What then should we conclude?

[Snoopy]

I'm sorry if I'm not up to snuf on the zen stuff guys, but if I am understanding correctly, I think these Biblical passages conform pretty closely to the concept of "have you eaten your rice gruel? good, now go and wash your bowl." I think we (myself especially) get caught up in learning the lessons, and sometimes forget to apply those lessons. Without practical application, knowledge is vanity and wasted effort.

No sweat juan, it's almost as if this was a comparative religion forum

And you're right.

s.

 

[Snoopy]

There are Zen terms for the world of phenomena and for the "uncarved block,"

In Zen terminology the world of phenomena and the Uncarved Block might be said to involve the five skandhas arising and falling back into shunyata.

This resonates with modern physics in a most interesting way (to me at least!). As notions of solidity and permanence are being superceded by ones of energy and process, two orders of reality have been posited: the explicate or unfolded order (aka skandhas) and the implicate or enfolded order (aka shunyata). Hence the universe is a constant unfolding and enfolding of the two orders (through codependent arising in Buddhist terminology). Why wasn't physics this interesting when I was at school!

s.

 

[Bruno's logic]

The sagacious reader who is capable of reading between these lines,
what does not stand written in them, but is nevertheless implied,
will be able to form some conception.
-Goethe Autobiography. Book xviii. Truth and Beauty.​

 

[Bruno's logic]

If we are to survive it is a good idea and only logical to take stock of our resources and re-think our mutual situation here on this life planet in the middle of infinity. For the road to Utopia is paved with understanding, the walls of Utopia are built of wisdom and all residents of Utopia pave roads and build walls. However, if there is nobody left to build, then….What?​

I know it would be difficult at best
to set aside our differences in religion (and politics)
and concentrate on what we have learned so far,
But that is exactly what humanity needs to do.
and that is my conclusion
~Bruno

 

[Virtual_Cliff]

If we are to survive it is a good idea and only logical to take stock of our resources and re-think our mutual situation here on this life planet in the middle of infinity. For the road to Utopia is paved with understanding, the walls of Utopia are built of wisdom and all residents of Utopia pave roads and build walls. However, if there is nobody left to build, then….What?​

I know it would be difficult at best
to set aside our differences in religion (and politics)
and concentrate on what we have learned so far,
But that is exactly what humanity needs to do.
and that is my conclusion
~Bruno

Set aside differences? Could we not celebrate them?
It wouldn't be a great jig-saw puzzle if every piece was the same.
-cliff

 

[Ciel]

Set aside differences? Could we not celebrate them?
It wouldn't be a great jig-saw puzzle if every piece was the same.
-cliff

Or if it were always the same picture to be remade time and time again.

The sense of completion seeing the great puzzle as a whole. Frame it or put it away, let it go, letting go. How much time and life spent turning those pieces round. Being in it.....and out of it......and.........now here...... the final piece in place.

Eureka moment.

Freedom as an overview celebrates every piece joined in harmony as peace and whole.

Smooth edges

- c -

 

[Bruno's logic]

Hello Cliff,

Set aside differences? Could we not celebrate them?
It wouldn't be a great jig-saw puzzle if every piece was the same.
-cliff

Perhaps we should all agree to disagree for awhile as we try to determine what is really going on here... what this reality, that we all share and experience, actually is. Perhaps it is time to put the puzzle together.....
I often quote minds greater than my own for it seems that this has all been said before.
~Bruno


When we speak of Nature it is wrong to forget that we are ourselves a part of Nature. We ought to view ourselves with the same curiosity and openness with which we study a tree, the sky or a thought, because we too are linked to the entire universe.(Henri Matisse)

Deep ecologists claim that before knowing what we ought to do, we must understand who we really are. (Michael Zimmerman)

What is wrong with our culture is that it offers us an inaccurate conception of the self. It depicts the personal self as existing in competition with and in opposition to nature. [We fail to realize that] if we destroy our environment, we are destroying what is in fact our larger self. (Freya Matthew)

Life is fundamentally one. (Arne Naess)

Reality cannot be found except in One single source, because of the interconnection of all things with one another. (Leibniz, 1670)

The different branches of science combine to demonstrate that the universe in its entirety can be regarded as one gigantic process, a process of becoming, of attaining new levels of existence and organization, which can properly be called a genesis or an evolution. (Huxley)

Evolutionary wisdom is quite simply the deep realization of our nature as nature. I am not referring to an abstract knowledge of other primate species as our ancestors, but rather to a deep sense of our co-emergence with the elements, the sea and atmosphere, cellular life and sunlight, plants and animals, sentience- the whole evolutionary shebang. When we can experience ourselves as part of the processes of biological and cosmic evolution, we automatically begin to break free from the domination of ego. We are finally able to loosen the tight shoe of self. Our lives gain new dimension, context, gestalt. We begin to give ourselves some space. (Wes Nisker, Buddah's Nature)

I often quote minds greater than my own because this has all been said before. ~Bruno

 

[Paladin]

Perhaps we should all agree to disagree for awhile as we try to determine what is really going on here... what this reality, that we all share and experience, actually is. Perhaps it is time to put the puzzle together.....
I often quote minds greater than my own for it seems that this has all been said before.
~Bruno

This might very well be the smartest thing I have read on these forums in a very long time.
Actuality is exactly what it is regardless of our mental machinations.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Nice thread.

Is it possible to conclude before the course is run?

Tao

 

[Bruno's logic]

"Is it possible to conclude before the course is run?" -TAO

People do it all of the time… that is we make, calculated guesses as to the outcome of sporting events before they are won, as to elections before all the ballets are read, as to a spouse before we are wed…

but if I am reading correctly between the lines of your post/question then the answer is;

of course we can...

However I surmise that there is a catch 22 aspect of attaining a clear vision of the truth.
One must allow a belief in something/anything, even if it is only a belief in oneself, before the answer that is truly sought can have a chance of being found.

So, I believe your question actually is, can Humanity make a calculated guess as to what this is that we are all collectively experiencing before the conclusion, the Armageddon, the end of time, arrives???
The answer is, again; of course we can…

First, we must allow ourselves to believe that attaining a clear vision of the truth is within our intellectual capacity, collectiveley and individually.

Second, we must agree to disagree for there is some truth and some untruths in all beliefs, faiths and religions, including science.

Third, before we make our best guess as to what this existence is and so come to a conclusion, that may, upon further evidence, be updated in the future, we must all agree to postpone our suicidal/end of the world/pessimistic ways.

Fourth, We must all be prepared to accept the possibility that the atheists are right and that we are on our own here…

Fifth, If it turns out that there is a God or Gods we must insist that they come out of the closet and show themselves for the jig is up… the God must stop this game and, come out, come out, where ever you are…

And last of all, we must admit that we may never know for sure what this existence is but we can choose to continue to exist here as a collective conscious on a very personal level of awareness. And that in and of itself is a conclusion that may very well be all that we have to go on for awhile…
~G. Bruno

 

[juantoo3]

Fifth, If it turns out that there is a God or Gods we must insist that they come out of the closet and show themselves for the jig is up… the God must stop this game and, come out, come out, where ever you are…

Sounds good, just as long as there is no G-d.

Otherwise, I'd say this attitude would invite a good stew in some really deep doo-doo.

Think about it...would you go up to the local crime boss, get directly in his face and tell him where to get off? Seems to me he would look over to his bodyguard, give the bodyguard the knowing look, and you would be escorted out the back door to your unceremonious execution.

Rather presumptuous, I'd say. If G-d exists, the game is His, the rules are His, and you (and I) are but insignificant tokens on the board. We don't call the shots, any more than we get to dictate the laws of nature.