnation, often based precisely due to the many Scriptures - of ALL Faiths and Traditions (I do mean ALL), which have long taught this Holy Doctrine. And then, I also know plenty of Christians who may not embrace the teachings whole-heartedly, or who at least remain OPEN to the possibility, but who also continue to question. And that is right and good.

And then, I do know some ... who fit yet a third category. And they neither question, nor remain open - to very much, at all.

~andrew

 

[Thomas]

From the very beginning, the Christian Tradition regarded those who had died as 'asleep in Christ', an idea from Our Lord Himself:

John 11:11-14:
"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. His disciples therefore said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. But Jesus spoke of his death: and they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep. Then therefore Jesus said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

+++

Does anyone suppose that the Infinite Mercy of God is such that he would inflict this journey through the Valley of Shadows upon His creature a second time ... did the father send the Prodigal Son away with the rebuke, "go back, and learn your lesson, and keep going back, until you get it right?" No. Did the shepherd find the lost sheep and say "stay lost, until you find your way home"?

+++

Irenaeus said:
"... For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father ..."

Later commentators have pointed out that in this eschatalogical state, the disorder that so afflicts the souls and minds of men will no longer hold sway, so that no more will there be envy, jealousy, greed, spite, hate, fear or loathing ... and so to each his place in the Heavenly Kingdom, be it high or low, near or far, will be the place in which the risen delight to find themselves, and that, no matter high nor low, near nor far ... God will be right there ... right there ...

So the Christian thinks not of coming back, or trying again, or abandoning this life in pursuit of another ... but rather the Christian thinks of that eternal rest in the bosom of the Father who is All Love and All Mercy, and all in all.

Irenaeus said:
"John, therefore, did distinctly foresee the first "resurrection of the just," and the inheritance in the kingdom of the earth; and what the prophets have prophesied concerning it harmonize [with his vision]. For the Lord also taught these things, when He promised that He would have the mixed cup new with His disciples in the kingdom. The apostle, too, has confessed that the creation shall be free from the bondage of corruption, [so as to pass] into the liberty of the sons of God. And in all these things, and by them all, the same God the Father is manifested, who fashioned man, and gave promise of the inheritance of the earth to the fathers, who brought it (the creature) forth [from bondage] at the resurrection of the just, and fulfils the promises for the kingdom of His Son; subsequently bestowing in a paternal manner those things which neither the eye has seen, nor the ear has heard, nor has [thought concerning them] arisen within the heart of man, For there is the one Son, who accomplished His Father’s will; and one human race also in which the mysteries of God are wrought, "which the angels desire to look into;" and they are not able to search out the wisdom of God, by means of Which His handiwork, confirmed and incorporated with His Son, is brought to perfection; that His offspring, the First-begotten Word, should descend to the creature (facturam), that is, to what had been moulded (plasma), and that it should be contained by Him; and, on the other hand, the creature should contain the Word, and ascend to Him, passing beyond the angels, and be made after the image and likeness of God."
Adv. Haers. XXXVI

So the Christian, with faith in Christ, and faith in the Resurrection, and a faith in the Wisdom of God that transcends all mortal thought, has no need to look elsewhere for deliverance, nor need he stumble and clutch at the chimeric promise of 'another chance' or find some means of explaining away the cruelties of this world to himself ... why should he? Has he not faith in God, the God who is all Love?

The Christian is free to accept reincarnation to the same degree that he is free to doubt the Love of God — where he has faith in God who is Love, he has no need of second chances.

Thomas

 

[Dondi]

That is where I was headed with the question.

I'm picturing the Titanic sinking... have a spot on one of the life rafts... why go back?

I take it you agree with me then, eh?

 

[Dondi]

So the Christian, with faith in Christ, and faith in the Resurrection, and a faith in the Wisdom of God that transcends all mortal thought, has no need to look elsewhere for deliverance, nor need he stumble and clutch at the chimeric promise of 'another chance' or find some means of explaining away the cruelties of this world to himself ... why should he? Has he not faith in God, the God who is all Love?

The Christian is free to accept reincarnation to the same degree that he is free to doubt the Love of God — where he has faith in God who is Love, he has no need of second chances.

Here, here. What I've been trying to say.

 

[taijasi]

So the Christian, with faith in Christ, and faith in the Resurrection, and a faith in the Wisdom of God that transcends all mortal thought, has no need to look elsewhere for deliverance, nor need he stumble and clutch at the chimeric promise of 'another chance' or find some means of explaining away the cruelties of this world to himself ... why should he? Has he not faith in God, the God who is all Love?

The Christian is free to accept reincarnation to the same degree that he is free to doubt the Love of God — where he has faith in God who is Love, he has no need of second chances.

Thomas

Here is where you err, Thomas. I may have faith that the aliens will descend, and save me tomorrow from all of my past misdeeds, as also all of my own responsibilities. But that will not make it so.

The Law of Sowing and of Reaping is not wiped away by Christ, or by God, for Christ came to teach it, on behalf of the latter, and this He did. Yet you utterly ignore - and speak in direct contradiction - to this Teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ.

"They must find it difficult ...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
rather than truth as the authority."
-- Gerald Massey
​

But then, you may BELIEVE as you wish. We are certainly all free to do precisely that - Christians, Hindus, Theosophists, etc.

The God of Love will teach us our errors, the Christian as well as every other, each step along the way - once we begin to open to Him. But where He is unattended, He cannot teach. And where the people are already convinced they know better ... He isn't really even welcome at all!

To quote from the Christ's Great Brother, the previous Lord of Civilization:

Between degrading superstition and still more degrading brutal materialism the white dove of truth has hardly room where to rest her weary unwelcome foot. . . .
​

Yet here, Thomas, we see superstition enshrined ... and methinks that poor bird is just another target, fixed - if unwittingly so - in the well-adjusted sights of your gun.

You may shoot that bird down, but curiously enough, the Truth has a way of returning ... again, and again, and again.

 

[taijasi]

It would do a few folks here some good, to watch this 45 minute video on `The Boy Who Lived Before.' I watched it this morning, just a few hours ago.

YouTube - The Boy Who Lived Before

I say a few folks, because most everyone at C-R is pretty open-minded about this topic. This thread is even entitled, "are free to believe," and yet notice how VIGOROUSLY some parties must attack the very IDEA.

I think some people have forgotten that TRUTH is not defined as simply that which receives the most press & the most airtime, has the most champions in its corner, or gets the loudest cheers & shouts of approval. TRUTH can sometimes be suppressed, and its Prophets and advocates VIOLENTLY persecuted, TORTURED, BEATEN AND BRUTALIZED ... until, yes, in some places, its very Spirit is ALL BUT killed, save within the hearts (and minds) of those who are dedicated to keeping it alive.

I REMEMBER MY PREVIOUS LIVES ... and that is neither something I CHOSE, nor something I particularly WANTED to do. And yet I also learned how to integrate these memories, rather than dwell upon them, or within them, for the most part.

Past life memories exist for tens of thousands of people ... if not hundreds of thousands or even millions. CHILDREN know that we are all reborn. CHILDREN ... but many of us have forgotten that we shall not enter Heaven, unless we make ourselves - like children. Not in ignorance - but in INNOCENCE ...

All your officially sanctioned, bishop-tested, congregation-approved documents ... and even all the gold candlesticks in Rome ... cannot change God's Law.

Arguing on a forum is one thing. I say, take it up with God. Put the question to Christ Jesus, if you truly seek truth.

Those who ALREADY "KNOW" Truth ... will NEVER discover - A) Just how little Truth they actually "know," and B) How to even open the DOOR to the many, Greater Truths that are out there, just waiting to be found.

But yes, it is easier - not to ask questions, to believe the superstition and lies ... or of course, just to STICK WITH TRADITION, because of course, we don't know any different.

Well - some of us DO.

I'm spiritually sophomoric ... and I'm stickin' to it!

 

[wil]

I'm picturing the Titanic sinking... have a spot on one of the life rafts... why go back?

I'm hoping that will never be my view of this glorious creation. Did always like the saying...the titanic was made by the finest engineers and shipbuilders in the world...the ark by amateurs. I don't ascribe this planet to be the titanic, a man made boondoggle, not by any means...nor am I ready to jump in the life boat...the analogy just doesn't sit with me.

 

[cyberpi]

I take it you agree with me then, eh?

I don't think so but I'm not sure I understand your beliefs. You seemed to present the belief that the purpose of life is to learn a lesson, and upon learning the lesson on this school of Earth that there is no reason to return to school. You seemed opposed to the concept of reincarnation as if it were a free pass for the jailed inmates or bad students on Earth to avoid learning the lessons. Yet if Jesus were an example then I figured it would cause a complete rethink of those beliefs. I imagine that a student who has taken every course in college, of every discipline, graduated with every degree, memorized every religious text, and is an expert on every religion... might fail to see any reason to ever go back to college.

There is the doctrine of reincarnation, and the doctrine of resurrection. The two are incompatible, we are founded on the latter.

Founded? If I have a father... do I not still have a Father? If I have a Father... do I not still have a father? With reincarnation a person has any father on the planet... multiple fathers from multiple lives even... and yet could still have the 'Father' in heaven the whole time. Whereas with the theories of 'we' that you present someone is going to have some explaining to do if two people were to have a child with an entirely different set of genes, language, and knowledge. Or, if only a single birth is permitted then those theorists have testified that they have a father for eternity rather than a Father... genes selected for eternity by their mother and father. Whereas Jesus had a Father and... ???

In short, if you contrast resurrection against reincarnation as incompatible then I am contrasting birth (incarnation) and resurrection as incompatible. Did Jesus arrive as an already learned adult with his own distinct genes... magically appear somewhere from a golden charriot? Or is the flesh and the soul separate and so Jesus came through a birth canal like everyone else, crying and pooping like all the rest?

 

[Bruce Michael]

>John 11:11-14:
"These things he said; and after that he said to them: Lazarus our friend >sleepeth: but I go that I may awake him out of sleep. His disciples therefore >said: Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. But Jesus spoke of his death: and >they thought that he spoke of the repose of sleep. Then therefore Jesus >said to them plainly: Lazarus is dead."

Sleep is the brother of death, as the saying goes.

>Does anyone suppose that the Infinite Mercy of God is such that he would >inflict this journey through the Valley of Shadows upon His creature a >second time ... did the father send the Prodigal Son away with the >rebuke, "go back, and learn your lesson, and keep going back, until you >get it right?" No. Did the shepherd find the lost sheep and say "stay lost, >until you find your way home"?


Well Eternity is a long time (if ever it could even be conceived of). So once is not much of an experience. Surely to say that life on Earth is just a Vale of Tears, is cynical. If it was folk would be far more lemming-like than they are.


>but rather the Christian thinks of that eternal rest in the bosom of the >Father who is All Love and All Mercy, and all in all.

Eternal rest is sloth.


>So the Christian, with faith in Christ, and faith in the Resurrection, and a >faith in the Wisdom of God that transcends all mortal thought, has no need >to look elsewhere for deliverance, nor need he stumble and clutch at the >chimeric promise of 'another chance' or find some means of explaining away the cruelties of this world to himself ...

But you didn't answer the question, Thomas. What about the non-Christians and those who couldn't communicate with Christianity for one reason or another?


>The Christian is free to accept reincarnation to the same degree that he is >free to doubt the Love of God — where he has faith in God who is Love, he >has no need of second chances.

That is a hard hearted dogmatic statement.

"Christ is not the teacher, as one is wont to say, Christ is not the
inaugurator, He is the content of Christianity."
- Schelling.

‘I have still much to say to you — but prepare yourselves in order that you may be able to bear it and understand it.’

-Christ
Dr. Steiner said it best when he said:

"By realizing that Christianity will bring forth from its depths an increasing flow of new and more living creations, we enhance its greatness. Those who are always saying: ‘That is not in the Bible, that is not true Christianity and those who maintain that it is, are heretics’, must be reminded that Christ also said: ‘I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now’. He did not say this in order to indicate that He wished to withhold anything from men, but that from epoch to epoch He would bring them new revelations. And this He will do through those who are willing to understand Him. Those who deny that there can be new revelations do not understand the Bible, neither do they understand Christianity. For they have no ears for what is implied in the admonition given by Christ: ‘I have still much to say to you — but prepare yourselves in order that you may be able to bear it and understand it.’

"The true Christians of the future will be those who are willing to hear what the Christians who were contemporaries of Christ were not yet able to bear. Those who allow Christ's Grace to flow into their hearts in ever increasing abundance — they will be the true Christians. The ‘hard of heart’ will resist this Grace, saying: Go back to the Bible, to the literal text of the Bible, for that alone is true. This is a disavowal of the words which in Christianity itself kindle light, words which we will take into our hearts: ‘I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.’ Good it will be for men when they can bear more and more in this sense: for thereby they prepare themselves for the ascent into the spiritual heights. And to these spiritual heights Christianity leads the way."
-Conceptions of Original Sin & Grace

Thanks Be to God, our Heavenly Father, for His Grace, that there is much to learn. May we be open to ever new insights and inspirations!

In the Lord,
Br.Bruce

 

[Bruce Michael]

And another thing:
It is obvious that you cannot love or hate a non-existing thing, but in the story of Jacob and Esau (Romans 9:10-13) the Lord loved the one and hated the other before their birth.

St. Paul gives us the teaching of reincarnation where he refers to the case of Jacob and Esau. And Paul spoke of the same event that the older prophet Malachi spoke of. Malachi 1:2-3

-Br.Bruce

 

[wil]

This thread is even entitled, "are free to believe," and yet notice how VIGOROUSLY some parties must attack the very IDEA.

Yes the title "Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation" does also by proxy imply Christians are Free to REJECT Reincarnation...