Hell is a Hoax

[17th Angel]

Re: Hell is the furnace [Purification]

We are told that those who will spend eternity in this prison of pain (hell) have themselves chosen to spend eternity there - that God doesn’t send anyone to hell, but that people actually choose, themselves, to go there. Even a fool knows that no person would ever choose such a fate, but

Let's stop at the but..... Yes a fool or a NORMAL person lol would choose such a fate.... Look around you, how many know of god/heaven/satan/hell? How many know of this? Now look around you again, how many STILL choose to do what would be "classed" as something to get you down in the hot lands?

I am starting to believe in God again, and AGAIN I still cannot change things I do which destin me to hell lol.... I don't want to change because I like what I am doing..... "but you will go to hell" Then peeeeeeeeer haps that is just meant to be? It says in the bible and it says in the Qu'ran and I am guessing (Guessing!) it says something like this in the Torah... That people will be aware of the consquences for certain actions but will be like 'screw it'..... *shrugs*

 

[Azure24]

...but when you say world ,are you meaning the planet or the world of mankind. because the bible does say that those without Godly devotion will not be saved.

Where does it say this? Perhaps you should go back and read my previous posts... The Bible clearly says that EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tounge shall swear.

Even as the Flood of that time wiped out an entire world of godless people, so the fiery tribulation that climaxes Messiah’s "presence" will rid our globe of those who ignore the Kingdom in favor of ‘doing their own thing.’ Happily, many who have ‘sought first God’s kingdom and his righteousness’ will survive to inherit everlasting life in a paradise earth. Will you be one of these?—Matthew 6:33; 24:37-39; 25:31-46.

You seem to be taking a lot of this literally... What good will it be for most of man's existence if they are to die wishing they were never born and hating God for it? The flood was the first death, the latter is the second death...

The lake of fire is figurative or symbolic and that the second death is also figurative or symbolic. (have you not noticed that most of the Bible is not to be taken literally?)
​

It is the only way that these Scriptures on the lake of fire and the second death will harmonize and not contradict the rest of God’s Word. Furthermore, God plainly tells us in chapter one, verse one, that an angel "signified" this whole "Revelation of Jesus Christ" contained in this book. He "SYMBOLIZED" it, for that is what "signifies" means--to make known by signs, and signs are symbols. Therefore it can’t be literal.

Lets now see the symbolism of this prophecy. I will pick out some of the most obvious things that would be impossible to understand literally.

Notice that in verse ten (of Revelation) John informs us that,
"I was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord’s day..."
And then he begins to tell us what he hears and sees. Now the very fact that he was "in the spirit" on the Lord’s day conclusively proves that he was not literally there! Lets never lose sight of this fact: John WRITES what has been SIGNIFIED (WITH SYMBOLS) the things that he SEES and HEARS IN A VISION--IN SPIRIT!

"And I turned to see the voice that spake with me ... his eyes were as a flame of fire, and his feet like unto fine brass ... And he had in his right hand seven stars and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword..."
NONE of what I underlined is literal. Have you ever "seen a voice?" All these things are symbols that stand for other things. And God immediately gives us proof positive of this in verse 20,

"The mystery [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars ARE THE ANGELS OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE THE SEVEN CHURCHES."

Amen to that.

Numerous prophecies of the Bible show that the coming "great tribulation" will affect "all the nations" on earth. (Psalm 2:2-9; Isaiah 34:1, 2; Jeremiah 25:31-33; Ezekiel 38:23; Joel 3:12-16; Micah 5:15; Habakkuk 3:1, 12, 13) But there will be survivors!—Isaiah 26:20, 21; Daniel 12:1; Joel 2:31, 32.​

[/quote]

 

[seattlegal]

I'm more prone to think that hell is related to one's existence apart from the Divine. The imagery that Jesus employs seems indicate this. The burning is the indignation of one's heart in rejection of God and His Righteousness. In Hebrews 12:29, we read that God is a consuming fire which occurs because one who is not right with God will always know that he is not right with God and that will eat Him up, as the worm that dieth not, nor the fire quenched, as Mark 9:44 states. Deuteronomy 28:18 hints at this, "Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood"; So there is a sense of foreboding and bitterness knowing you are in that position. It is a condition of the heart towards God, that as long as one is diametrically opposed, there is that sense of wrongness that will gnaw on his spirit. The outer darkness occurs because the heart lives in darkness, as opposed to God's light. The light of God lights the soul of a man, revealing everything open. When one tries to hide from God, that heart is in darkness. We choose the darkness because we enjoy the pleasures of sin, and not the righteousness of God. We are afraid to come into the light, because we know that it will expose ourselves openly toward God. Not that God doesn't already know, but in hiding, we deceive ourselves in thinking that God doesn't know, which makes it all the worse.

Whether Hell is literal fire and brimstone, or a state of the heart, or both, the conditions promises to be most unpleasant either way.

I can sense that even now, when I know I'm not at a place I need to be, not only with God , but also the people around me. I know when I've done wrong. I know when I continue to do wrong. And as long as I keep myself in the darkness, there is that foreboding sense of wrongness that remains until I fess up and decide to get things right. The process is far from easy because it is painful emotionally, but I have found that when one gives it up to God an amazing healing comes to the heart and soul and a sense of cleansing of one's heart brings back the peace that eluded me when I tried to hide it. It is very liberating to know that God will stop prodding you when you turn back to Him. "For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God." - I John 3:20-21

We need to get past the superficial imagery of Hell and into the right relationship with God that will take us out of the despair we are in. Heaven and Hell are tried into that relationship between God and our neighbor. And I believe that when we are honest and sincere to God in this regard, He's not gonna care much what religion affiliation you are, His Grace will shine upon you.

Dondi, I would like to expand on your bitter root/wormwood scripture, including the part about a drunkard being considered sober:

Deut 29
14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today 16 (for you know that we dwelt in the land of Egypt and that we came through the nations which you passed by, 17 and you saw their abominations and their idols which were among them"—wood and stone and silver and gold); 18 so that there may not be among you man or woman or family or tribe, whose heart turns away today from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations, and that there may not be among you a root bearing bitterness or wormwood; 19 and so it may not happen, when he hears the words of this curse, that he blesses himself in his heart, saying, "I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart"—as though the drunkard could be included with the sober.​

Compare to these verses:

Isaiah 5 (reading the whole chapter is suggested)
20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil;
Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness;
Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes,
And prudent in their own sight!
22 Woe to men mighty at drinking wine,
Woe to men valiant for mixing intoxicating drink,
23 Who justify the wicked for a bribe,
And take away justice from the righteous man!
24 Therefore, as the fire devours the stubble,
And the flame consumes the chaff,
So their root will be as rottenness,
And their blossom will ascend like dust;
Because they have rejected the law of the LORD of hosts,
And despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Hebrews 12
14 Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord: 15 looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.​

Compare the reference to "root" and "drunkeness" (and irrational--bad basis) to the definition of radical from dictionary.com

rad·i·cal
1.of or going to the root or origin; fundamental: a radical difference. 2.thoroughgoing or extreme, esp. as regards change from accepted or traditional forms: a radical change in the policy of a company. 3.favoring drastic political, economic, or social reforms: radical ideas; radical and anarchistic ideologues. 4.forming a basis or foundation. 5.existing inherently in a thing or person: radical defects of character. 6.Mathematics. a.pertaining to or forming a root. b.denoting or pertaining to the radical sign. c.irrational (def. 5b). 7.Grammar. of or pertaining to a root. 8.Botany. of or arising from the root or the base of the stem. –noun 9.a person who holds or follows strong convictions or extreme principles; extremist.
10. a person who advocates fundamental political, economic, and social reforms by direct and often uncompromising methods.​

It does seem as if radicals are consumed by a fire...

 

[mee]

Where does it say this? Perhaps you should go back and read my previous posts... The Bible clearly says that EVERY knee shall bow, EVERY tounge shall swear.

​

quote]



Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance. 2 peter 3;9


it seems that those who are not repentant will not go on to have future blessings . those who are repentant and on the side of the most high will bend their knee . and he is very patient with us allowing us time to be on the right side
and yes i do agree with you that the book of revelation is highly symbolic and when it speaks of the lake of fire it is not a litral lake of fire it is symbolic

 

[Azure24]

Ok.

 

[seattlegal]

You seem to show a bit of Zoroastrian influence, Azure24.

 

[Azure24]

Let us go back to Jesus' crucifxion

"I am innocent of the blood of this JUST PERSON" (Mat. 27:24)

"They ALL [priests & citizens] say unto him" (Ver 22)
"let Him be crucified"

"WHY, what evil hath He done?" (Ver. 23)
"let Him be crucified"

"Jesus answered ... The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them" (Matt. 11:4-5)

"crucify Him"

"Come unto me, all ye [sinners] ... I will give you rest" (Mat. 11:28)
"crucify Him"
"I [Jesus] have compassion on the multitude [of sinners]" (Mat. 15:32)
"crucify Him"
"For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost" (Mat. 18:11)
"crucify Him"

Are these cruel murderers of the very Son of God evil enough to be counted the worst of the worst sinners who have ever drawn breath?

Maybe...

First, does anyone doubt that God the Father ALWAYS heard Christ’s prayers? "Father, I thank thee that Thou HAST HEARD me. And I knew that thou HEAREST ME ALWAYS..." (John 11:41-42). Okay then, here’s the Scripture

"And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they [everyone -- you, me, the WHOLE WORLD] CRUCIFIED HIM..."

But before our Saviour died, He prayed this prayer: "FATHER ... FORGIVE THEM ... for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:33-34).

Meditate on that verse for a few hours -- or years! My prayer is that not one person reading this will ever forget this verse and Christ’s prayer for the forgiveness of the world's worst of the worst sinners, before any of them even thought to repent.

Now if any of you, in your holier-than-thou self-righteousness, feel that you had no part in the death of your own Saviour, Who died for you and your sins, you will still have to contend with the fact that God honored Christ’s prayer by forgiving those who did, literally, crucify Him, before they ever repented or accepted Him as their Lord and Saviour. Do you think that just maybe our Lord knows something about the future judgment of these, as of yet unrepentant murderers, that is not taught in Christendom today?

 

[Bruce Michael]

i think it is more about being cutt-off from future blessings ,not about punishment ,and in the end it is up to Jehovah who he has in his memory when it comes to those who have fallen asleep in death .

A few more for you Brother-
Is it annihilation or permanent sleep that you believe in?
Is everyone who is not a Jehovah's witness going into a permanent sleep? Cut off- isn't that like shunning?

John 5;28-29 but i think that a person does really show whos side he is on by his attitude and actions . maybe they in the end choose to be cut-off.

Cut-off: folk are meant to choose permanent sleep. "Whos side he is on by his attitude and actions" - so that is enough then? Don't you also expect everyone to join your Church?

If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

Can necromancers wake the Dead? According to the Bible they can.

-Br.Bruce

 

[mee]

A few more for you Brother-
Is it annihilation or permanent sleep that you believe in?
Is everyone who is not a Jehovah's witness going into a permanent sleep? Cut off- isn't that like shunning?




Cut-off: folk are meant to choose permanent sleep. "Whos side he is on by his attitude and actions" - so that is enough then? Don't you also expect everyone to join your Church?

If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

Can necromancers wake the Dead? According to the Bible they can.

-Br.Bruce

For evildoers themselves will be cut off,
But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth.psalm 37;9


i dont think it means a shunning it means they will not possess the earth,​

 

[mee]

A few more for you Brother-
Is it annihilation or permanent sleep that you believe in?
Is everyone who is not a Jehovah's witness going into a permanent sleep? Cut off- isn't that like shunning?




Cut-off: folk are meant to choose permanent sleep. "Whos side he is on by his attitude and actions" - so that is enough then? Don't you also expect everyone to join your Church?

If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

Can necromancers wake the Dead? According to the Bible they can.

-Br.Bruce

Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that "the goats" cut off in the coming war of God will experience "everlasting cutting-off" in "the lake of fire," which symbolizes permanent annihilation.—Revelation 20:10, 14.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:11-21 indicate that "the goats" cut off in the coming war of God will experience "everlasting cutting-off" in "the lake of fire," which symbolizes permanent annihilation.—Revelation 20:10, 14.

Question still to be answered:
If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

Can necromancers wake the Dead? According to the Bible they can.

The Sadducees, like the Witnesses, believed in the annihilation of the soul at death. Therefore, Jehovah’s Witnesses should answer the same question Jesus asked the Sadducees, namely, “…have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matthew 22:31,32). Jesus is here quoting Exodus 3:6 which was spoken several hundred years after the death of these men. But, according to Jesus they are still living.

 

[Penguin]

To me Hell is either staying in blackness, or being re-born on earth. Never seeing the light of christ and god or attaining that blissful state of peace (aka heaven/paradise)

 

[mee]

Question still to be answered:
If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

quote]
WHY INDEED , because there are many beliefs around at this time ,and back then which were not according to accurate knowledge, and Jehovah did not want his people to be misled by satanic teachings ,that age old teaching that we do not die has been around even back then. and those who listened and acted on Gods words did not get involved with it , but as you say the bible is not silent about it, it talks and tells us what went on . but it is based on a lie that satan started . YOU WILL NOT DIE . Christians to day are warned to have no dealings in spirit mediums and the like just as those back then were forewarned.

 

[Bruce Michael]

Question still to be answered:
If in the Old Testament the Jews believed that the dead ceased to exist consciously then why did God find it necessary to forbid them to practice necromancy (seeking after the dead)? Why would anyone try to make contact with the dead if they believed the dead had no conscious existence?

quote]
WHY INDEED , because there are many beliefs around at this time ,and back then which were not according to accurate knowledge, and Jehovah did not want his people to be misled by satanic teachings ,that age old teaching that we do not die has been around even back then. and those who listened and acted on Gods words did not get involved with it , but as you say the bible is not silent about it, it talks and tells us what went on . but it is based on a lie that satan started . YOU WILL NOT DIE . Christians to day are warned to have no dealings in spirit mediums and the like just as those back then were forewarned.

Nice try Mee but no cigar for you this time. Why would necromancy be banned if it wasn't going to work in the first place?

You can disagree with the Watchtower you know- no one is watching.
Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[mee]

Nice try Mee but no cigar for you this time. Why would
But they will do all these things against YOU on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me
be banned if it wasn't going to work in the first place?

You can disagree with the Watchtower you know- no one is watching.
Regards,
Br.Bruce

satan is the great deciever and pretending to be a dead person is just up his street . promoting the age old YOU WILL NOT DIE lie

 

[Bruce Michael]

satan is the great deciever and pretending to be a dead person is just up his street . promoting the age old YOU WILL NOT DIE lie

Hmmmm- the Devil did it? How do you know he's not deceiving you?
How do you know he's not promoting the "you will die" lie?

And why won't the Watchtower Society let you think for yourself?

If death is a cessation of existence then when Jesus died he ceased to exist. If He ceased to exist, then any “Jesus” who appeared afterward would have to be a facsimile, a clone, a perfect copy, but not possibly could he be the original. So then, how could Jesus, the person who died for our sins, rise from the dead, as the scriptures affirm (1 Cor. 15:4, 12-21)?

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

 

[mee]

Hmmmm- the Devil did it? How do you know he's not deceiving you?
How do you know he's not promoting the "you will die" lie?

And why won't the Watchtower Society let you think for yourself?

If death is a cessation of existence then when Jesus died he ceased to exist. If He ceased to exist, then any “Jesus” who appeared afterward would have to be a facsimile, a clone, a perfect copy, but not possibly could he be the original. So then, how could Jesus, the person who died for our sins, rise from the dead, as the scriptures affirm (1 Cor. 15:4, 12-21)?

Best Regards,
Br.Bruce

i know that i havent been decieved because we all die everyone one of us. ROMANS 5;12. i think that is very plain to see .

satan was the originator of the first ever lie ,and he said to eve that she would not die if she eat of the fruit . BIG LIE,
we are in a dieing state ever since .


many people have many thoughts about Jehovahs witnesses , but those thoughts are not always according to accurate knowledge . so it seems that you have been listening to inacurate thooughts. and then you have been decieved by them. many people do listen to inaccurate thoughts . so you are not the only one

the fact that Jesus was resurrected by his father Jehovah , and Jehovah being the creator of humans ,it is no big deal to him to resurrect people . and Jehovah will even give his son Jesus great aurthority and power to resurrect others . John 5;28-29. its good isnt it

 

[Azure24]

satan was the originator of the first ever lie...

And every lie since... In fact you too have been decieved mee...

NO ONE is going to exprience "Hell" or anything similar to it...

23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melki, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28the son of Melki, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nahshon, 33the son of Amminadab, the son of Ram,
the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, 38the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

It clearly states here (at the bottom) that Adam is the son of God. So is Jesus, hence Jesus is the "second" Adam. Which in Adam ALL men were bound to die, as in Jesus "the second Adam" ALL men will be saved from death (in revelation).

 

[mee]

NO ONE is going to exprience "Hell" or anything similar to it...
quote]
what are you talking about when you mention hell? if it is hellfire i quite agree. and those in sheol and hades will be resurrected from death . and Jesus is the way

 

[Bruce Michael]

many people have many thoughts about Jehovahs witnesses , but those thoughts are not always according to accurate knowledge . so it seems that you have been listening to inacurate thooughts. and then you have been decieved by them. many people do listen to inaccurate thoughts . so you are not the only one

In Luke, Jesus says to the thief next to him: "Surely today you will be with me in paradise."

Since you are not allowed to think for yourself Mee, then wouldn't it be more likely that you're being deceived?

Is not the attitude toward the Anointed Remnant by each member of the Great Crowd the determining factor as to whether he individually receives everlasting life, or death, according to the Watchtower of 8-1-81 (p. 26)?


XXX,

Br.Bruce