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cyberpi
Guest
Pattimax, do you really claim to know who is going to heaven?
Door-To-Door Missionaries
- Thread starter madeinrussia89
- Start date
bob x
Well-Known Member
When you accept Revelation and 2nd Peter, you are submitting to the authority of the Pope. Different branches of the early church had differing opinions about what should or should not be in the "New Testament" canon, but for some odd reason fundamentalist Protestants, many of whom rail against the Popes as deceitful servants of Antichrist, accept the infallibility of the church of Rome's decision on this point.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
C
cyberpi
Guest
Are your enemies going to heaven?Yes, that is my claim.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Silly man, I do NOT decide who is heaven bound. THAT is a personal decision. It is between the individual and Jesus Christ...
C
cyberpi
Guest
Does Jesus Christ tell you the personal decisions that your enemies make? Are the personal decisions of other people made known to you?pattimax said:Silly man, I do NOT decide who is heaven bound. THAT is a personal decision. It is between the individual and Jesus Christ...
Xavier Breath
Active Member
Very well put. This approach to use of dogma as a weapon leads to exclusion, and self-aggrandizement. It is a very easy trap, I think.
When we have a life-changing experience, the social animal in us urges us to share it. This is good, but when we find that the sharing does not have the same impact, we either question our ability to describe the experience (and then refine our "doctrine" to get better results) or we condemn the hearer as being somehow flawed. The latter leads to self-righteousness and all of the proud, sacrificial, self-serving transgressions of the Missionary Zealot.
The former leads us to begin to transform God from being the Creator into something that fits into our little box, and thus our Creature. When we seek to describe God with language, we cannot avoid limiting Him. All language is built on differentiating one thing or action from another. The fact that we have all (or at least mostly) acquiesced to using the masculine pronoun to refer to God is a great example. Is God Male or Female? God is neither, or both, or all, or perhaps the best answer is that this question is not only irrelevant but presumptuous. To paraphrase the Tao: The God whom we call God is not God!
The well intentioned efforts of those who seek to create more acceptable, less assailable descriptions of God generally result in creating new loopholes and more opportunities for attack. Look at all the pages spent in this thread debating the details of a God who defies description!!! I used to be very focussed on trimming and altering God to fit into a box that I could control and feel comfortable with.
Unfortunately, while I was busy building the God-In-The-Box, God stopped laughing at me long enough to demonstrate to me that the box would never be His limit.
This is, I believe, part of what the manger scene is all about. If God is willing to shove Himself into a meatsack and come to a poor, grubby little town as the illegitimate infant son of itinerant trash to prove to me that He cares, then I am never safe. He has shown He is willing to go to any length to do the impossible to enter into a relationship with me, and there is nowhere to hide from Him.
For some, the concept of a Trinity makes more sense than anything else. For others, it is a deal-breaker. God is willing to let those who need it rest in the comfort of their description of Him. I suspect it breaks His heart, though, when some of us feel entitled to dictate the terms of another person's relationship with a God none of us can truly envision, understand, or describe while we yet live.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Itinerant trash?
Xavier Breath
Active Member
Joseph was an itinerant in the sense that he (or his ancestors) had lost the land to which they had been given a right, and were therefore of the "lower classes". The Jews of the day believed that those without the land of their inheritance had sinned, and God had expelled them, and they were considered trash, or rabble.
Mary was a teenager, pregnant out of wedlock.
It sounds harsh, but they were, in their day, viewed as we view trailer-park dwellers today. The fringes, at best, and the bottom of the barrel at worst. How could anything good come out of Bethlehem?
Mary was a teenager, pregnant out of wedlock.
It sounds harsh, but they were, in their day, viewed as we view trailer-park dwellers today. The fringes, at best, and the bottom of the barrel at worst. How could anything good come out of Bethlehem?
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Good point. It's just hard to wrap your mind around when you know better.
Saltmeister
The Dangerous Dinner
Something good does come out of it when the son of a . . . trailer-park dweller starts giving us lessons about what God is like.
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mee
Guest
Jehovahs witnesses are classed as the lowest of the low , when it comes to spiritual understanding ,but you know what they say , nothing good comes out of there . how wrong people can be
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings. matthew 24;45-47
looking to the right channel is the way to go
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cyberpi
Guest
It is hard for me to wrap my mind around the act of claiming to know, telling people whether or not they are going to heaven. Which church is doing this evil... the JW's?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Ummm, in my experience, pretty much all of them. Not just Christian "churches" either, in fact not even just "monotheist churches" either.
Pretty much every faith holds some type of "arrogance of virtue," else how could they maintain their subscription rate? How can any laity justify clinging to any faith that is not superior in its virtues over the others, whether real or perceived?
I'm not saying it is right, but I will say it is normative behavior pretty much across the board.
Hard to point one finger when three more point right back...
M
mee
Guest
Jehovah God chooses those who go to heaven , and he has set the number that he wants 144,000,
And he has also made it possible for a GREAT CROWD of people from all nations to inherit the earth revelation 7;9-10. What a loving God the Almighty is. and he has revealed all about his purpose in the bible so that all people can become part of that GREATcrowd .
and Jehovah has always in the past ,and in these last days used only one channel . and his son Jesus christ is feeding the faithful ones with lots of good healthy spiritual food matthew 24;45-47. i am glad to say that i have found the faithful channel and it is verrry gooood with no unfaithfulness around . taste and see that JEHOVAH IS GOOOOD
“Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good.”—Ps. 34:8, AS.
It is to the members of the “slave” class that the righteous “sheep” have done good things.
AND THESE SHEEP ARE HELPING THE FAITHFUL ONES
‘publishing good news of something better.’—Revelation 7:9, 14.
so the question is ........ are we hindering the faithful ones or are we helping the faithful ones with the preaching of better things ?
As for me i am helping them , i am making known about better things and here is the better thing spoken of in Daniel 2;44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; Daniel 2;44
and that heavenly kingdom of God has the best king reigning (Jesus christ)
And it is GOODNEWS , it is the only way to salvation .
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14
its all happening especially in the days since 1914 When Jesus recieved kingship
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cyberpi
Guest
mee, thank you for verifying it for me... the JW's are doing the same evil. If anyone can say how many great-great-great grand children they will personally have, or can say when and where they will personally die, or can say in what revolution the life on Earth will end, then maybe it is also their business to know and state what is really up to God and the respective individuals. People change. Those who see today might not see tomorrow. Those who do not see today might see tomorrow.
A key is... the good news is: people can change. If it were not true then it would be all for nothing.
Arrogance or Ignorance? What church punches 'arrogance' in the nose, but then...juantoo3 said:
... has problem with the finger or fingers pointing back? How many fingers point in a fist? I wish that I could be so fortunate to have three or more fingers willing to point at me. Far easier to get a fist, a gun, or a moderator.juantoo3 said:Hard to point one finger when three more point right back...
A key is... the good news is: people can change. If it were not true then it would be all for nothing.
pattimax
Somewhat returning
Founded by Charles Taze Russell (born 1852), a former Congregationalist. Given the name Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931, to differentiate from the then "Watchtower" organization. Originally called the Dawn Bible Students and the Laymen's Home Missionary Movement.
Russell started out as a manager of several men's furnishing stores, and was known to hate organized religions. In fact most of his life was spent denouncing them.
At the age of 18 Russell organized a bible class in Pittsburgh, which he was elected as Pastor of in 1876. He founded the "Herald of the Morning" Magazine (1879), which turned into today's "Watchtower". Russell it seems was more interested in money making than his "Flock's" faith, charging a $1.00 a pound for his "Miracle Wheat", which the US government proved was of lower quality than the standard wheat available. His wife left him because of his questionable ethics, and he balked on paying her alimony, until once again the government (courts) had to step in.
Today the Jehovah's Witnesses corporation "Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society", makes a great deal of money selling food, wood for furniture and other items of sustenance, as well as running a Bible School, "Gilead" and other enterprises.
The group is noted for failed prophecies of the end of the world (the last one in 1975), caused the group to lose tens of thousands of members.
Their belief system is based on Arius of Alexandria (336 AD), and profess that Jehovah is God's only true name, God is not a Trinity, the Trinity is a pagan idea, Jesus is not God, Jesus is lesser than the Father, Jesus "was" Michael the Archangel, the incarnate Jesus had only one nature, Jesus died on a stake not a cross, Jesus did not complete the work of Salvation, Jesus did not physically rise from the dead, Jesus will not return at the second coming in physical form, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but a force, nor is He God, Salvation is through works, hell does not exist, there is no conscious existence after death, Annihilationism is true, there are two peoples of God, false prophets are not recognizable, and they have the collective ability to prophesize.
Try wrapping your mind around this.
Russell started out as a manager of several men's furnishing stores, and was known to hate organized religions. In fact most of his life was spent denouncing them.
At the age of 18 Russell organized a bible class in Pittsburgh, which he was elected as Pastor of in 1876. He founded the "Herald of the Morning" Magazine (1879), which turned into today's "Watchtower". Russell it seems was more interested in money making than his "Flock's" faith, charging a $1.00 a pound for his "Miracle Wheat", which the US government proved was of lower quality than the standard wheat available. His wife left him because of his questionable ethics, and he balked on paying her alimony, until once again the government (courts) had to step in.
Today the Jehovah's Witnesses corporation "Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society", makes a great deal of money selling food, wood for furniture and other items of sustenance, as well as running a Bible School, "Gilead" and other enterprises.
The group is noted for failed prophecies of the end of the world (the last one in 1975), caused the group to lose tens of thousands of members.
Their belief system is based on Arius of Alexandria (336 AD), and profess that Jehovah is God's only true name, God is not a Trinity, the Trinity is a pagan idea, Jesus is not God, Jesus is lesser than the Father, Jesus "was" Michael the Archangel, the incarnate Jesus had only one nature, Jesus died on a stake not a cross, Jesus did not complete the work of Salvation, Jesus did not physically rise from the dead, Jesus will not return at the second coming in physical form, the Holy Spirit is not a person, but a force, nor is He God, Salvation is through works, hell does not exist, there is no conscious existence after death, Annihilationism is true, there are two peoples of God, false prophets are not recognizable, and they have the collective ability to prophesize.
Try wrapping your mind around this.
Jehovah God chooses those who go to heaven , and he has set the number that he wants 144,000,
And he has also made it possible for a GREAT CROWD of people from all nations to inherit the earth revelation 7;9-10. What a loving God the Almighty is. and he has revealed all about his purpose in the bible so that all people can become part of that GREATcrowd .
taste and see that JEHOVAH IS GOOOOD
“Oh taste and see that Jehovah is good.”—Ps. 34:8, AS.
It is to the members of the “slave” class that the righteous “sheep” have done good things.
AND THESE SHEEP ARE HELPING THE FAITHFUL ONES
‘publishing good news of something better.’—Revelation 7:9, 14.
so the question is ........ are we hindering the faithful ones or are we helping the faithful ones with the preaching of better things ?
As for me i am helping them , i am making known about better things and here is the better thing spoken of in Daniel 2;44
And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; Daniel 2;44
and that heavenly kingdom of God has the best king reigning (Jesus christ)
And it is GOODNEWS , it is the only way to salvation .
And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come. matthew 24;14
its all happening especially in the days since 1914 When Jesus recieved kingship
Guess I'm one of the lucky 144,000 going to heaven, because that is what my faith says if I accept Christ. But the way I figure it, it must be 144,000 times 144,000, or about 20,000,000,000 (just about as many people as have ever lived on earth to date).
greymare
Well-Known Member
Pattimax, thanks for clarifying that for me. Its hard to get out of some people the information that you need without getting a whole heap of quotes. thanks again.
Q, oh well, Ill just wave to you and your lot as you ascend. im sure im not going anywhere. LOL.
Q, oh well, Ill just wave to you and your lot as you ascend. im sure im not going anywhere. LOL.