As a Christian what are your thoughts?

bob x said:
Meeting Christians face-to-face has twice resulted in attempts to kill me. Usually of course I don't get such direct harm: what I get from Christians are bizarre falsehoods (like, the whole insurance industry would collapse if two of us were allowed to take care of each other) invented for no purpose than to do me harm, or nasty slanders (I could not count how many times Christians have told me I must be a child molester), or just snide derogatory remarks. I don't exactly call that "pure silver".
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Lol, you really hate those that oppose your opinion, and your will...You are no better than the "enemy" you attempt to tackle.
 
bob x said:
My "opinion"? My "will"? It is my LIFE.

I have never done harm to them.
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...I'm sorry. Look above and past to what you have posted. I guess, you will find we are both "guilty as charged", concerning frustration and anger over the years...

v/r

Q
 
I guess, you will find we are both "guilty as charged", concerning frustration and anger over the years...
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You and your kind have done harm to me. I and my kind have done no harm to you.
 
bob x said:
You and your kind have done harm to me. I and my kind have done no harm to you.
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You have harmed yourself...I did nothing to you ever, nor will I take the blame for your problems. Don't blame society for your woes. And don't ever blame me, unless I personally did you wrong, and you can prove it.

You put yourself into your own mess. Now figure out how to dig out.
 
bob x said:
You and your kind have done harm to me. I and my kind have done no harm to you.
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I'm a little fuzzy on what the generalization of 'kind' is, or what the 'harm' is, but I think I get the spirit of it. If you are hurt can you disclose the ailment here, and pray to God for help? I think you could be surprised.
 
A FEW??? God, how I only wish. Millions of my good neighbors voted for my harm. And where are the *good* eggs, hmmm? Some "liberal" Christians have done good for me, often; but those Bible-believers won't even call them "Christians". Among the Bible-believers, I cannot recall one of them ever doing me a kindness; I'm sure it must have happened at least once, in my fifty years, but I would really have to stretch to come up with it.
 
bob x said:
A FEW??? God, how I only wish. Millions of my good neighbors voted for my harm. And where are the *good* eggs, hmmm? Some "liberal" Christians have done good for me, often; but those Bible-believers won't even call them "Christians". Among the Bible-believers, I cannot recall one of them ever doing me a kindness; I'm sure it must have happened at least once, in my fifty years, but I would really have to stretch to come up with it.
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Ok, so some Christians are Bible-believing some not Bible-believing?

But what does one mean by Bible-believing?

What does one have to believe about the Bible to be Bible-believing? What criteria?

You may be classified as Bible-believing or not Bible-believing depending on what you believe about the Bible.

Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox believe in the Prima Scriptura, that it is the reading of Scripture and understanding of Sacred Tradition that leads one to the true intended meaning of Scripture.

Those who are not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, particularly the Protestant churches who are fundamentalist believe in the Sola Scriptura concept. Sola Scriptura means that Scripture alone can lead to the true meaning of Christianity, without ambiguity. Scripture alone, void of tradition, leads to the truth about Christianity.

I don't believe in Sola Scriptura because the Bible is a piece of literature and all literature contains ambiguities because all literature contains imprecisions in meaning. Sola Scriptura is impossible. Sola Scriptura is impossible whenever God's messages to us is communicated through literature, impossible in all religious literature. A group of Christians can only claim Sola Scriptura, but will always be incapable of achieving Sola Scriptura. Firstly, they did not write the literature (the Bible) and secondly you can't have Sola Scriptura in any kind of literature.

Sola Scriptura is an absurd concept and I must therefore, though I am not one of their adherents, credit the Roman Catholic Church and Greek Orthodox churches for knowing and understanding that Sola Scriptura is a stupid and unworkable concept because it simply can never happen.:eek: Human languages are too ambiguous to allow any possibility for Sola Scriptura to be a valid, true and workable concept.

You can claim Sola Scriptura, and/or claim that your church has discovered Sola Scriptura by discovering how the Bible must be interpreted in order to demonstrate that it can only mean one thing, but that does not make it so. A church that makes such a claim must argue that the truth can only be found by adopting their approach to Scripture -- which means that they are forming a tradition. That contradicts any notion of Sola Scriptura. Indeed, such an approach is really a Prima Scriptura approach.

Now, why is this important? It's important because not all Christians believe in Sola Scriptura.

For anyone to believe it is their sacred duty to persecute, oppress or even kill you, they must have incredible (and/or sufficient) confidence that what they are doing is right.

A claimant in Sola Scriptura will say that the Bible either says we must kill your kind or that they should not. Claimants in Sola Scriptura will want to believe that there is only one answer to that question and that they have got it. They are also going to want to show it.

A claimant in Prima Scriptura is like one in a flock of sheep. He/she does whatever his/her shepherd tells them to do. If the tradition of the church that teaches Prima Scriptura says the action isn't condoned, the parishioner is likely to obey, as he believes in the traditions of that church and will not arrogantly assume that he knows better than his shepherd (priest/pastor/presbyter).

Claimants in Sola Scriptura are more likely to believe that they are front-line operatives in a holy war and more likely to think that they know what to do, despite what their immediate superior believes, suggests and advises. There is a lot of insolence and impetuity among claimants of Sola Scriptura, due to the belief that they either know what to do or are capable of knowing. They believe their immediate superiors to be equals in knowledge and understanding of Scripture and therefore disregard their authority and go-it-alone.

That said, I believe you were a victim of claimants to Sola Scriptura.

I don't know if that means that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are less likely to be your oppressors and persecutors. I haven't checked out the statistics. But anyway, I just wanted to let you know that we are not all of one mind. Jesus' life and sayings are open to interpretation. Monty Python's Life of Brian showed how a guy who said exactly what Jesus said could be venerated as a Prophet!!! It was, of course, a comical depiction of Jesus' life and sayings, but it just shows the ambiguity of his words. By intuition, we can discern their true intended meaning, but not all Scripture is subject to human intuition. Some people just don't use their intuition when reading Scripture.
 
Quahom1 said:
Lol, you really hate those that oppose your opinion, and your will...You are no better than the "enemy" you attempt to tackle.
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Mate.... Your avartar... Is that you walking in your house dressed up like one of darth vaders death squad or something?

bob x said:
My "opinion"? My "will"? It is my LIFE.

I have never done harm to them.
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He who seeks-th no friends-th is his-th own enemy......th.... :D
 
yes, the avatar, Q...lol... a "proper christian" into the fetish scene... don't worry mate, I'm sure Jesus will still love u! (He's going to try to cover himself by saying he was Darth Vader, or Solomon, (lol), but...)

as for what has been said in the thread.... in response..

cyberpi, I'm glad u think I'm maybe a bit hard, as it shows u have a heart, but as far as I see, proletyzing is not conversation- it's conversion!

just like madeinrussia89 -I have no problem with ppl talking about God- so long as it's "respectful and sane"

yes, Quahom, I understand what u mean by "msgs falling on a certain person's ears", but I am more concerned about the general impression this creates for the rest of us...

As BobX suggests, inspiration to take up the cross isn't generally what you're getting... what you're really getting, rather than seeds sown on fertile ground is just "seeds crushed...a turn-off"

I don't want ppl to think that ppl who have faith are mentally ill, and dismiss us, I don't want ppl to look at christians and write us off... I don't want to think that accepting Christ's message means I too have to publicly make a fool of myself to get some status from my homeys, especially if my homeys are all miserable God squadders in nylon slacks with candida and mousey brown hair moaning about how the Lord died for us, and reminding me I should drink his lamb-like blood.

You see, yes, Christianity has room for these possibly mentally ill zealots, but it also has room for me, and BobX, and 17thAngel. Yeah, we can look at Christianity Inc, and buy the t-shirt and chant the slogans, but it's rare we actually know Christ... it's just that the zealots don't like it! tough!

I can't agree with you though, BobX, when you say u feel that there's only a few good eggs in the christian camp- you're there, I'm there, AndrewX is there, Cyberpi is there, madeinrussia89 is there... even Mee and Quahom are getting there... (sorry if that offends u, Mee, Quahom) don't worry yourself about the bible thumpers, ppl- I can assure you they are most definately not in the majority... most of us just dig the vibe... and that's what it's all about, at the end of the day...

adios
 
17th Angel said:
Mate.... Your avartar... Is that you walking in your house dressed up like one of darth vaders death squad or something?




He who seeks-th no friends-th is his-th own enemy......th.... :D
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That was me coming in from a 300 KM motorcyle ride. The temperature was 3* C, so insulated leathers and full face helmet is the only way to go...:D

But if people think it's kinky...they're entitled...

v/r

Q
 
bob x said:
A FEW??? God, how I only wish. Millions of my good neighbors voted for my harm. And where are the *good* eggs, hmmm? Some "liberal" Christians have done good for me, often; but those Bible-believers won't even call them "Christians". Among the Bible-believers, I cannot recall one of them ever doing me a kindness; I'm sure it must have happened at least once, in my fifty years, but I would really have to stretch to come up with it.
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What do you mean voted for your harm? Is there some " let's beat up all the homosexuals " bill I don't know about?
 
If you go looking for the evil in people (not that you consciously go out searching), that's what you're going to find. If you have a bad experience with one Christian, and then assume that the next is going to be worse, and the next, and the next, it's just going to lend itself to more disaster. Anyone is capable of this.

There are good people out there, a lot of "good eggs", I promise, whether they be Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, or non-Christian. They are out there, they just might fall under the radar now and then.
 
Well now, I've had to think back on the question, "when in my life have Christians, particularly conservative Christians, been kind to me?" I currently have a good friend on another board, who helps me a lot with studying the ancient Greek and otherwise is kindly, and she is a staunch believer in the Pauline theology and the reality of the divine incarnation, virgin birth, miracles and resurrection of Jesus; but also a staunch opponent of fundamentalism, regarding some of the New Testament as pseudepigraphic and various of the old moral injunctions as reflections of the primitive state of societies back then rather than as eternal verities. There is another friend on the boards who is similarly conservative in ideology, though very much "live and let live" in his attitudes. For strictly fundamentalist friends, though, I would have to go back to John from high school (got into High Church Episcopalianism, showed me around New York City and introduced me to Canon West of "the Cathedral of St. John the Unfinished" and Madeleine L'Engle, the children's books author, both very solid and interesting people) and Hunter from college (charismatic street preacher; I liked him even if I didn't agree with him much; but the "Maranatha" group he was involved in started getting very cultish and I had to detach from those people)-- but that's over 30 years ago now. In the years since, Christians of the Bible-believing type have gotten harsher and harsher, while I have gotten less willing to put up with it. I am only "semi-out": I do not make a secret of it if anyone asks, but don't make a point of telling everyone either; when I hear nasty (or downright vicious) remarks and jokes, which is increasingly often as Christians get bolder in their rudeness, I generally bite my tongue (you might not expect it from how I act here, in safe anonymity, but in the offline world I am quite shy and dislike confrontation).

"For anyone to believe it is their sacred duty to persecute, oppress or even kill you, they must have incredible (and/or sufficient) confidence that what they are doing is right."
Yep.

"I don't know if that means that Catholics and Orthodox Christians are less likely to be your oppressors and persecutors. "
I haven't had any bad experience with the Orthodox. The Catholic archdiocese, however, went 50/50 with "the Family" in promoting the anti-gay ballot initiative, which was distressing since that kind of thing had formerly been more a Protestant (specifically "sola scriptura" Protestant) monopoly.

"I can't agree with you though, BobX, when you say u feel that there's only a few good eggs in the christian camp- you're there, I'm there, AndrewX is there, Cyberpi is there, madeinrussia89 is there... "
You are seriously mistaken if you think I am a "Christian" of any kind. I am a Buddhist. AndrewX is way beyond "liberal Christian", downright "radical", the type that the Bible-thumpers would not call a "Christian" at all: and as I have said, I have often had kindness from Christians who are outside the circles of those who base their beliefs principally on adherence to the text of the Bible.

"don't worry yourself about the bible thumpers, ppl- I can assure you they are most definately not in the majority... "
Around where I live, they are. You're an ocean away. I would be glad to emigrate if it was financially feasible.
 
Francis king said:
...I can't agree with you though, BobX, when you say u feel that there's only a few good eggs in the christian camp- you're there, I'm there, AndrewX is there, Cyberpi is there, madeinrussia89 is there... even Mee and Quahom are getting there... (sorry if that offends u, Mee, Quahom) don't worry yourself about the bible thumpers, ppl- I can assure you they are most definately not in the majority... most of us just dig the vibe... and that's what it's all about, at the end of the day...

adios
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...no offense offered, none taken...;)
 
Francis king said:
cyberpi, I'm glad u think I'm maybe a bit hard, as it shows u have a heart, but as far as I see, proletyzing is not conversation- it's conversion!
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I would have said you are soft. Across several threads it sounds like you fear that a person is susceptible to hypnosis. That people are susceptible to suggestion. Susceptible to being converted rather than choosing to convert. A back door that makes a person fragile to words. Deep down you fear the words and it makes you angry. If I said, "Go jump from an aircraft... its great", have I proselytized you and converted you to be a skydiver? It is your choice. I personally don't benefit whether you jump or don't, and any mistrust of my words certainly does not offend me whereas some people will literally have a hernia if you don't obey them. Now that is a behavior I'd rebuke... if the guy had a sickle in hand, gun, or excessive girth with wires coming out of it then that changes everything. That is coercion... I view that uninvited words are not. If I asked the guy on the bus to leave me alone and he keeps pestering me then he'd hear a rebuke from me he has never heard before, with words from whatever religion he wants to preach for.
 
My previous joke was meant to lighten the mood, not to hurt, but I do apologize if it did.

The voting patterns of evangelicals in America can't be depended on to represent Christians. But, at the same time you also cannot expect someone to be okay with your lifestyle when in their religion it is a serious sin (to practice), or to " get over it ", and then vote for the support of it. No matter how people may try to cover it up, the act is a grave sin to commit in every major branch of Christianity, and in Islam, and always will be. Sola scriptura or Prima scriptura, doesn't matter, it is the same across the board.

While in Christianity we are taught to condemn the sin, we shouldn't condemn the person, and that's a mistake many make.

But, if you treat Christians with contempt, and Christianity with contempt solely because of this single conflict in thought (or many, not sure), most of the time that is all you're going to get in return.

There are plenty of places to emigrate to that are financially feasible, if you are willing to live in a 3rd world country.
 
but ppl are suceptible to cohersion, defrauded, brainwashed and generally messed about every day, everywhere and in every strata of society... religion is no different... I myself have been loved bombed, lied to and buttered up by ppl desperate for me to convert to their path, not because I am rich, not because I am pretty, not because of my great contacts, but because they foolishly think everyone should think like them... so yes, it is a fear of mine that ppl are converted rather than choosing to convert...

as for assuming you are a christian, BobX, the title of the post says- as a christian what are ur thoughts, so it was a fair assumption to make...

.. blessed are the poor, the weak, the sick, for they will be open to the message... doesn't sounds like those involved choose to be christians because they want to let Jesus in... no... they want to be healed, they want their prayers answered, they are looking for strength... but instead of giving the money, or the medicine, we instead give them doctrines which tie them up in knots and make life even harder than it was when they started...

hardly seems like good news, to me...
 
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