There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[pattimax]

Quote:
Originally Posted by citizenzen
But I would also accept as evidence the presence of God in my heart and mind.


What do you mean by this? I'm honestly interested, because that's a very 'religious' term, and one that I've never really understood.

Since you are genuinely interested, let me tell you about my experience of having God in my heart and mind. Most Christians talk about this after Jesus has come into their heart, because it is much stronger then. But God in his Infinite grace, makes his presence known even in those who deny Him.

Have you ever done anything and then regretted it? Have you ever heard a voice in your head say in your head “that was wrong”, even though it benefited you? The world calls this almost universal experience “conscience”. Christians identify it as the spirit of God at work within them. Since it usually encourages us against our self interest, this voice must logically originate outside of ourself.

 

[citizenzen]

Have you ever done anything and then regretted it? Have you ever heard a voice in your head say in your head “that was wrong”, even though it benefited you? The world calls this almost universal experience “conscience”. Christians identify it as the spirit of God at work within them. Since it usually encourages us against our self interest, this voice must logically originate outside of ourself.

Why do you consider "wrong" acts to be in our self interest? I've found that "good" acts actually feel good. Wrongs acts make me feel bad. So it's in my self interest to do good deeds and not bad.

 

[pattimax]

It's clear through studies of the brain and how injuries and drugs can affect cognition and personality that our brains—or as you imply, "mere chemical reactions"—play the key role.

I am open to the possibility that the brain plays the only role in this process. There is more than enough evidence to support the brain's role as the source for thoughts and feelings.

I am also open to the possibility that consciousness exists independently and our brain acts to tune into, focus and interpret this consciousness. In either case, whether as sole source or conduit of consciousness, thoughts and feelings require a brain.



This is a meaningless question. If the above answer doesn't provide enough information, I'll be happy to address further questions, provided they make sense.

Your response indicates an assumption that everything that happens inside your body is a product solely of your body. You assert that your brain is the source, and possibly plays the only role. In so doing, you have already rejected the possibility that there is a God. You are, apparently, quite certain that there is no superior being to yourself, and that only your opinion, formed within yourself, counts. While asserting that there is no evidence to support the concept of such a superior being, you are confident that you are just such a being.

Stephen J. Gould: “Once you find out that there is no superior wisdom, no superior cause, it is liberating if not exhilarating.”

Aldous Huxley, in 1946, said “I want this world not to have meaning…because a meaningless world frees me to my own erotic and my own political pursuits.”

John 3:19-20 (New King James Version)

19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.


I just read your last post- I think this answers that.

 

[citizenzen]

Your response indicates an assumption that everything that happens inside your body is a product solely of your body.

That would be your assumption, not mine. Of course everything does not happen just "inside" my body. I believe that my "body" [mind] is not merely defined by the boundary of my skin.

 

[pattimax]

That would be your assumption, not mine. Of course everything does not happen just "inside" my body. I believe that my "body" [mind] is not merely defined by the boundary of my skin.

Your labeling my question as “meaningless” because you don’t find or don’t agree with its meaning is the same as labeling your acts as “good” because they make you “feel good”. Feelings are NOT definitions.

Now this is truly meaningless…If a Zen-master asks a meaningless question (koan) and there are no students around to be befuddled, is he still wise?

On the meaningful side, what do you think there is “outside your skin”?

 

[Quahom1]

Why do you consider "wrong" acts to be in our self interest? I've found that "good" acts actually feel good. Wrongs acts make me feel bad. So it's in my self interest to do good deeds and not bad.

Try this one. You go to the store and get gas, and a bunch of groceries. You run up a pretty big tab, but you need the stuff. However, it still puts a dent you your wallet, just the same. Anyway, you get home, put away the groceries, and take your receipt to balance your account, only to find that the cashier, forgot to add the cost of the fuel to your bill. You just got away with $55.00 worth of fuel (it wasn't your fault it was missed, and you didn't realize it at the time either, so you are innocent of any deception), and the cashier's oversite just benefitted you...but something is eating at you inside, because now, you know.

And you start thinking of that cashier trying to balance her cash drawer at the end of her shift, and you know that loss will come out of her paycheck...

Now, through no fault of your own, you benefitted from her error, but leaving things as they are (when you now realize the situation), you also know she will suffer for your gain.

Two choices:

"Too bad for her, you get the gas free and clear, with no legal obligation to compensate for it" (she'd never figure out where her cash till went short, let alone by whom).

OR -

"You go back to the store, bring the receipt and explain to the stunned cashier that she forgot to charge you for the gas." She can't even pull up how much it was because she cleared the computer and re-set the pump. So you tell her how much you pumped and pay her for it. The look on her face is priceless as she thanks you for helping her fix the problem she had no idea she had yet. But her eyes tell a different message..."thank you for your honesty, and not letting me take a fall for this."

Yeah, your wallet is a little bit tighter now, but you gained something even better, because every time you walk into that store, she will remember that you thought of her, first - and you will perceive that emotional warmth from her. You also notice that she pays it (some of that warmth) forward to the next customer, even though she isn't aware of it, and that customer walks out with half a smile on their face, but they don't realize why...

but you do...

v/r

Q

 

[citizenzen]

Your labeling my question as “meaningless” because you don’t find or don’t agree with its meaning is the same as labeling your acts as “good” because they make you “feel good”. Feelings are NOT definitions.

The only question I labelled meaningless was...

Do you think your thoughts and feelings were "installed" at the factory like a car radio?​

Maybe I should have said, "nonsensical". It is a very bizarre way to word the issues that we've been discussing and I have no idea what it means. Perhaps you could rephrase it.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Patti,

What did Gould and Huxley do for this world? Evil? Darkness? No. Any one of their books is filled with more sense and pertinent perspective than any holy book.

 

[citizenzen]

Try this one.

How about this real-world scenario that happened just a two weeks ago...

My wife and I were out of town, having just finished breakfast in a restaurant we will probably never return to again. At the cash register, I looked at my receipt and saw that the waitress has forgotten to include two items that would have added an additional $5.00 to my check.

Instead of letting that omission pass unnoticed, I alerted the waitress, paid the higher bill and based my tip on the higher amount. As we talked she told me that indeed the owners were very strict and she would have been accountable for the money.

That moment of honesty saved the waitress the embarrassment of having to explain the shortage to her boss and some of her wages and it gave me more peace of mind and satisfaction than $5.00 ever could.

 

[Quahom1]

How about this real-world scenario that happened just a two weeks ago...

My wife and I were out of town, having just finished breakfast in a restaurant we will probably never return to again. At the cash register, I looked at my receipt and saw that the waitress has forgotten to include two items that would have added an additional $5.00 to my check.

Instead of letting that omission pass unnoticed, I alerted the waitress, paid the higher bill and based my tip on the higher amount. As we talked she told me that indeed the owners were very strict and she would have been accountable for the money.

That moment of honesty saved the waitress the embarrassment of having to explain the shortage to her boss and some of her wages and it gave me more peace of mind and satisfaction than $5.00 ever could.

Both are "real world" scnerios CZ. I think what Pattimax is pointing out is that there is something inside us that helps us overcome the first thought that, we win, or it isn't a big deal, or it isn't worth our efforts to try to correct. In other words, we choose not to put ourselves first, even when by all rights we could and could legally get away with it, or we shouldn't have to go out of our way to fix someone else's screw up.

The "Golden rule" is still in effect, and alive and well...

 

[pattimax]

Patti,

What did Gould and Huxley do for this world? Evil? Darkness? No. Any one of their books is filled with more sense and pertinent perspective than any holy book.

The Bible changed the world: built hospitals, freed slaves in the western world, started the civil rights movement, built universities, and changed the calendar…

There have been many horrible things done in its name by misguided people who had not actually read it, but this Holy Book is the source of the USA, the basis of the pursuit of liberty, and the origin of compassion in the western world.

Are you saying that Huxley’s novels are more pertinent than the Tao?

 

[citizenzen]

Pattimax is pointing out is that there is something inside...

Pattimax, takes the leap of faith that this is due to a Deity. That is fine for her. I, on the other hand, have not taken that same leap of faith and do not attribute these acts to a deity*. That is fine for me.

I find it interesting that despite our two different viewpoints, these acts of selfless goodness occur nonetheless.





*Until proven otherwise through physical evidence or self-revelation.

 

[Quahom1]

Pattimax, takes the leap of faith that this is due to a Deity. That is fine for her. I, on the other hand, have not taken that same leap of faith and do not attribute these acts to a deity*. That is fine for me.

I find it interesting that despite our two different viewpoints, these acts of selfless goodness occur nonetheless.





*Until proven otherwise through physical evidence or self-revelation.

I don't, considering by your own declaration, you aspire to rise above yourself in your search for zen...

 

[pattimax]

Pattimax, takes the leap of faith that this is due to a Deity. That is fine for her. I, on the other hand, have not taken that same leap of faith and do not attribute these acts to a deity*. That is fine for me.

I find it interesting that despite our two different viewpoints, these acts of selfless goodness occur nonetheless.





*Until proven otherwise through physical evidence or self-revelation.

Reading God's Word and believing Him requires no leaps of faith, just a willingness to understand.

You have disregarded my question... What is outside yourself?

 

[Tao_Equus]

Are you saying that Huxley’s novels are more pertinent than the Tao?

Yes! The Taoist writings are my favourite of them all but even it is too old and too full of nonsense gobbledygook to be of immediate pertinence. Our modern thinkers have built on 4000 years of passed social commentary, give them a bit of credit please. Huxley paints your American dream perfectly though I doubt I would be able to persuade you of that.

 

[citizenzen]

You have disregarded my question... What is outside yourself?

My apologies. I did not mean to disregard your question.

What is outside myself? That needs to be answered in two ways.

In the relative sense, everything is outside. This is how I live in this world. I am hungry and feed myself. I am cold and warm myself. I am tired and rest myself.

In the absolute sense, nothing is outside. This is also how I live in this world. Wisdom is not enclosed inside my head, but is boundless. Compassion is not enclosed inside my heart but is boundless. Life is not enclosed inside my body but is boundless.

What about you pattimax? What is outside your self?

 

[pattimax]

My apologies. I did not mean to disregard your question.

What is outside myself? That needs to be answered in two ways.

In the relative sense, everything is outside. This is how I live in this world. I am hungry and feed myself. I am cold and warm myself. I am tired and rest myself.

In the absolute sense, nothing is outside. This is also how I live in this world. Wisdom is not enclosed inside my head, but is boundless. Compassion is not enclosed inside my heart but is boundless. Life is not enclosed inside my body but is boundless.

What about you pattimax? What is outside your self?

In the absolute sense, and how I live in this world, is that Wisdom is not enclosed in my head, but is contained in the boundless Living God, Creator of the Universe. Compassion is not enclosed in my heart, but is contained in the boundless God who loves me so much that He sent His only Son to die for my sins, so that He could have fellowship with me, not because I am good but because He made me. Life is not enclosed in my body but is given to me as a free gift of grace by God through Jesus Christ. Life is eternal, and the choice we have to make is whether we wish to spend eternity in the light of God or in the darkness of our own "wisdom".
When I am hungry, God feeds me. When I am cold, God warms me. When I am weary, God gives me rest.

 

[pattimax]

Yes! The Taoist writings are my favourite of them all but even it is too old and too full of nonsense gobbledygook to be of immediate pertinence. Our modern thinkers have built on 4000 years of passed social commentary, give them a bit of credit please. Huxley paints your American dream perfectly though I doubt I would be able to persuade you of that.

I was not aware that the Tao was full of gobbeldygook.
Contemporary commentary can certainly help people to relate to the writings of a holy book. Modern Bible commentators do so with great care to neither add to nor take away any of the scripture, so as to prevent it becoming a written game of "telephone". No doubt your modern thinkers preserve the integrity of the Tao as well. Credit where credit is due...

 

[citizenzen]

In the absolute sense, and how I live in this world... When I am hungry, God feeds me. When I am cold, God warms me. When I am weary, God gives me rest.

If you only live in the absolute what is the role you play here?

You might as well just remove the "I" and "me" and say, "When God is hungry, God feeds God. When God is cold, God warms God. When God am weary, God gives God rest."

 

[pattimax]

If you only live in the absolute what is the role you play here?

You might as well just remove the "I" and "me" and say, "When God is hungry, God feeds God. When God is cold, God warms God. When God am weary, God gives God rest."

I am not God. God is not me. This is absolutely true. It is, was, and always will be true.

My role here is similar to the role of the younger son in the tale of the Prodigal Son. I thought I knew better how to run my life; I took control and dissipated my resources on earthly pleasures; I fell to ruin; I chose to return to be a servant in my Father's house. To my surprise, my Good Father restored me to His family, and threw a big party to celebrate my return to life.
I now do everything I can to please God, not out of duty but out of gratitude for what He did for me. I will continue in this role for all of eternity. You?