Has the bible been altered? Not translated, interpreted, but altered?

[juantoo3]

Reality is subjective.

Obviously and paradoxically, the "truth" of what I have just said in this post is only as true as it is useful (according to my view). To all in this thread, a question: Have I contributed something useful?

Yes, Salty, you have contributed something useful, as you very often do.

If I may chime in with two cents' worth of observation:

To whom does reality belong? Who owns reality?

I would argue that reality is a constant, therefore it is owned by none and simultaneously all. In other words, reality is *not* subjective, it is objective.

Truth, on the other hand, is subjective and personal.

I sense there is a great deal of confusion among people regarding this.

What word are we to use to describe what IS, that hard and fast provable and unprovable, material and immaterial, animal/ vegetable/ mineral existence in this and possibly more dimensions if not "reality?" How we each independently view reality would form our individual subjective truths, but collectively our subjective accumulated views (truths) must be of a concrete objective reality; else we are all deluded by an eternal illusion wherein reality is not real.

I can't help but think that we often switch these two terms without really considering the ramifications of what we intend to say.

And then there is the chance I am talking out of my anal orifice again, if so I would be happy to entertain a better definition that covers all of the bases. To my way of thinking something has to be objective and solid, even if our personal views of that objective solid are subjective and fluid. In other words, either reality is real, or truth is real, they cannot both be subject to personal whims and fancies.

That is not to say that because an objective reality exists that we even have the potential to view it in its raw objectivity...I don't think we have the capabilities within ourselves. But that is the underlying purpose to the spiritual quest, our personal attempt to try to view the objective reality with as much objective sight as we can handle...that is, those of us who try to shed ourselves of the pre-canned blinkered and tinted shades of subjective "truth."

 

[mee]

There are no originals.

the original ones who wrote the bible were inspired ,and some of them didnt even understand just what they were writing down.


Daniel , when he was writing the book of Daniel said ,


Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?”

And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Daniel 12;8-9



but now , WE are in the time of the end and the revealing is abundant indeed .



And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”


yes true knowledge about the bible is now well along ,and that includes a good TRANSLATION , over the centuries the many translations have become clouded with manmade traditions but the true God , has cleared them away and now the pure truth of the meanings of Gods word is abundant indeed .


“And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.Daniel 12;3


those who have been given insight are revealing many things .


(Daniel 11:33) And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days.



(Matthew 13:43) At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

 

[Quahom1]

the original ones who wrote the bible were inspired ,and some of them didnt even understand just what they were writing down.


Daniel , when he was writing the book of Daniel said ,


Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: “O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?”

And he went on to say: “Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end. Daniel 12;8-9



but now , WE are in the time of the end and the revealing is abundant indeed .



And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant.”


yes true knowledge about the bible is now well along ,and that includes a good TRANSLATION , over the centuries the many translations have become clouded with manmade traditions but the true God , has cleared them away and now the pure truth of the meanings of Gods word is abundant indeed .


“And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse; and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the stars to time indefinite, even forever.Daniel 12;3


those who have been given insight are revealing many things .


(Daniel 11:33) And as regards those having insight among the people, they will impart understanding to the many. And they will certainly be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for [some] days.



(Matthew 13:43) At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

What he means is there are no original scriptures to compare to. Even the dead sea scrolls are not considered the originals. I believe it is called something akin to the six degrees of Kevin Bacon...

 

[greymare]

6 degrees of kevin bacon (as in footloose?)???????

 

[Quahom1]

6 degrees of kevin bacon (as in footloose?)???????

Sure, name an actor who has acted with another actor, and so on to the fifth actor who has acted with Kevin Bacon.

The bible has been translated over and over again until we probably have a sixth generation version (if not more).

 

[greymare]

oh I got ya, now.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think that the first question should always be: what is the import of what the Bible says in terms of the original context? Not what is it saying to us, but what was it meant to say to its contemporary audience, and what meaning can we extrapolate from an understanding of that. The very first problem one runs into is the vested interest of the Abrahamic traditions in preserving the illusion of the biblical historicity of an ancient Israel which never actually existed. The solution, when one gets beyond grinding axes, is not in debunking mytho-history, but in understanding the original socio-political motivation on the part of the authors for creating that psuedo-history.

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

I think that the first question should always be: what is the import of what the Bible says in terms of the original context? Not what is it saying to us, but what was it meant to say to its contemporary audience, and what meaning can we extrapolate from an understanding of that. The very first problem one runs into is the vested interest of the Abrahamic traditions in preserving the illusion of the biblical historicity of an ancient Israel which never actually existed. The solution, when one gets beyond grinding axes, is not in debunking mytho-history, but in understanding the original socio-political motivation on the part of the authors for creating that psuedo-history.

Excellent point! I would go a bit further, in that a portion of creating that pseudo-history was an effort to sustain a cultural moral envelope, steeped in a rich mythical and mystical tradition.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I would go a bit further, in that a portion of creating that pseudo-history was an effort to sustain a cultural moral envelope, steeped in a rich mythical and mystical tradition.

Yes, exactly! When blatant belief or disbelief exist only at the surface of the words without penetrating the historical context a false dichotomy ensues which obliterates the possibility of a meaningful dialog between us and the authors of scripture. That dialog is, I believe, still possible even in this most post modern age.

Chris

 

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, China Cat!

Yes, exactly! When blatant belief or disbelief exist only at the surface of the words without penetrating the historical context a false dichotomy ensues which obliterates the possibility of a meaningful dialog between us and the authors of scripture. That dialog is, I believe, still possible even in this most post modern age.

I agree it is wise to place the books into an historical context. I am not certain how a false dichotomy is created by not doing so. I think it can lend to an inaccurate interpretation, but then a whole host of potential influences can cloud an interpretation. Geez, I can't even guarantee my self that my own interpretation is correct!

What I do have, and here is where I agree with what you say, is a prayerful communion in an effort to connect with those original authors so that I *can* have that meaningful dialogue. I cannot guarantee it is a precise interpretation...but if end results of practical application are any indication, then I think for the most part I am on the right track.

Maybe the symbols are more important than I am inclined to give credit, I don't know. But the underlying message rings loud and clear to me.

 

[greymare]

I think that is what I am reallly after, . fact. historical fact. as far back as we can go. i guess ill have a lot of researching to do on other sites. aaarrrggghhh.

 

[mens_sana]

the original ones who wrote the bible were inspired ...

You keep saying that — and then you quote some scripture and tell us how great the JW version of the Bible is.

However you made no effort to answer:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mee
the only inspired is the original .... true knowledge is abundant indeed ,especially when it comes to the bible

There are no originals. What does that do to the succeeding versions, which are therefore uninspired?

How is it that people honestly disagree on what this "true knowledge" is, even with biblical citations?

We have none of the originals that you call "inspired." What does that do to the copies of copies of copies of copies (6th generation is way too short :>))? What does that do to your JW version? After all, it is not inspired.

 

[mens_sana]

I think that is what I am reallly after, . fact. historical fact. as far back as we can go. i guess ill have a lot of researching to do on other sites. aaarrrggghhh.

This link is a very good place to start.
Straight Dope Staff Report: Who wrote the Bible? (Part 1)

 

[mee]

We have none of the originals that you call "inspired." What does that do to the copies of copies of copies of copies (6th generation is way too short :>))

How easily the Bible could have perished were it not for the handwritten copies that replaced the originals, with their precious message! There is only one reason for its survival—Jehovah is the Preserver and Protector of his Word. As the Bible itself says, at 1 Peter 1:24, 25: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory is like a blossom of grass; the grass becomes withered, and the flower falls off, but the saying of Jehovah endures forever.


The Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah is practically identical with the Masoretic text produced a thousand years later

 

[mee]

There are more than 1,700 ancient copies of the various portions of the Hebrew Scriptures available. By carefully comparing these many very old copies, even the few mistakes copyists made can be found and corrected. Also, there are thousands of very old copies of the Greek Scriptures, some of which copies date back nearly to the time of Jesus and his apostles. Thus, as Sir Frederic Kenyon said: “The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed.”—The Bible and Archaeology, pages 288, 289.

This does not mean that there have not been attempts to change God’s Word. There have been. A notable example is 1 John 5:7. In the King James Version of 1611 it reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” Yet these words do not appear in any of the very early copies of the Bible. They were added by someone who was trying to support the Trinity teaching. Since it is clear that these words are not really part of God’s Word, corrections have been made and the words do not appear in newer Bibles.

So anyone who says that the Bible does not contain the same information as when it was originally written simply does not know the facts. Jehovah God has seen to it that his Word has been protected not only from mistakes copyists made but also from attempts of others to make additions to it. The Bible itself contains God’s promise that his Word would be kept in a pure form for us today.—Psalm 12:6, 7; Daniel 12:4; 1 Peter 1:24, 25; Revelation 22:18, 19.

 

[Quahom1]

There are more than 1,700 ancient copies of the various portions of the Hebrew Scriptures available. By carefully comparing these many very old copies, even the few mistakes copyists made can be found and corrected. Also, there are thousands of very old copies of the Greek Scriptures, some of which copies date back nearly to the time of Jesus and his apostles. Thus, as Sir Frederic Kenyon said: “The last foundation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed.”—The Bible and Archaeology, pages 288, 289.

This does not mean that there have not been attempts to change God’s Word. There have been. A notable example is 1 John 5:7. In the King James Version of 1611 it reads: “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” Yet these words do not appear in any of the very early copies of the Bible. They were added by someone who was trying to support the Trinity teaching. Since it is clear that these words are not really part of God’s Word, corrections have been made and the words do not appear in newer Bibles.

So anyone who says that the Bible does not contain the same information as when it was originally written simply does not know the facts. Jehovah God has seen to it that his Word has been protected not only from mistakes copyists made but also from attempts of others to make additions to it. The Bible itself contains God’s promise that his Word would be kept in a pure form for us today.—Psalm 12:6, 7; Daniel 12:4; 1 Peter 1:24, 25; Revelation 22:18, 19.

Again, I will point out, that the "Bible" was not made by God. It was put together as a "Biblia" or library of books in the 4th century, to become the guide for the "Christian" faith. 66 books were included, and dozens excluded (that had also been used as scripture and guidance for three hundred years preceeding). The Bible is a man made construct, and therefore subject to the falibility of man.

There are only three times that God allegedly penned words Himself. The writing on the wall, the ten commandments and Jesus drawing in the dust...and we have no evidence to back that up.

Find the earliest "bible" and that would be the closest to original text. It may require accepting the Pentatuch, and then the earliest of "Christian" writings.

Better yet, innitiate a FOIA request with the Vatican...lol, I think they have much more historical data then we currently are aware of...

 

[mee]

Again, I will point out, that the "Bible" was not made by God. It was put together as a "Biblia" or library of books in the 4th century, to become the guide for the "Christian" faith. 66 books were included, and dozens excluded (that had also been used as scripture and guidance for three hundred years preceeding). The Bible is a man made construct, and therefore subject to the falibility of man.

There are only three times that God allegedly penned words Himself. The writing on the wall, the ten commandments and Jesus drawing in the dust...and we have no evidence to back that up.

Find the earliest "bible" and that would be the closest to original text. It may require accepting the Pentatuch, and then the earliest of "Christian" writings.

Better yet, innitiate a FOIA request with the Vatican...lol, I think they have much more historical data then we currently are aware of...

if it is just the words of men , then the prophecies would not come true ,but they do . the bible is a book of prophecies and they always come true, yes it is the word of God . and Jehovah is the preserver of his word.

 

[Tao_Equus]

if it is just the words of men , then the prophecies would not come true ,but they do . the bible is a book of prophecies and they always come true, yes it is the word of God . and Jehovah is the preserver of his word.

So where in the bible does it say that only 144,000 people out all the people who ever lived are going to paradise? There are some 7 million JW's now, do the majority know they aint going to make it?

Tao

 

[greymare]

ah good point. I would indeed like to know the answer as well please

 

[cyberpi]

Wisdom or truth can be given anywhere. But... will it? Should it?