Christians are Free to Accept Reincarnation

It seems as a Christian who strictly follows scripture and canonized understanding you would have a difficulty seeing where it could possibly fit in? But as a more unorthodox Christian who doesn't neccessarily take the previous church authorities as an authority you could accept it within your own personal philosophy?

Have there really been no persons of "good standing" in Christianity who may have believed in Reincarnation in the distant past?

It seems to me that Jesus could have categorically denied or accepted the theory in this instance below, but did neither (although understandably it is also a special case). So at least his disciples must have been curious about the idea?

John 9,2

1 As he passed by he saw a man blind from birth.
2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3 Jesus answered, "Neither he nor his parents sinned; it is so that the works of God might be made visible through him.
4 We have to do the works of the one who sent me while it is day. Night is coming when no one can work.
5 While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Best wishes,

... Neemai :)

I have not read this whole thread but I just wanted to add the idea that maybe Jesus was answering the question more directly. You see, in Buddhism, the idea that the reason for being born in improvished place or, being born with some kind of misfortune is a result of past karma in a past life is not always accepted as an explanation.

I mean, sure, there is some truth to that, but not in every single case. The more important thing is once again, not discerning if the reason for the misfortune was of past misconduct, but rather, what is in appropriate response to the current situation? The karma in Buddhism at times is more emphasized on the karma within a person that plays a role with how a person my initially respond to a situation.
 
I should probably refrain from being outspoken, but ...

As Neemai points out, everyone in the West seems intent on introducing a doctrine which the East regards as unfortunate in the first place!

The West's idea of reincarnation has turned a negative into a positive. Can someone explain where and how that came about?

In my view, it's founded on the security idea that I don't have to make any effort really, cos I get another go, and another, and another ... using Buddhism to cop out of the tough bits of Christianity, Christianity to cop out of the tough bits of Buddhism ...

I'll ask again, where, in 2,000 years of a pretty prolific written history, is the evidence for the belief in reincarnation ... without it, it's just speculation and opinion based on personal prejudice.


Thomas

I have not read this whole thread but,

Is not so that, in some aspect of Judaism there does exist this idea of transmigration of souls. Gilgul and ibur. So, at the least, the idea has existed back then in that area. Somebody back then accepted this idea of cosmology. Weather if Christians did or not well, very tough argument. Show me the money.

I would like to think so or wish that is the case but, I am biased since this doctrine of rebirth agrees more with my reasoning of the nature of all things.

But, spirituality should not be political. I mean, there is no advantage thinking one life or many, all that matters is what works for you.

The kind of thinking you expressed is something I have heard before from other Christians. I think considering you only live on time and Jesus takes care of you naturally takes away any effort. All ya have to do is believe.

You can live over and over again but you will continue to be subject to rebirth. Weather that is a problem is up to you. For some it is, some want salvation and seek it.

As for to cop out on each other;

What that sounds like to me is the jumping back and forth from belief to path.

Belief:

In belief I find security. I can relax and let things go. However, as we human beings continue to encounter the harsh sides of life, the hardships, the tribulations, the emptiness, the sadness, the depression, the unfulfillment, the loss of security, the unsatisfactoriness in life, we become motivated to seek wisdom and practice that wisdom so that we can better understand the nature of all things, find peace and liberation, and die from an old way of being and resurrect into a new way of being.

Wisdom:

As we practice wisdom it is useful and functional. Liberating. It works. We find the relief and medicine we were searching for. We are enriched and empowered by it. Our laments and sorrows cease from our spiritual maturity and growth. However, we realize the road is long and hard, we will not make salvation in on life time. We find the spiritual path increasingly creepy because it asks us to let go of things we do not want to lose as a result, we get afraid on run back to our beliefs for security.

conclusion:

Beliefs our good for security and consolation but, they are insufficient in helping a person handle tough situations in life. The Wisdoms solves that problem but opens the reality of the difficulty of spiritual life. This means that a person should take in as much wisdom as life demands them to, and not rush to attain any more than that.

So, it really does take many lives to attain salvation.

The idea that Jesus is going to do it for you only makes the who tradition about saving your rear end from hell after death which is all fear in the heart. You make you whole life centered around proving to yourself that you are saved.

Get saved. I wanna be saved. I want to assure that I am saved. I want God to tell me I am saved.

I prefer Karma, from seeing the causes and effect in me, I can know where I am going scientifically.
 
If reincarnation is true, what is the purpose of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection if we are going to "reboot" anyway?

Perhaps Jesus' passing serves no purpose at all. The idea of Jesus dying for our sins is just paganism. Both the Jews and Muslims do not need Jesus for their grace from God at all and other people argue that the idea of that is simply paganism.

The Gospel of Thomas consists of the sayings of Jesus and nothing else. Perhaps Jesus Taught us wisdom.

Marcus Borg, a Christian, advocates the idea that Christianity is spiritual journey, a path, a and a way, not a belief. Marcus Borg even said that early Christianity was called, "Followers of the Way". This would further suggest that Jesus taught a spiritual path. So please practice.

So, when you read the Bible, look for the wisdom of Jesus and not mythology of Jesus which was created by people with political agendas at the council of Nicea.

I mean, in the current canonized Bible Jesus once said something like, "You Pharisees appear righteous upon men but, on the inside you are lawless, clean the cup on inside so the outside is clean."

This to me suggest that, maybe what Essau was saying that, being righteous actually does not come from actions of righteousness. It does not come from the doing the right thing and not performing the wrong thing. It is not from wearing the right cloths, believing the right thing, going to the local church or synagouge, and proclaiming this or that.

It actually comes from transforming from inside. When you have transformed your character within in yourself after having examined your Karma, the seeds planted in you, removing the unwanted seeds and watering and planting the good seeds, the fruit that one bears from such labor is great.

The faith of a mustard seed....

You reap what you sow....

You sow good you will reap good. You sow evil, you will reap evil.

So, plant the mustard seed in the good soil.

Those who exalt themselves shall be emptied, those empty themselves shall be exalted.

"The first shall be last and the last shall be first."

Being born again

Liberation through enlightenment.

Path Vs. Belief.

Something you can experience Vs. something you can not experience.

The truth.

Dhamma

The kingdom of heaven within you

Nibbanna within you

Buddha nature

being Christ like.
 
Hi Andrew —

Might I suggest that your opinions of Christianity might be better received, by Christians at least, if you present them as views according to your own dogmas, rather than as inarguable facts? As I understand it, Theosophists are free to accept or reject their doctrines according to choice?

As Theosophists are free to believe in reincarnation, and as I understand your doctrine, they are also free to refute it. Christian doctrine, founded on our Scriptures, not yours, is more specific on that point:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment" Hebrews 9:37

Some of just don't accept the indoctrination - which INSISTS that we not question matters as difficult or complicated as Rebirth - and we prefer to study what hundreds, and thousands, of wise authors have had to say on this matter, throughout the ages: especially when so many of these have been Christian Mystics and Saints, revered and respected followers of Christ of every branch and type of the Christian tradition, even to the point of sticking to their guns once the Church has excommunicated them ...
As ever, if you can name a Christian mystic or saint who preaches reincarnation, then do so ... in the absence of such, I can only treat this as uninformed speculation on your part.

Likewise those excommunicated ...

And as you go on, you express a profound ignorance of the doctrine you so vilify:

So I just wonder, do those who fight so hard to insist that Christianity has no room for the Law of Cause and Effect, of Sowing and of Reaping ... do they perhaps struggle so hard with this most basic and Universal Law & Divine instruction - because they themselves can't bear to ponder the idea that they, too, must return to incarnation, or is it just the same-old, same-old battle for ideas, in which they wish to see theirs dominate, irrespective of their veracity!

Another false argument:
"Be not deceived: God is not mocked. For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit of the spirit shall reap life everlasting."
Galatians 6:7-8

Our Scriptures use the analogy of reaping and sowing throughout, so you are so far off the mark there, it's laughable.

I would suggest, if pushed, that this text refers to reincarnation, 'reaping corruption' (ie a return to the same state) whereas Christianity refers to resurrection 'life everlasting' (an incorruptible state).

This is not doctrine but lo! As a Catholic, I am free to interpret it according to the Pauline kerygma if I so choose.

On this one text I could argue at length that Theosophy, tied to a doctrine of reincarnation, misses the point of Christianity altogether, but insists that the only rigfht interpretation is its own ... which is, in my view, a long way off the mark, a right and freedom it rebukes in anyone else.

As the rest of your post comprises your usual anti-Christian polemic, I shall ignore it.

Thomas
 
Hi Manji 2012

Is not so that, in some aspect of Judaism there does exist this idea of transmigration of souls. Gilgul and ibur. So, at the least, the idea has existed back then in that area. Somebody back then accepted this idea of cosmology. Weather if Christians did or not well, very tough argument. Show me the money.
We can trace the idea of transmigration through later Jewish thinking, influenced by Greek philosophy.

We can then later still trace the rejection of various forms — transmigration among them, in Scripture (eg Hebrews) and Christian philosophers, (eg Origen).

I would like to think so or wish that is the case but, I am biased since this doctrine of rebirth agrees more with my reasoning of the nature of all things.
That is your freedom to do. Christians follow a different line of reasoning.

The kind of thinking you expressed is something I have heard before from other Christians. I think considering you only live on time and Jesus takes care of you naturally takes away any effort. All ya have to do is believe.
This is an often-voiced but erroneous assumption. It is not enough just 'to believe' — it's akin to assuming that all that's required of a Buddhist is to sit still and not think ...

It is required in Christianity (and Buddhism) that one lives and therefore acts according to what one believes.

What is not required is the huge amounts of ancilliary cosmological data beloved of the Hermeticist, for example. That is certainly a vocation, but not a requirement. Christianity is not a religion that depends on amassing a vast array of knowledge, nor is the mark of a Christian the amount of knowledge one can display.

Simplicity is the mark of the Christian.

It is a religion based on love, its origin, and its end.


Beliefs our good for security and consolation but, they are insufficient in helping a person handle tough situations in life. The Wisdoms solves that problem but opens the reality of the difficulty of spiritual life. This means that a person should take in as much wisdom as life demands them to, and not rush to attain any more than that.
And yet we often praise the 'simple wisdom' of the innocent, do we not?

I tend to view it that we act according to who we are, and who we are is shaped by what we believe (not necessarily what we know), and I would argue that it is this that enables one to handle the tough situations ... the lack of belief and principle debilitates, leaving one at the whim of currents, novelties, etc.

Second to that is willpower and courage. Many people are faced with difficult situations and know the right thing to do, but choose an easier path, and no amount of wisdom can prevent a failure of will.

The idea that Jesus is going to do it for you only makes the who tradition about saving your rear end from hell after death which is all fear in the heart. You make you whole life centered around proving to yourself that you are saved.
But that is not what Christianity is.

I prefer Karma, from seeing the causes and effect in me, I can know where I am going scientifically.
I might argue that in these matters 'science' does not hold all the answers — it is theory, and acceptable theory, but I do wonder how karma as 'cause and effect' stands in relation to Quantum Mechanics ... leaving aside the metacosmic.

Thomas
 
AndrewX,
It is fundamental to Christianity that God has a will. That doesn't mean gravity, or electromagnetism, or strong or weak nuclear forces... or any specific pattern thereof.

For example, the stone itself is not God. A stone placed may have been placed by the will of God.

A computer and the programs it runs is not a will. It is a will that built the computer, wrote the programs, and set them in motion.

The flesh itself is like a computer running a program. The flesh, at a chemical or cellular level, is a machine. Nothing more.

So, whether or not I get my old computer back is to me a misguided discussion. At what age do I wish to have my computer back? Before the keys fell off it, or after? Before I accidently deleted the memories that I needed one day, or after? This universe is a book. A day is like a page. The pages of history appear to have been lost, but they haven't. All pages still exist. I value the entire book, not just the page on which I wrote. If I wish to enter in and write on an unwritten page, of what use is it to duplicate the exact state of a prior page? A preceding page will help write today's page, but where is the will that wrote that?

It is fundamental to the Abrahamic religions that God has written some portion of the pages in history. Some adherants go further to say God wrote their book. Is God the page of history, or the did God write a page of history? Can the forces of gravity and electromagnetism write a page of history on their own?

So it seems to me that I'd wish to be careful challenging the beliefs of adherants to a religion if I didn't believe in the foundation of their religion... that God exists, that God has a will, and that God has written on some pages of history. I tell you honestly that God has written portions of my life, and I suspect has written portions of everyone elses. Furthermore it is an interaction, in which I actually pray and communicate with him... as do the adherants of the Abrahamic religions. Does a Theosophist bother praying? Do they pray to the stone? An EM field? A page of history? Or the author of the Karma?
 
AndrewX:
Another way of getting at it: Who or what chooses where a person is reincarnated to? The complex mechanical universe? A complex mechanical Karma? A roll of the dice? God?
 
AndrewX:
Another way of getting at it: Who or what chooses where a person is reincarnated to? The complex mechanical universe? A complex mechanical Karma? A roll of the dice? God?
Well, if you look at the quotation from the teachings in the Ancient Wisdom, via Alice Bailey, the answer would be the Lipika Lords.

The first line of the definition from de Purucker's Online Encyclopedic Theosophical Glossary, referencing teachings from HPB (same Master, writing via an earlier student), tells us this:
Lipika (Sanskrit) [from the verbal root lip to write] A scribe; divine beings connected with karma, recorders who impress on the astral light a record of every act and thought, great or small, in the phenomenal universe.​

I will go ahead and quote the remainder of that paragraph in the glossary, including a reference to The Secret Doctrine, as it provides an in-depth answer to your question. Note that the word `manvantara' refers to a cycle of planetary or solar evolution lasting for literally billions (or trillions) of years, while `pralaya' is the corresponding NIGHT, or period of inactivity which follows each manvantaric DAY.
The lipika are active cosmic karmic intelligences, the highest class of architects, which lay down from manvantara to manvantara the tracks of karmic evolution to be followed by all evolving entities within the manvantara about to begin; and these tracks are rigidly begun, and their direction controlled, by the endpoint of the paths of karmic achievement in the preceding manvantara. They "project into objectivity from the passive Universal Mind the ideal plan of the universe, upon which the 'Builders' reconstruct the Kosmos after every Pralaya, . . . it is they who are the direct amanuenses of the Eternal Ideation -- or, as called by Plato, the 'Divine Thought' " (SD 1:104). The lipika thus are in every sense the agents of karmic destiny, for they are both the vehicles of divine ideation in their work, and yet the expressions of karmic law arising in the past and projected on the background of the future. Their intelligence and vitality permeate their particular universe and all the beings in it, so that the lipikas are stamped with whatever takes place.
If you breathe, if you speak, if you think ... and as you do each of these things ... you are literally IMPRESSING upon the substance of the Cosmos the RECORD of what you DO. Because of this, `karma' is sometimes translated simply as `ACTION.'


Skipping a portion of de Purucker's definition, here is the rest of what he has to say in the Theosophical Glossary:
Because of their lofty position, they are identified with the universal intelligence, as its immediate vehicles or channels. Thus they are not only the channels but the imbodiments of karma, and therefore not only the interpreters or agents of karma, but the recorders or scribes upwards into cosmic ideation of whatever takes place on lower planes. Their function is thus dual: imbodiments, channels, or interpreters of karma to be worked out in the universe in which the lipikas function, and thus agents of cosmic ideation; and second, as the scribes or recorders of the innumerably multitudinous karmic records of the beings below themselves.

The lipikas correspond to the Egyptian forty Assessors of Amenti, to the four Recording Angels of the Qabbalah, the Hindu four Maharajas and chitra-gupta, the Christian seven Angels of the Presence, and to the Book of Life of Revelations. They are directly connected with karma, with the Day of Judgment, or the Day-Be-With-Us, when everything becomes one, all individualities becoming one, yet each knowing itself.

Karma, though a LAW, is not blind. In one sense, we might think of Karma as working out the same for all beings, and ultimately, this is true. But it is NOT purely mechanical, if you consider this rather detailed definition and description of the Lipika ... the AGENTS of Karma - Who record and adjust, or `balance the scales,' as this Law applies to Humanity (and to all other beings in the Solar System, or beyond).

Any real understanding of Karma, and the above mentioned AGENTS of Karma, operating anywhere from the Sirian System (the Cosmic Christ), right on down to our Earthly Humanity ... any such understanding will show beyond question that our Cosmos is more than Fair and Just, it is everything we know of as PERFECT, ORDERLY and BALANCED. {If we substitute the word `God' for `Cosmos,' the resulting understanding will not likely be the same. Many people do not believe that our Cosmos - and world - is ultimately governed by these various LAWS, which the Esotericist accepts ... and they will only accept that `God is thus-and-such' - which suggests an IMPERFECT Creation. I think we must be careful here, and tentatively entertain the idea of an Imperfect Cosmos, tending toward Perfection ... even while under the Aegis and Direction, or Guidance, on ALL levels - of a `Perfect Deity.'}

Even as the Beings currently undergoing material and spiritual evolution WITHIN the billions of Solar Systems in our Galaxy, all can be said to be traveling a spiral path of the attainment of relative degrees of PERFECTION ... we must also try to consider that the PLAN of evolution allows for and INTENDS that eventually, ALL of these Beings will reach the same, unimaginable Goal of Final Union or AT-ONE-MENT with the Supreme.

It is a challenging step, I realize, to ask ourself, WHAT IF God is not only the Wonderful, Glorious, Beautiful and Magnificent BEING Whom and Which has been portrayed by ALL the world's religions down throughout the ages ... WHAT IF God is actually all of that sans the anthropomorphisms and HUMAN aspects, which we undeniably, even if unintentionally, attribute to ...

(... and yet, notice the very fact that many of us would finish that sentence with a personal pronoun, GENDERED and as matter-of-fact as if we were referring to our high school gym coach! :p)

Even worse, atheism and materialism, are so unfortunate because then we really do start looking around to try and explain the workings of the whole Universe as if it really was nothing more than a giant clock. We might as well forget about God altogether, if we look at things Deistically, bc God might as well not be there at all! And in such a worldview, consciousness itself (the `I,' the mystical `We,' or even such notions as The ONE) becomes reduced to nothing more than biochemical or electrical brain states ... and utterly deterministic.

But even once God has been revealed to us, in some slight measure, as a reality ... we still have the tendency, as with everything else in life - if we are not careful - to SETTLE for the first explanation, or the first experience, that comes our way! We do not remember, as the expression goes in Sanskrit, to say `Neti, Neti' ... Not this, not this. If we could ponder for a moment, that God is ALL of what we have (just) experienced - yet also INFINITELY more (yeah, literally) - then we might refrain from the temptation and the tendency to go around telling others HOW they should conceive of the Divine, let alone WHOM and what they should understand or regard AS DEITY.

And this is why it just drives me nuts sometimes, or really even POs me, if you'll pardon the expression, to find people saying things like, "Jesus is God, and He's the ONLY way to Godhead." All that reveals, is that they really haven't been paying attention (parrotting off what's written somewhere is NOT original thinking, and it doesn't take much skill, either) ... and it also shows that, as mentioned above, they've SETTLED for the first `God experience' which they've had. And even then, we've got to consider that one person may actually experience something of Christ's Love and even direct Presence, while there are as many degress, or Expresssions, of this Divine Quality (and Aspect of Godhead) as there are colors in the spectrum - both visible and otherwise.

This wanders a bit away from a direct treatment of KARMA, let alone Reincarnation, but again - to hear folks insist that "Christians cannot, or must not believe in such a thing," only convinces me of one of two things. Either this inflexibility just shows that that person is utterly ignorant, however much they might wish (and pretend) that it be otherwise, of Christ's own Teachings on this matter, as given both in the Apostles' direct presence (both secretly and openly) and to the masses ... OR, such a person is so blinded by the rigidity and the dead-letter aspect of Christianity - or really churchianity - that they would much rather dedicate themselves to weeding out Truth Itself in order to toe the party line, and preserve the existing structure of the catechism - lacking as it currently is in clarity on this particular matter of belief/doctrine.

We can argue, and rightly so, that the original teachings on Reincarnation are no longer present ... and make the point that Christians today do not often accept this doctrine. But why, I ask, will any of this matter, as we increasingly come to understand the Universe even from a largely SCIENTIFIC point of view, as being - IN FACT - Governed (Intelligently, Lovingly, Beautifully and Wonderfully) by this very LAW of Being?

Why, I ask, will it be useful as anything more than a history lesson, to show that - yes indeed, for quite a number of reasons, the Law of Rebirth has been REMOVED (and `reduced' - in terms of frequency & clarity of appearance) .. from the Christian teachings, and therefore from the minds and hearts of Christians worldwide.

I think we have plenty to learn by studying the psychology of it all, and by asking ourselves, "If this is so, then what does that say about other doctrines which we have been forced to accept ... or which we are told SHOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED ... or which we have come to accept without a moment's pause for consideration." Yes, Sunday School classes DO provide folks with an opportunity to confront some of these issues, and even for all the fuss that Dan Brown's DaVinci Code made, it was a wonderful shake-up in the sense that it got folks wanting to learn more about their chosen Faith ... and about Church history.

Well, we should never stop asking questions, and we should always try to find ways to ask them from new perspectives, and in light of NEW understandings and knowledge which we've come to. Sometimes this can be difficult, and we become stuck in a rut, as it were, and then we will eventually find, sooner or later, that what we've been taught (and come to accept) may not be quite how things actually are.

We must have a foundation of some sort, a faith - in terms of an accepted system of ideas regarding spiritual matters - yet our quest, and our journey, should not be focused on what other people tend to believe, or what most people believe (even as other Christians, or other Buddhists, etc.). It should be about what makes the most sense for US. And that may actually be - a mixture of 95% Christianity, and 5% Buddhism, or it may be vice versa ... or yet 50/50 ... and while there WILL be some difficulties we must face, in reconciling the differences between these two systems - I think we must be OPEN to the possibilities.

A dog is not a cat, and a cat is not a tree. But the person who insists that Christianity is not Buddhism, and that one of these has room in it for reincarnation, while the other does not ... such a person has a very clear AGENDA in such insistence. We should be asking ourself, "Oh, and WHY NOT? Why can't these two Great Religions co-exist - even side by side, with a mutual exchange of ideas, and a willingness to see connections where HITHERTO WE HAVE NOT?"

Only an unwillingness to learn more about ourselves, about each other, about our God, and about the Universe ... will stand in our way. I, for one, will not let any other person IMPOSE upon me such restrictions. I will think for myself, and look for connections, rather than divisions. My definition of `Truth' is not, "that which has been canonized and stamped with a seal of approval by certain EXTERNAL authorities." And so I DO continue to ask questions, even about the most basic matters - INCLUDING Karma, Reincarnation, Life After Death, and so on.

But I also accept what my experience, and experiences, have taught and shown me. I feel it is far more important, to seek to EMBODY what I have learned ... and fortunately, I feel that this is 100% good, even if there have been (and are) some hard lessons along the way, and even as I balk a bit in accepting that I am 100% responsible for my own actions (and thoughts, beliefs, speech, future, etc.).

Either you step up to the plate, or you sit on the bench, but either way, you're still in this game ... which is not a rat race, but more like a schoolroom than a ballgame, I suppose. I have no authority to teach (when it comes to ultimate spiritual answers), but I do have the Responsiblity to try and embody all that I have learned, insomuch as I believe that to be an accurate picture of God's Plan for us all. I must always be ready to accept how little I've understood, and see a slightly bigger picture ... not bigger in terms of time & space, but larger in the sense of more inclusive.

If your Plan doesn't have room for everyone in it, I would humbly suggest you need to broaden your horizons. As one Wise Sage said a few years ago, "If your plate gets full ... get a bigger plate!" :)

Namaskara
 
When I set out to seek the "Truth" some 40 years ago, which included a study of various religions, occult, theosophy and so forth, the biggest hurdle for me was reincarnation. This was THE question which had to be answered. Eventually I decided reincarnation was the most reasonable and sensible theory regarding life after death, which put my questioning mind at rest.

Although I have no fixed views on most spiritual matters, including reincarnation, I still hold it to be the most sensible and reasonable notion. I have returned here to this website after escaping from a fundamentalist dominated Christian website. I have mentioned reincarnation there, with the few verses in the Bible that seem to support this notion, without much comment.

From the fundamentalist Bible-is-the-absolute-truth mentality, reincarnation is totally impossible.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is NO room at all here for any possibility of a "second chance." All men (people) have sinned and Christ atoned fully for the sins of all who accept him as saviour. There is one heaven and one hell. There is only one span of existence of the planet as we know it. Either you accept that Christ paid off fully your bad karma, in which case you will spend eternity in heaven with him, or you do not accept this "gift" of the vicarious atonement and will suffer in eternal hellfire.

This is an abridged version of the Christian fundamentalist viewpoint -- the part that most directly addresses the discussion topic.

I do not see that it is possible to believe both in the doctrine that is set out repeatedly in the Bible, that Jesus came to earth for the primary purpose of paying for the sins of those who accept his as saviour, and also in reincarnation.

I will shut up for now, having finally found my way back to a sane forum, and read the other posts.
 
When I set out to seek the "Truth" some 40 years ago, which included a study of various religions, occult, theosophy and so forth, the biggest hurdle for me was reincarnation. This was THE question which had to be answered. Eventually I decided reincarnation was the most reasonable and sensible theory regarding life after death, which put my questioning mind at rest.

Welcome to the forums Intrepid, :)

I went on a similar mission some years ago (with an open mind) and ended up coming to the same conclusion! Gud on ya' for escaping the other forum! Will look forward to your future input in CR.

Best wishes,


... Neemai :D
 
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There is NO room at all here for any possibility of a "second chance." All men (people) have sinned and Christ atoned fully for the sins of all who accept him as saviour.

John 3:16!!!! :)D) Anyway... This says they won't perish but have everlasting life? Would you say... If I in a definition used the saying "everlasting life" to describe reincarnation... I'd be wrong ;\ ?
 
John 3:16!!!! :)D) Anyway... This says they won't perish but have everlasting life? Would you say... If I in a definition used the saying "everlasting life" to describe reincarnation... I'd be wrong ;\ ?

Sounds OK to me, but it only takes into account the good guys who are saved and go to heaven.

From the point of view of fundamentalist Christians, the vast majority of the human race are destined to end up in eternal hellfire.

Hence the fundamentalist viewpoint is quite clearly incompatible with the notion of reincarnation.

And even moderate Christians (a majority of Christians worldwide) still believe that a large proportion of people will go to eternal hell. By far the largest denomination of Christianity, Roman Catholicism, also seems to suggest that MOST people will go to hell.

Hence I deduce that the concept of reincarnation is totally incompatible with any version of Christianity that I know of.


[While I have your attention as I have just returned to this website, I will explain the significance of my avatar. Gardening has been my trade for the greater portion of my working life, and at another website I use the alias "jardinier."]
 
Gardening is good. I love growing plants, all sorts and kinds :D My back Garden I have made my fences walls of roses.... Aaah the smell so nice... So refreshing...

Anyway, you say any type of christianity that -you- know of, that doesn't mean there are aren't any other types out there, could even be a type of christian movement that believes you come back as a tv extra on the childrens show "The Tellytubbys" You know ;\ One thing I have began to see is that the term christian is very much like the term pagan... It doesn't stand for just one thing.... It is a big, big world of many groups that differ so much on quite a bit... But have just a few main items in common that keep them in the same group title... :\

Another example if I right now choose to accept and believe in christ.... But, keep doing everything else in my life how I already do... I am a christian... Sure I don't go to some dull church Sunday morning, nor read the good book.... I don't even pray... But I choose to accept and believe there is a fellow called christ and he will save me.... I am now a christian. :D
 
Hi, intrepidlover, and welcome back to the Forum.

You are correct in your interpretation of reincarnation and Christianity. I like reincarnation because it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense to me. I can see no flaw in the concept whatsoever. The simple act of believing in reincarnation caused me to change my entire view of reality, and the way I conduct my life.

How has reincarnation changed the way you live your life?
 
Gardening is good. I love growing plants, all sorts and kinds :D My back Garden I have made my fences walls of roses.... Aaah the smell so nice... So refreshing...

There is a Chinese saying, I am led to believe, which goes as follows: If you want to be happy for a day, get drunk. If you want to be happy for a week, kill a pig (I presume that means eat as much as you can). If you want to be happy for a month, get married. But if you want to be happy for ever and ever, build a garden.

Anyway, you say any type of christianity that -you- know of, that doesn't mean there are aren't any other types out there, could even be a type of christian movement that believes you come back as a tv extra on the childrens show "The Tellytubbys" You know ;\ One thing I have began to see is that the term christian is very much like the term pagan... It doesn't stand for just one thing.... It is a big, big world of many groups that differ so much on quite a bit... But have just a few main items in common that keep them in the same group title... :\

Sorry I wasn't thinking as I have been battling fundamentalist Christians for a few months. Yes there is the Liberal Catholic Church which teaches reincarnation.

Also there was a very well known pastor in Sydney, Australia, the Rev Ted Noffs of The Wayside Chapel, Kings Cross (who passed away some time ago) who preached the concept of reincarnation from the pulpit. At least two other pastors that I know of who were at some time associated with The Wayside Chapel also believed in and taught reincarnation -- not as a dogma but as a possibility worth considering.

Another example if I right now choose to accept and believe in christ.... But, keep doing everything else in my life how I already do... I am a christian... Sure I don't go to some dull church Sunday morning, nor read the good book.... I don't even pray... But I choose to accept and believe there is a fellow called christ and he will save me.... I am now a christian. :D

This on its own would not make you a Christian. It is more than just a decision. You would have to study the Bible -- primarily the New Testament -- to learn what Christ expects of you as a follower of Him. You would have to know and understand the ethical teachings of Jesus and attempt to apply them in your life. You would also find (by reading the New Testament) that you would be required to pray and to associate with other Christians. As Christianity is very much an evangelical religion, you would also be expected to let other people know of the "Good News."
 
There is a Chinese saying, I am led to believe, which goes as follows: If you want to be happy for a day, get drunk. If you want to be happy for a week, kill a pig (I presume that means eat as much as you can). If you want to be happy for a month, get married. But if you want to be happy for ever and ever, build a garden."

Yeah, you pretty much got that right, and yeah good quote :D


Sorry I wasn't thinking as I have been battling fundamentalist Christians for a few months. Yes there is the Liberal Catholic Church which teaches reincarnation.

Aaah long few months then...... Battling? Fierce...

Also there was a very well known pastor in Sydney, Australia, the Rev Ted Noffs of The Wayside Chapel, Kings Cross (who passed away some time ago) who preached the concept of reincarnation from the pulpit. At least two other pastors that I know of who were at some time associated with The Wayside Chapel also believed in and taught reincarnation -- not as a dogma but as a possibility worth considering.

Alien to me, but it goes to show there are christians out there that believe this.

This on its own would not make you a Christian. It is more than just a decision. You would have to study the Bible -- primarily the New Testament -- to learn what Christ expects of you as a follower of Him. You would have to know and understand the ethical teachings of Jesus and attempt to apply them in your life. You would also find (by reading the New Testament) that you would be required to pray and to associate with other Christians. As Christianity is very much an evangelical religion, you would also be expected to let other people know of the "Good News."

christ-ian.... Is a person that has faith in christ.... It would be a bible-tian if the bible were more important than christ ;\ just my opinion is all lol.... The word christian, doesn't strike me as "You have to be around other christians...you have to pray, you have to do everything that is stereotypical.." To me it just about -christ- that is all that matters...
 
Hi, intrepidlover, and welcome back to the Forum.

You are correct in your interpretation of reincarnation and Christianity. I like reincarnation because it makes absolute, perfect, logical sense to me. I can see no flaw in the concept whatsoever. The simple act of believing in reincarnation caused me to change my entire view of reality, and the way I conduct my life.

How has reincarnation changed the way you live your life?

In parallel with reincarnation there is the law of karma. Neither makes much sense without the other. So while I put the theory of reincarnation aside as no longer a question to concern me, I became acutely aware that "what was done to me" I had probably "done to someone else" either in this life or a previous one.

So I became very cautious about committing any action which might come back at me some day as bad karma. For many years, in order to avoid the possibility of creating bad karma, in any conflict I would give the other person the benefit of the doubt, thus letting people heap sh*t on me for many years.

And then I had a "revelation." Please note the wording of the second of the two great commandments given by Jesus: Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Do you get my drift? Love my neighbour as (much as) myself, not MORE than myself.

And so now I live by these two maxims (as well as others of course)

1. Nobody is perfect, least of all myself.

2. God help anyone who puts sh*t on Julian (that's me)


But back to reincarnation. For many years I suffered depression and at times felt suicidal. I had learnt from Theosophy that people who commit suicide can look down on the material plane from the astral, and regret what they have left behind, but are unable to return.

Whether or not this is true I wouldn't know, but it provided me with a good reason NOT to kill myself.
 
christ-ian.... Is a person that has faith in christ.... It would be a bible-tian if the bible were more important than christ ;\ just my opinion is all lol.... The word christian, doesn't strike me as "You have to be around other christians...you have to pray, you have to do everything that is stereotypical.." To me it just about -christ- that is all that matters...

You can't be a "Christ-ian" without knowing what Christ taught and what He expects of you. You will find this in the Bible, specifically the four gospels. However the teachings of Jesus are elaborated on by Paul and other apostles in the Acts and Epistles.

Do you think you could be a Buddhist (for example) without knowing what the Buddha taught? Of course you couldn't because Buddhism requires you to take control of your life and live in a certain way.

Could you be a Muslim without reading the Koran?

I think perhaps Calathumpian would be a more suitable religion for you. :rolleyes:
 
intrepidlover, You said,
"...there is the Liberal Catholic Church which teaches reincarnation."

--> As a matter of fact, I have a friend who is a priest in the Liberal Catholic Church.
"Neither makes much sense without the other."

--> Correct!
"...I became acutely aware that "what was done to me" I had probably "done to someone else" either in this life or a previous one."

--> Just remember that some of us take on more bad karma in one lifetime than others. If you suffer a larger than normal amount of bad karma, it does not mean you were unusually bad in a previous life. It means you were willing to burn off more in this life. People who suffer too much in this life should be commended (for being courageous to take on more bad karma), rather than being condemned.
"...in any conflict I would give the other person the benefit of the doubt, thus letting people heap sh*t on me for many years."

--> Just remember that we can be too good. Buddha taught the Middle Way. Buddha taught moderation in all things, including being too good.
"...I had learnt from Theosophy that people who commit suicide can look down on the material plane from the astral, and regret what they have left behind, but are unable to return."

--> That is an incorrect interpretation of Theosophical teaching.
"Whether or not this is true I wouldn't know, but it provided me with a good reason NOT to kill myself."

--> I believe people who commit suicide create a lot of new problems for themselves.
"Do you think you could be a Buddhist (for example) without knowing what the Buddha taught?"

--> You could. The great thing about Buddhism is that you can live all of the Precepts without calling yourself a Buddhist.
"Of course you couldn't because Buddhism requires you to take control of your life and live in a certain way."
--> Taking control of our life does not require putting a title on it. As you have correctly said, Buddhism is a way of life, not a spouting of dogmas.
 
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