As a Christian what are your thoughts?

[BlaznFattyz]

Jesus explicitly broke the "Commandments" on the Sabbath issue, and considered it right to do so.

Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[bob x]

He said "the son of man" (presumably rendering the generic Hebrew phrase ben-adam "son of clay" for any human being, as in "put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help") is lord of the sabbath. He was not saying that he *alone* was allowed to violate the sabbath; on the contrary, all his disciples were doing so.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

love comes first.

 

[bob x]

except when it comes to people like me?

 

[madeinrussia89]

I believe my nature to be "human", and you DISAGREE??? And you expect me to be fine with that???
Whoever taught you to think of my nature as subhuman and monstrous is an enemy of mine, at the profoundest of levels.

I disagree on the naturality of it. I don't expect you to be fine with that, but there is no point to arguing over the statement anymore.

So whoever does not think homosexuality is justifiable is your enemy?

On what basis do you say so? Both called for the death penalty, just like making images or other laws that you disregard. Leviticus puts homosexuality in the same category as shellfish-eating and fiber-mixing.
What is your basis for deciding which of the old laws you hold on to? Jesus gave you the criterion, but you don't put any importance on it.

Most of Leviticus states sacrificial/ritual law. Do we need to do sacrifices anymore? No. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Jesus told us to follow God's commandments and to follow him. In the New Testament, Jesus says explicitly to follow the commandments, the commandments of God, those are the ones we follow. That's how we decide.

This doesn't appear just in the Old Testament, either.

That's a mighty big IF there. All you know is that these humans claim they got their rules from God.

I know the Bible comes from God, in fact, I'm positive.

It ought to be relevant to whether you are a Christian, at least a "Christian" of the particular type you are.

What?

I was talking about the standard that JESUS gave. Why it is that Christians disregard that standard is a mystery to me. Basing your moral decisions on "whatever the authorities tell me" is the standard used by his crucifiers.

What standard am I disregarding? " Whatever the authorities tell me " You mean whatever my Church tells me? The Orthodox Church existed before the Bible was written, since the first Pentecost, and it's head is Jesus Christ. So, it is completely wrong to think that it is the same standard as those who nailed him to the cross.

I asked you: how, exactly, would I or anybody "make amends" for having given joy to others? By inflicting pain on them?

I have no idea. Someone who is blessed to hear confession could answer you. If you consider seperating yourself or others from sin to be inflicting pain, then that is yet, a whole 'nother ballgame.

 

[madeinrussia89]

That's your nature. It is also most people's nature. But it isn't mine. Yet I insist that I am still a human, no matter what you or your church says.

So you're acknowledging that it's not normal? It's not natural. Not for anyone. The Church doesn't say you're not human, not in the slightest. Maybe your nature isn't natural, but that doesn't mean you're not human.

By spreading the ideas you do, you may end up destroying people's lives whether that is your intent or not.

How am I destroying lives? You tell me.

 

[mee]

OK ,havent read all the posts but as a christian that believes the bible to be the word of God and worth reasoning on . i think this verse is worthy of thought.


What! Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.......1 CORINTHIANS 6;9-11


The thing that stuck out to me was that it seems to say that the things listed are things that a christian no longer takes part in . in verse 11 it says............. And yet that is what some of you WERE .......... SO a thief would nolonger pratice thiefing, so men who lie with men would refrain , many people lived their lives out of harmony with Gods ways but after learning from the bible what is right and what is wrong in Gods eyes they put themselves inline with Gods thoughts as to right and wrong for us , what we dwell on has a great bearing on how we act. so filling our minds with Gods ways would help .

“The heart is more treacherous than anything else and is desperate. Who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9, 10) Wrong thoughts and desires start to fill the heart, triggering a deadly chain reaction. “But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.”—James 1:14, 15.

 

[BlaznFattyz]

except when it comes to people like me?

this is why jesus came and was crucified on the cross, because god loves you, so you might find everlasting life through his son.

 

[bob x]

I disagree on the naturality of it.

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. It IS my nature to love other men. You seemed to be saying "Any creature that was like that by nature would not be human-- but that's why I don't believe you're really like that". The problem is, of course, that I REALLY TRULY AM like that; the creature that you are refusing to recognize as human is, in fact, me.

So whoever does not think homosexuality is justifiable is your enemy?

You don't think it's "justifiable" for me to exist at all? Obviously that is being my enemy at the profoundest of levels.

Leviticus states sacrificial/ritual law. Do we need to do sacrifices anymore? No.

Do you need to avoid such "abominations" as shellfish, mixed-fiber clothing, and crop rotation? No.
What makes you pick out one particular sentence in Leviticus and say "THAT is eternally applicable" even though you disregard the continuation of the sentence (the part that says you have to kill us) as "not" applicable? You appear to have no moral standards at all for deciding such a question, except "whatever my church says".

In the New Testament, Jesus says explicitly to follow the commandments, the commandments of God, those are the ones we follow.

He doesn't tell you to follow every letter in the old book: he tells you to follow these commandments, "love God with all you have, and love your neighbor as yourself"; and if you bothered to apply those principles, you would know what parts of Leviticus are meaningful and what aren't.

I know the Bible comes from God, in fact, I'm positive.

OH??? You were there when the book was written? Pray tell me how you come by such "knowledge"!
Or do you mean, that you "believe" very strongly?

It ought to be relevant to whether you are a Christian, at least a "Christian" of the particular type you are. What?

If your church tells you that the moon is made of green cheese, in fact tells you that GOD SAYS the moon is made of green cheese, then the experience of Neil Armstrong, who has actually been there, should be relevant to whether you ought to believe that your church knows what it's talking about, either about the moon or about what GOD SAYS.
Your church tells you things about my nature, which I know, in the direct cogito ergo sum sense of "know", to be untrue. Since you don't have the direct knowledge of what is in my head, you can decide that I am lying to you, but don't pretend that there is any possibility that I am mistaken. I know what I am, and neither you nor your church has anything to teach me about it.

I asked you: how, exactly, would I or anybody "make amends" for having given joy to others? By inflicting pain on them? I have no idea. Someone who is blessed to hear confession could answer you.

You are mistaken. Nobody in your church has any kind of an answer.

So you're acknowledging that it's not normal?

??? OF COURSE I'm in a minority in that respect, as in many others. My blue eyes aren't "normal" either: it is natural for most people to have dark eyes. Neither is white skin "normal", for that matter.

It's not natural. Not for anyone

It is for ME. Now you are excluding me from being "anyone", again.

Maybe your nature isn't natural

What the hell does that mean???? My eyes have a blueness, but that blueness isn't blue?

 

[madeinrussia89]

I don't even know what you're saying anymore. It IS my nature to love other men. You seemed to be saying "Any creature that was like that by nature would not be human-- but that's why I don't believe you're really like that". The problem is, of course, that I REALLY TRULY AM like that; the creature that you are refusing to recognize as human is, in fact, me.

I am not refusing to recognize you as human, that is insane. I am refusing to believe that homosexuality is a natural and normal state of being.

God didn't create us to sin so I cannot accept that it is natural state of things.

You don't think it's "justifiable" for me to exist at all? Obviously that is being my enemy at the profoundest of levels.

You are blowing my statement way out of proportion. I don't think the sin is justifiable in that there is no way it can be positive. It is a sin, it is wrong, and it will never be right. That's what I mean.

Do you need to avoid such "abominations" as shellfish, mixed-fiber clothing, and crop rotation? No.
What makes you pick out one particular sentence in Leviticus and say "THAT is eternally applicable" even though you disregard the continuation of the sentence (the part that says you have to kill us) as "not" applicable? You appear to have no moral standards at all for deciding such a question, except "whatever my church says".

We do not keep dietary laws because of this:

Mark 7:18 And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him; because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?"

Thus, we can eat whatever we want.

As for Homosexuality, in the New Testament, the verse Mee quotes is perfect:

Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.......1 CORINTHIANS 6;9-11

The status of it as a sin did not change.

He doesn't tell you to follow every letter in the old book: he tells you to follow these commandments, "love God with all you have, and love your neighbor as yourself"; and if you bothered to apply those principles, you would know what parts of Leviticus are meaningful and what aren't.

Yes Bob, because you are the final authority on Jesus Christ, and nearly 2,000 years of sacred tradition and wisdom is meaningless compared to your earthly logic.

I just told you how I know and WHY which parts of Leviticus are still applicable.

OH??? You were there when the book was written? Pray tell me how you come by such "knowledge"!
Or do you mean, that you "believe" very strongly?

I believe it completely. That's what I mean. It is completely trivial for me to have needed to be there when it was written, because with apostolic succession, the faith is unchanged.

If your church tells you that the moon is made of green cheese, in fact tells you that GOD SAYS the moon is made of green cheese, then the experience of Neil Armstrong, who has actually been there, should be relevant to whether you ought to believe that your church knows what it's talking about, either about the moon or about what GOD SAYS.
Your church tells you things about my nature, which I know, in the direct cogito ergo sum sense of "know", to be untrue. Since you don't have the direct knowledge of what is in my head, you can decide that I am lying to you, but don't pretend that there is any possibility that I am mistaken. I know what I am, and neither you nor your church has anything to teach me about it.

That is ridiculous. Jesus has actually been there, the Apostles have actually been there, the Saints have been there, that's what the Church was and IS based on, not random ridiculous assumptions that sprung up out of the woodwork like you are suggesting.

I don't need to know what is in your head to say that homosexuality is a sin and is not natural in that it is a deviation from our creation.

It is your choice to accept or deny the teachings, not arguing with that.

You are mistaken. Nobody in your church has any kind of an answer.

It has the answer, you just don't like it and don't want to hear it.

What the hell does that mean???? My eyes have a blueness, but that blueness isn't blue?

It was a rather bad typo, actually, that I just became aware of. It should have said " What you think your nature is isn't natural ".

 

[wil]

We do not keep dietary laws because of this:
...Thus, we can eat whatever we want.
As for Homosexuality, in the New Testament, the verse Mee quotes is perfect:Mark 7:18 And He said to them, "Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him (oops slight edit)

Namaste mir,

Jesus also said, ye without sin cast the first stone.

One should consider their judgment of others may come back to haunt them.

God didn't create us to sin so I cannot accept that it is natural state of things.

Well I'm thankful that you are one of those folks that thinks all of the world is nothing but unworthy sinners!

and actually let us discuss mee's quote

Do YOU not know that unrighteous persons will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be misled. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, 10 nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 And yet that is what some of YOU were. But YOU have been washed clean, but YOU have been sanctified, but YOU have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God....

I suppose you all rant and jump on all those that lay idoly around playing video games, or some such nonsense, and no revelry 'round your house, nor fornicators? no we'll have none of that will we...

Stone them all!!!

oops, I forgot if they are Christian they have been declared righteous.

 

[cyberpi]

Jesus also said, ye without sin cast the first stone.

... yet it worked for David?

One should consider their judgment of others...

... yet it worked for the Son of David?


Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

Matthew 23:33 "You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?"

It seems to me the 'fire and brimstone' preachers, or those judged as being judgmental teachers, might... might actually be following someone's example?! Well, just how many preachers delivering baptism ceremonies actually has the person deliver a confession, or how many turn to the crowd and tells them they are a generation of vipers?

 

[bob x]

I am not refusing to recognize you as human, that is insane. I am refusing to believe that homosexuality is a natural and normal state of being.

It is MY natural state. It may be a minority natural state, but it as natural to me as blueness is natural to my eyes, although that is a minority state also.

God didn't create us to sin so...

...so it follows that the way God created me is not a "sin", no matter what your church says.

I don't think the sin is justifiable in that there is no way it can be positive.

It is the love in my heart, the beauty in my sight, the joy that I share with others. These are all positive things, indeed HOLY to me.

It is a sin, it is wrong, and it will never be right. That's what I mean.

Stop calling me "it". You are saying that *I* am wrong, and *I* will never be right.

We do not keep dietary laws because of this:

Jesus is saying, AGAIN, that right and wrong are not defined by "whatever the old book says". How do you decide which parts of the old book are still relevant and which aren't? Jesus tried to tell you, but I see no sign that you hear him at all.

I just told you how I know and WHY which parts of Leviticus are still applicable.

I must have missed it then.

It is completely trivial for me to have needed to be there when it was written, because with apostolic succession, the faith is unchanged.

The church has changed radically, several times, during the course of its history.

That is ridiculous. Jesus has actually been there, the Apostles have actually been there, the Saints have been there

You're saying Jesus, the Apostles, and the Saints were all homosexuals???? *I* am the one who has "been there".

I don't need to know what is in your head to say that homosexuality is a sin and is not natural in that it is a deviation from our creation.

To say that it is not my nature is to make an assertion about what is in me, an assertion I know to be false. Now of course you can say that I am a "deviation from our creation", excluding me from that "our": God created YOU, but Satan must have made ME?

It is your choice to accept or deny the teachings, not arguing with that.

I have no such "choice" to make: I know quite directly that what you say is false. I cannot look at the sky, see it as blue, and "choose" to believe that it is green, or even more absurdly, "choose" to believe that I see it as green.

You are mistaken. Nobody in your church has any kind of an answer. It has the answer, you just don't like it and don't want to hear it.

Not to the question at issue, which was "how, exactly, would I or anybody "make amends" for having given joy to others? By inflicting pain on them? " You admit that you cannot give any answer to that, but you express the opinion that others in your church can: you are mistaken about that; at least, I have found no conservative Christians, regardless of denomination or ordained status, who has any kind of answer to that.
Now of course your church does give some kinds of "answers" that I do not like to hear. By nature, I find love and joy and beauty where most male humans would not; and your church's "answer" to what I should do is, "Forgo the joys that other humans are allowed to have", which I do not like to hear because people's lives have been rendered pointlessly miserable through following such horrible advice. Asked why joy is "bad" and misery is "good" in my case, your church answers "Because no human being could by nature find joy in such a way", which I do not like to hear because I know it to be a falsehood; and also because those who agree with your church that any creature whose nature is as my nature actually is could not be human, but who do not share your illusion that "Gee, you must not actually be like that, then" but rather understand fully that I am what I am, will naturally then treat me as a subhuman.

It should have said " What you think your nature is isn't natural ".

I KNOW my nature, directly. To repeat, "Since you don't have the direct knowledge of what is in my head, you can decide that I am lying to you, but don't pretend that there is any possibility that I am mistaken."

 

[cyberpi]

Technically, the 'natural' behavior in anyone is the drive behind adultery, fornication, and a host of other things. There is a strong genetic drive or addiction towards something... a drive that children and some elderly don't have.

 

[bob x]

Technically, the 'natural' behavior in anyone is the drive behind adultery, fornication, and a host of other things.

That's right. And if anybody should ask why they suppress their natural urges to screw whoever is in sight, a moral argument can be made on the base of not doing harm to others-- but that is not the argument that is made to me. Instead I get this very strange denial that it is in my nature, when in fact it is a very prominent part of my nature.

 

[mee]

Namaste mir,

Jesus also said, ye without sin cast the first stone.

One should consider their judgment of others may come back to haunt them.Well I'm thankful that you are one of those folks that thinks all of the world is nothing but unworthy sinners!

and actually let us discuss mee's quote I suppose you all rant and jump on all those that lay idoly around playing video games, or some such nonsense, and no revelry 'round your house, nor fornicators? no we'll have none of that will we...

Stone them all!!!

oops, I forgot if they are Christian they have been declared righteous.

As i mentioned in the post earlier ,what struck me was what it says in verse 11 .. it says thats what some of you WERE remember it was believers that were being spoken to here ,so after becoming christians they gave up unclean practices.


(Colossians 3:7) In those very things YOU, too, once walked when YOU used to live in them.



(Titus 3:3) For even we were once senseless, disobedient, being misled, being slaves to various desires and pleasures, carrying on in badness and envy, abhorrent, hating one another.

people do allsorts of things before becoming believers


(Ephesians 2:3) Yes, among them we all at one time conducted ourselves in harmony with the desires of our flesh, doing the things willed by the flesh and the thoughts, and we were naturally children of wrath even as the rest.



(Titus 3:3) For even we were once senseless, disobedient, being misled, being slaves to various desires and pleasures, carrying on in badness and envy, abhorrent, hating one another.

 

[bob x]

Well, one thing we can't be accused of is "hating one another"; we would have to become Christians to start doing that.

 

[mee]

Well, one thing we can't be accused of is "hating one another"; we would have to become Christians to start doing that.

No ,we would have to start doing the following ,
When giving final instructions to his disciples, the Son of God said: "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:34, 35)


"You must love your neighbor as yourself."—MATTHEW 22:39.

 

[Saltmeister]

Well, one thing we can't be accused of is "hating one another"; we would have to become Christians to start doing that.

I think it's a question of whether, as 21st century (as opposed to 1st century) Christians we're followers of the letter of the Gospel or the Spirit of the Gospel.

 

[bob x]

You seem to be one of the Christians who opts for the spirit, but Mee is very much a prisoner of the Dead Letter.
Mee, we *already* love each other, as we are. It is only people like you who tell us to hate each other for what we are.