The Function Of Belief

Well Chris, you might be right about that but doesn't that imply that there is meaning outside of ourselves? And if that is true, why doesn't everyone take away the same meaning from the same symbol?
 
Paladin said:
I find it constantly amusing to see the elaborate machinations of those desperately trying to impute some sort of higher purpose for their own self aggrandizement. Without having this story to live out of, the existential angst is too much.
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My life takes meaning by placing Faith in others. If my kids want to play soccer, then I become a soccer dad. If my wife wants to dance, then I become a dance partner. If my employer wants me to do XYZ, then I become an expert at XYZ. If God wants me to do and become something, then I am going to do and become it. The meaning to a large degree is supplied by whoever I place FAITH in, and that is not as a slave but as a servant. Likewise my children do a lot of things that I ask, and my wife, and the people who work with me.

It seems to me Paladin, that you are the one applying the meaning to a group of people, rather than seeking their meaning. You are claiming that their beliefs are due to some need for self aggrandizement or an existential angst. I'll put it this way: Shame on me if I apply my meaning to the beliefs of my own children. One of my kids at a young age had what I would call an imaginary friend for awhile. How do I know that it wasn't real? Because I couldn't see it? Because I didn't believe it? Because I think my kid had some need for self aggrandizement or an existential angst? While it is possibly true, it is not necessarily true. I might present the possibility to my kids, and let them correct me. It is their witness, not mine. They tell me their story from their viewpoint, applying their meaning to it. Not the other way around. I concede it is easy to make the mistake of getting that backwards. I do judge, and struggle to hold the definition of some words with people, but I recognize that to communicate requires obtaining the person's meaning or definitions... who is trying to communicate. It is a matter of placing Faith... I'm not a soccer dad until my kids make me a soccer dad.
 
Paladin said:
I think you're on the right track Juan. I used the word arrogant mostly as a red flag. I suppose anthropocentric would have worked but has less emotional impact.

There is a prevalent world view that sees the human race as created, having a relationship with a creator and all the rest of creation as some sort of elaborate "set" on which the play is enacted. We search for the "meaning of life" as if there is one.
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Perhaps. Yet, is it not equally (or even more?) anthropocentric to presume there is *no* meaning to life?

Given the choice between the two options, it seems to me far more productive to conduct my affairs as though there may be some ulterior purpose.

Of course, this is relegating this argument to the mental aspect of the material-manifestation *only.* I do think an entire new dimension opens when one introduces the spiritual aspect...the trick is in being open to the spiritual aspect without being anthropocentric.

Paladin said:
I find it constantly amusing to see the elaborate machinations of those desperately trying to impute some sort of higher purpose for their own self aggrandizement. Without having this story to live out of, the existential angst is too much.
Therefore, contrarians abound skewing the argument with much sound and fury signifying nothing.
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No body is prefect. ;)

Paladin said:
Ask about the 'meaning" of life, one might just as well ask, "what is the meaning of a tree?"
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And if the answer to both is pretty much the same? The question I would think then turns to whether or not one's ears are tuned to hear the answer.

China Cat Sunflower said:
Information is zipped, to use a computer analogy, into signs and symbols, creating an artifact from which the original information can be accurately reassembled. That's what I'm doing when I'm typing this. I'm encoding information into these little individual letter artifact thingies. The meaning is in the symbol. You may deduce the meaning from the symbol to whatever extent you are capable. To the extent that I fashion the artifacts to be accurate representations of the information I wish to store or transfer the meaning is encoded clearly. But the meaning ITSELF forever resides in the symbols.
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I don't disagree Chris, but I don't think this is complete. For this moment, right now, and for a brief but indeterminate time this is correct. But language and linguistic symbols morph as meanings slowly change. One need only read something written 50 years ago, when turpentine was routinely added to the washing machine to clean clothes and dietary fat was trumpeted as good for putting meat on one's bones, and cigarettes were healthy (just ask Tarzan!). Same language, but the meanings and underlying zeitgeist have changed, drastically. And that is in *just* a few generations.

Go back a hundred years to Twain's writings, or 400 years to Shakespeare. Are the meanings attached to the symbols still the same if the zeitgeist has changed and rechanged and changed again many times?

I guess what I am trying to say is that if "the meaning ITSELF forever resides in the symbols" then we could still accurately translate the cave paintings, because the meaning behind the symbols would still forever reside for all to see. The trouble arises when differing cultural meanings are attached to symbols. It may be as simple as pronunciation (how does one pronounce the "h" symbol?). It may be as drastic as an entirely different cultural meaning attached to a symbol (the swastika comes quickly to mind).

I agree with you that you are encoding a message through the symbols you have written, and by and large I believe I understand because for the most part the meanings I have learned to attach to those symbols are in agreement with yours- therefore we can communicate between ourselves.

But will what we have written today, presuming on my part it will still exist beyond our lifetimes, still hold *the exact* same meaning to someone reading this one hundred years from now? Frankly, I have my doubts. :D
 
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juantoo3 said:
Perhaps. Yet, is it not equally anthropocentric to presume there is *no* meaning to life?


And if the answer to both is pretty much the same? The question I would think then turns to whether or not one's ears are tuned to hear the answer.
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Excellent point Juan, I thought you said you didn't understand Zen;)
 
No answer then Paladin?
Paladin said:
Is there an evolutionary purpose behind the way our mind works? Many of us hold beliefs that not only cannot be demonstrated but cause conflicts with others as well. What purpose can belief (as defined as a function) serve?
Over and above a merely emotional security blanket that is;)
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Correct me if you think I am wrong, but you have questioned the purpose behind belief, to question the act of believing, to question faith. You think that those who have faith in others, who believe a belief given to them from someone else, is probably a person seeking an emotional security blanket, seeking self aggrandizement, or a servant of their own existential angst. I find that you are not rejecting a belief, but that you are really rejecting believing someone. I find that believing someone is chaotic, it is sometimes uncomfortable, it is uncertain, and it is unpredictable. It is the exact opposite of a security blanket, it is the opposite of self aggrandizement, and it is definitely not serving one's own existential angst. Believing someone is not necessarily easy. If you suggest that there is no meaning to life, I am saying if a person rejects faith in people or believing in people, then you are correct... there will be no meaning in their life. So then, what... QED?

I came across a person last year who complained that his wife never believed him. As time went on I discovered why... the guy was telling lies left and right. I had asked him if he ever lied to her, and he described himself as if he were a perfect angel. Imagine the hell she was in. When a person tells a lie, they are taking control. The liar is denying the other person's choice. The liar places Faith in himself rather than in others. He desires control of himself, and of others. So then faith is not just a function of what is heard, but also in what is said. This guy did not believe in his wife... to tell her the truth and deal with the potential consequences.

Evolution: In the wild animal Kingdom, it increases an animal to NOT believe others. They could be dinner next... lied to... taken advantage of. It often increases an animal to lie to others, or to fool them. As an animal, does it increase me to speak up and tell my visceral truth? No. A lot of animals would prefer that their fellow animal believe something other than the truth. As an animal, if I hear someone telling me a story, does it increase me to believe them? Nope. Could be a trap, could be another animal seeking dinner. So believing fellow animals is actually a non-evolutionary feature.

Whether or not anyone's creation story is true, or whether or not I even remotely understand it, I recognize that believing each other is a non-evolutionary trait. If I lack meaning in my life, I can find anyone from the street and find meaning. Obtaining meaning or purpose in life is easy to come by... if you believe in others.
 
With apologies to Juan, uh, ... I'm kinda burnt on dry definitions. This thread has stretched my brain out, and I'm tired.

I'm thinking about another kind of belief. The Disney kind. You know... if you believe with all your heart wishes do come true. My oldest daughter is seven. I got her a cool bike for her birthday in September. No training wheels this time. We had the photo op where she rode the bike soon thereafter. But she kinda crashed, and it was mostly dad holding her up. So the skinny is that she has been afraid of the new bike, and I had to let some time pass before I could coax her back on to it. But tonight she got the hang of it. I know from my own experience that there is a breakthrough point with new and scary things where the difference between letting fear hold you back and going for it is a shift in confidence. Believing in "I can do it" balances on that tiny fulcrum. That's where faith and belief meld. It's like water skiing: gotta lean back and trust.

Chris
 
China Cat Sunflower said:
With apologies to Juan, uh, ... I'm kinda burnt on dry definitions. This thread has stretched my brain out, and I'm tired.

I'm thinking about another kind of belief. The Disney kind. You know... if you believe with all your heart wishes do come true. My oldest daughter is seven. I got her a cool bike for her birthday in September. No training wheels this time. We had the photo op where she rode the bike soon thereafter. But she kinda crashed, and it was mostly dad holding her up. So the skinny is that she has been afraid of the new bike, and I had to let some time pass before I could coax her back on to it. But tonight she got the hang of it. I know from my own experience that there is a breakthrough point with new and scary things where the difference between letting fear hold you back and going for it is a shift in confidence. Believing in "I can do it" balances on that tiny fulcrum. That's where faith and belief meld. It's like water skiing: gotta lean back and trust.

Chris
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It's kinda amazing how some of our beliefs (that something is not possible) can also paralyze us.
 
You see, thats a whole other aspect of belief. Nothing monumental, no overarching principle by which the universe turns, just what is going on right now right here. Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.

Chris thank you so much for sharing that. Your story illustrates the point so very well. For you and your daughter it's about that bike, and her feelings and what is going on with all that and how you are involved in relationship with these fleeting aspects of actuality.

Maybe that's all there really is, just relationships. And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.

I must say that I have enjoyed immensely all the posts in this thread. Kind of an intellectual "stone soup" :)
 
Paladin said:
Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.
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Well to the people who do it, I find they usually do care or apply some meaning.

Paladin said:
For you and your daughter it's about that bike, and her feelings and what is going on with all that and how you are involved in relationship with these fleeting aspects of actuality.
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Is it just me... or did you just apply a meaning? If you do not care, then why did you just apply a meaning to it? You say it is about the bike. I applied different meanings when I was in each role and heard or spoke the words, "You can do it."

Paladin said:
And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.
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In the commitments where I have placed faith, if I were to think or suggest within those relationships that it does not really have to mean anything... then the relationship would probably dissolve rather quickly. I've found that people avoid meaningless relationships, including myself. I strive to understand the meaning that the other person applies to something, because otherwise there is bad communication. In any simple understanding between people, or especially in an agreement, there is a required meaning that I am NOT free to ignore. Each individual has an intended meaning, and I would rebuke sharply, or leave, someone who tells me that their words, or my words, or the event, does not really have to mean anything. If it means nothing, then it is nothing. I see no freedom in that. Free from the relationship maybe. If my dad says, "Don't worry I have got you"... it had better mean something.

Paladin, it seems that I have settled in on what you might call a cognitive dissonance. I saw a pattern in words and responded to it. If my visceral truth (or not) annoys you, I give you the power of the remote: Just say the word and I will take it somewhere else. << Freeing >>
 
Cyberpi, why would your visceral truth annoy me?
your perspective is valid in that it comes from your experience. But for the record I do tend to define a difference between overarching meaning and the meaning we find in relationship. Call it relative and absolute if you will but each is important. I have a meaningful relationship with many people but that is between myself and them. Outside that circle it may not exist but who cares?
And yes I may apply meaning to many things, but at the same time I realize it may be arbitrary. Without an attatchment or investment in absolute truths I am free to enjoy all that life has to offer, and enjoy it deeply.
So apply any meaning you wish, that is your perogative, and in that I wish you well.

And as far as any cognitive dissonance is concerned there really is none. while it may seem so as I discourse on non-meaning yet seem to apply meaning, that is the product of sequential vs random thinking. Since I find you to be rather adept at both as the situation dictates I think you will see my "meaning" :)
 
Paladin said:
Call it relative and absolute if you will but each is important. I have a meaningful relationship with many people but that is between myself and them. Outside that circle it may not exist but who cares?
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As you discuss the function or meaning of a belief, or life, it is not clear to me whether you have been speaking about the life within a circle of relationships, and/or of the one outside of it.

Paladin said:
Without an attatchment or investment in absolute truths I am free to enjoy all that life has to offer, and enjoy it deeply.
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I submit that any existential angst is not over a truth or a belief, but in a person's absolute or relative, real or imaginary, boundary of relationships... and the boundaries of those with whom a relationship is had. I submit that those boundaries have a powerful effect on what life has to offer.

For example, maybe someone's existential angst that you refer to is really whether or not God is within their circle of relationships, or outside the circle as someone else's belief. Lots of angst in the world over that one, right?
 
I imagine so. There are those who must harbor a foundational idea of what the world is, what God might or might not be in order to function. I have no qualms with that at all. There are those who cannot delve too deeply into the mystery lest they arive at the edge staring into the abyss. My daughter is like that, it took years of therapy in order for her to function without having a rather severe panic attack in which she would black out and sometimes become violent. The only thing that seems to have a lasting effect is the NLP treatment she received some years ago. Today she is a bright healthy student of psychology. But when she and I sit down to talk we talk about current events or music, movies or how she feels about her boyfriend. I don't discuss philosophy with her because she isn't wired to go there.

Here however we can explore and compare notes with the subtle movement our minds take in relationship to actuality.
 
Paladin said:
There are those who cannot delve too deeply into the mystery lest they arive at the edge staring into the abyss.
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Drat! that fear of the unknown! I trust your daughter is doing well now.

Between this and what Chris added, it does add a bit of perspective. What is the nature of fear...our fears...what compells us to fear? What is it about boogeymen that makes us believe in them? At first glance I suppose we could write our fears off as experiences of pain or loss; but sometimes there are more encompassing fears, overwhelming fears, seemingly unfounded terrors that reside in some deep chasm in our imagination. Is there some direct association between belief and these deep seated fears?

Believe you can, or believe you cannot. Either way, you are correct.

Does fear play a role, and why? If fear is so detrimental, why is it that we fear?

What is the association between love, fear and rage? And what connection between these three and belief?
 
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seattlegal said:
It's kinda amazing how some of our beliefs (that something is not possible) can also paralyze us.
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Paralyze = Polarize ??? :confused:

I don't know why I have an image in my mind after reading this of a deer paralyzed by the headlights of an oncoming automobile. I imagine the deer frozen by its beliefs because it cannot fully fathom the reality careening down upon it. Quite a powerful symbol to me, I only hope it conveys. Moreso, I hope I appreciate the lesson. ;)
 
Paladin said:
Who cares if what we involve ourselves with every day has any real meaning or not? What does it really matter.
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What does it really matter? To the individual believer? Probably everything.

Paladin said:
Maybe that's all there really is, just relationships.
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Maybe...dunno. Then again, maybe all life is just puzzle pieces inextricably tied to each other, past-present-future.

Paladin said:
And isn't it freeing to think it doesn't have to mean anything, or have an impact on eternity just enjoy it for what it is even if you don't fully understand it you can still live it.
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Sure it is freeing to let go of weighty thoughts. I don't have to understand how an airplane flies to know that I enjoy flying in an airplane.

On the other hand, if I want to build an airplane to fly in, perhaps I had better have a pretty good handle on how an airplane works...

Which I guess is my way of saying, "does one wish to lead, or follow?" Both can be acceptable. But I've got to have a whole lot of belief in the other pilot if I'm gonna trust somebody else enough to let them do the flying for me. ;) But that's just me, my experiences have taught me to fear other pilots...

Paladin said:
I must say that I have enjoyed immensely all the posts in this thread. Kind of an intellectual "stone soup" :)
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Those are the best kind, I think. :D
 
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juantoo3 said:
Drat! that fear of the unknown! I trust your daughter is doing well now.

Between this and what Chris added, it does add a bit of perspective. What is the nature of fear...our fears...what compells us to fear? What is it about boogeymen that makes us believe in them? At first glance I suppose we could write our fears off as experiences of pain or loss; but sometimes there are more encompassing fears, overwhelming fears, seemingly unfounded terrors that reside in some deep chasm in our imagination. Is there some direct association between belief and these deep seated fears?

Believe you can, or believe you cannot. Either way, you are correct.

Does fear play a role, and why? If fear is so detrimental, why is it that we fear?
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Fear helps to keep the number of those receiving Darwin Awards relatively small.
 
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