There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

Tao_Equus said:
No, thats just the DT's kicking in ;):D
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Lol, if one is totally color blind (no cones which though rare, does happen in humans), then they see nothing but dissappearing dots...(that are actually gray), in a circular pattern...
 
To understand free will I think that you have to ask yourself some fundamental questions about God, as follows.

Question 1: Do I believe that god is omnipotent and omniscient?

All that comes down to is how powerful do you believe god to be. Omnipresent applies also, but it's not so relevant to this discussion. The most relevant here is omniscient.
If you believe God to be all of the above, then...

Question 2: If God is omniscient, and knows everything-and I mean everything-then how is it possible that he wouldn't know what I, or anyone or anything in this universe that he has created, will do?

Now this question does not only apply to what they will do next. If God is truly omniscient, he would have known what every living thing that he created would do throughout the life span of the universe, before he had even created it. Because only that would be true omniscience. if you follow that, then...

Question 3: If God knows what I will do throughout my whole life, and knew this before he had even created the universe, how can that count as having free will?

And it can't. You decide what you will do each morning when you wake up, but God already knows if you're going to have coffee or orange juice on the first Friday morning of next month. :D

From our perspective it truly does feel like we decide, and we do. God is not sitting there with a video game controller telling you when to go to the bathroom. Why would he have to be if he were truly omnipotent? If he decides to get up and make a sandwich you will not forget to go to the bathroom until you loose all bowel control. (forgive the analogies)

But he knew before time in this universe began that you would pick the blue tie over the red for that big meeting on Wednesday.

I think that God isn't given as much credit as he deserves. People try to humanize him. Try to make it look like he makes mistakes just like the rest of us. But why would he. People throw around the word omnipotent without taking the time to fully grasp what it means. True omnipotence means ALL powerful. Think about it.

We don't have free will. Just the illusion of free will, which, when you're down here, is about the same thing.

The point is that from down here, it really doesn't matter that we don't have free will, because it feels like we do. From gods perspective though, every tiny detail was planned out beforehand, and an important piece of the whole puzzle.

Everything that happens is supposed to happen. It has to be that way. Because a truly omnipotent God wouldn't make mistakes.;)
 
citizenzen said:
That actually is my goal too. But I've only been married for 15 years, so I have a long way to go.
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I think that would be the goal of every loving husband, which is precisely my point: such a thing is a goal to be achieved over time, and not something stumbled into by a newlywed. That claim is much too simplistic for a wise old man to have made. Thus, the likelihood is that either Mr. Tutt is not as wise as he claims to be, or Mr. Tutt is not as old as he claims to be.
 
Marsh said:
I think that would be the goal of every loving husband...
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And yet so many fail so miserably.

While you would think this would be the goal of every husband, I'm afraid reality does not bear this out. Reality reveals that the main goal of many husbands (even ones that were originally "loving") is their own happiness, and when they do not attain it in desired abundance are quite willing to break their "life-long" vows.

While I disagreed with Mr. Tutt's views on free will, I did admire his take on the role of a husband in a marriage.
 
citizenzen said:
And yet so many fail so miserably.

While you would think this would be the goal of every husband, I'm afraid reality does not bear this out. Reality reveals that the main goal of many husbands (even ones that were originally "loving") is their own happiness, and when they do not attain it in desired abundance are quite willing to break their "life-long" vows.

While I disagreed with Mr. Tutt's views on free will, I did admire his take on the role of a husband in a marriage.
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Man, I would like to meet the one that kicked you in the heart...
 
Okay, immortalitylost, I'll respond to your question.

I have a big problem with it. A BIG problem.

immortalitylost said:
I think that God isn't given as much credit as he deserves. People try to humanize him. Try to make it look like he makes mistakes just like the rest of us. But why would he. People throw around the word omnipotent without taking the time to fully grasp what it means. True omnipotence means ALL powerful. Think about it.

We don't have free will. Just the illusion of free will, which, when you're down here, is about the same thing.
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You complain that people try to humanize God, but I think you're guilty of doing the same thing. You've turned Him into to a supernatural Santa Claus, who not only sees you when you're sleeping, but knows every thought, feeling and action of every person when awake.

Your God, is God the yenta, God the nosey neighbor, God the over-bearing father.

I see that as an extremely limited view of God. He has nothing better to do than watch over His creation? He is so controlling that he doesn't allow his children the freedom to choose for themselves? How boring it would be to create something that you already know everything about, to not be surprised and delighted by your creation as it grows and changes in unique and unexpected ways.
 
alright citezenzen, you did the exact thing that I was talking about. God is a nosy neighbor? Wouldn't that be boring for God? This is your argument that I am humanizing God?

This is not pick your own personal God. And that is not what I am trying to do.
All I'm saying is that God is all powerfull. All knowing. Able to be everywhere at once. That's it. I know no humans with these traits.

And I posted about what the thread is on, juantoo3. I'm sorry if you're bored with it, but if you think my position is so familliar clearly you were too bored to read it very carefully. I only posted that I was being ignored, because I posted on topic, and then all I see after my post is random off topic banter.

Forgive me if I'm being rude. I don't much like being ignored, then flippantly dismissed when I'm the only one actually discussing something relevant here.

Sorry for exploding like this.
 
I looked back in the feed trying to find what was so similar to my views, and was stumped. If you gave me a name, and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't want to, and a page in the thread, I would like to know what you were talking about. Sorry again if I was rude or something. I guess being ignored, and sounding like everyone else is what I get for coming to the thread so late...:eek:

Well, if you decide to let me know where that was, then thank you ahead of time.

See ya!
 
immortalitylost said:
All I'm saying is that God is all powerfull. All knowing. Able to be everywhere at once. That's it. I know no humans with these traits.

Forgive me if I'm being rude. I don't much like being ignored, then flippantly dismissed when I'm the only one actually discussing something relevant here.

Sorry for exploding like this.
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No, humans are not all-powerful, but humans and obsessed in human affairs. I can't imagine a God being in control of our every step, no more than you would determine the path of the tunnels in an ant farm. IMO, God the creator would set the conditions of life in motion. And then he would let His creation grow as it would.

As for being ignored and dismissed and feeling like you're the only one discussing anything relevant, welcome to the forum... you'll get used to it.
 
was it rodgertutt? Man. I didn't know that whatever he was calling his beliefs even existed. I can see how you could confuse what he was saying with what I said, but I am not part of that... group. And I don't believe the same things.

Sounds similar, completely different, from what I could see. I don't however know if this is what you were referring to juantoo3.

And like I said, I'm not trying to 'convert', just throwing my belief out there, my poorly written belief...

See ya!
 
Cititizenzen, what I was trying to get at wasn't that God was controling our every move, but that because he was all knowing he would have known how his creation would end before it even began. By no means am I saying that he was directly directing us, it's just a catch 22 because of his omniscience that he would sort of have to know everything that was ever going to happen. That's all
 
immortalitylost said:
Cititizenzen, what I was trying to get at wasn't that God was controling our every move, but that because he was all knowing he would have known how his creation would end before it even began. By no means am I saying that he was directly directing us, it's just a catch 22 because of his omniscience that he would sort of have to know everything that was ever going to happen. That's all
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Oh. Then since there's no control, then man must have free will. If I have the ability to choose A or B, then isn't that free will? Your God may have thought to Himself, "I knew he was going to pick B", but that doesn't change anything on my level. On the human level it is free will.
 
exactly! There is free will from our point of view, but since God already knows what will happen, from his point of view it would be like no free will. Like I said before, we don't have free will technically, but it doesn't really matter because from our perspective we pretty much do.
 
immortalitylost said:
exactly! There is free will from our point of view, but since God already knows what will happen, from his point of view it would be like no free will. Like I said before, we don't have free will technically, but it doesn't really matter because from our perspective we pretty much do.
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You say "we don't have free will technically", by we do have free will "technically" since we experience it as humans.

It's only from your interpretation of an omniscient God that free will doesn't exist. Why focus on the viewpoint of God when your life is not experienced on this level, and especially when your supposition about God is based on pure speculation?

Tell me, what do you admire more, the person who makes a mistake and says, "I made a mistake and will make every effort not to repeat that mistake in the future." or the person who says, "It's not my fault. I couldn't help myself." People do not gain respect and admiration by denying responsibility for their choices and actions.

Why worry about what God experiences? I prefer to focus on what we do.
 
Well that's the thing, that's why it doesn't matter really. It's just something to know for me, not some great revelation. In my opinion. And most of the time I don't worry about God's perspective, it's just something to think about. We both do and don't have free will technically, I guess.

See ya!
 
immortalitylost said:
Sounds similar, completely different, from what I could see. I don't however know if this is what you were referring to juantoo3.
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I haven't time to oblige right now. At the bottom of the thread you will find a tag called "free will vs determinism" It will take you to a number of threads where this has been discussed. Enjoy!
 
citizenzen said:
Why focus on the viewpoint of God when your life is not experienced on this level, and especially when your supposition about God is based on pure speculation?
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Actually, it isn't. It is based on the revealed word of God. Unbelief is speculation. Throwing His Word away and calling it a game of telephone is speculation.
 
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