There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[rodgertutt]

So you are saying that because people always make the best choice for themselves that this somehow equates into their choice of the best being no choice at all.

"Advocates of free will commandeer the word “choice” (and its synonyms) and boldly incorporate the thought of avoidability into the term itself, even though this is actually no part of the meaning of any volitional synonym.

Instead it is merely what most believe to be true concerning human choice.

This extremely common practice is completely unwarranted, and leads to much error. For a choice is simply that which is chosen or selected; man’s opinion as to whether or not choices are avoidable forms no part of the meaning of the word itself and should not be forced into it."
James Coram

 

[rodgertutt]

I'm sorry. I disagree. We can choose what is best for another, despite what we "want" personally. I have seen and done that. Others have done that for me.

This will only occur if that choice is STRONGEST over what we want personally.

God never forces himself on us. He asks us to choose. The oneness is on US, because he made us that way, for his pleasure and delight. He wants us to surprise him, that is why we are not angels...don't try to take that apple from God's eye...

God ALWAYS forces Himslf on us. "We love Him because He first loved us" (1John 4:19). Sooner or later the "FORCE" of God's love will successfully ellicit a loving response from all of His creatures.

THE POWER OF GOD'S LOVE
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

 

[Quahom1]

This will only occur if that choice is STRONGEST over what we want personally.



God ALWAYS forces Himslf on us. "We love Him because He first loved us." Sooner or later the "FORCE" of God's love will successfully ellicit a loving response from all of His creatures.

THE POWER OF GOD'S LOVE
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

Does he sir? I am reminded of the conversation in the garden of Eden, after man skrewed up...

 

[rodgertutt]

Does he sir? I am reminded of the conversation in the garden of Eden, after man skrewed up...

It was God's intention that man "skrew up."
The temporary prevelance of evil and suffering is God's idea.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

From the point of view of the consumation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will look back and understand that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

 

[rodgertutt]

I am, of course speaking from a Christian Universalist point of view.

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
Christian Universalism Articles by Title
Christian Universalism Articles

 

[bob x]

Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.

That's not right. It could be that three of them are false

 

[Quahom1]

It was God's intention that man "skrew up."
The temporary prevelance of evil and suffering is God's idea.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

From the point of view of the consumation of God's plan for the ages of time, everyone will look back and understand that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

CHART OF GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Then by your own reckoning, all is a charade? Again I disagree, and physics will show my reasoning (physics is one of God's laws is it not?).

I have a helicopter that is remotely controlled. It goes up, and goes down as I direct it. It goes to the left or to the right. But then the wind kicks up, and all of the sudden I have to compensate for the wind's deviation of the trajectory that I originally intended for "my helicopter". It surprises me, and or it doesn't. But it does change my original intention, and I have to compensate in order to get to that goal. But then, the wind really kicks up, and I can't control that helicopter, and it crashes.

Now, God may be a great "pilot", but man has to be a willing helicopter to go where God wants him to go. Sometimes, because that helicopter has a "survival" mode programmed into it, it will drop to the ground in self defense, rather than face the wind...despite what the "pilot" wants...Then the "pilot" has to reprogram the helicopter, to "trust" his decisions.

God has to convince us to choose him...

 

[Quahom1]

I am, of course speaking from a Christian Universalist point of view.

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES
Christian Universalism Articles by Title
Christian Universalism Articles

Ah, I see. However, I am not.

 

[rodgertutt]

That's not right. It could be that three of them are false

What I am talking about here Bob is the bibical evidence.
What Gary presents here is his perception of the biblical evidence for universalism.
It's validity can be decided on by examining his arguments.
Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

 

[rodgertutt]

Then by your own reckoning, all is a charade?

Instead of all being a "charade," ALL is of God.

ALL is of God
2Corinthians 5:18

Most Christians are programmed to read "all is of God except the choices of the human will."

God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will
Ephesians 1:11

Now, God may be a great "pilot", but man has to be a willing helicopter to go where God wants him to go.

God imparts the willingness according to His own perfect timing for each individual.
MAN IS NOT A "FREE MORAL AGENT"
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

God has to convince us to choose him...

That I agree with because of Romans 3:10-18

 

[rodgertutt]

Ah, I see. However, I am not a universalist.

No problem.

Most people are not universalists.

Here is a fifteen chapter exposition from a Christian point of view on why I am a universalist.

"A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation. J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective."
Highly Recommended!
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

 

[Quahom1]

Instead of all being a "charade," ALL is of God.

ALL is of God
2Corinthians 5:18

Most Christians are programmed to read "all is of God except the choices of the human will."

God works ALL things according to the counsel of His own will
Ephesians 1:11




God imparts the willingness according to His own perfect timing for each individual.
MAN IS NOT A "FREE MORAL AGENT"
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man




That I agree with because of Romans 3:10-18

But Where is the "convincing"?

I can think of a dozen passages where God comes to woo man to himself...when He is weary of no mankind close to him, so he turns a soft heart man's way, he becomes tender after wounded man...what say you of that? And then what of free will?

I am not fighting you sir. I'm asking questions.

v/r

Q

 

[rodgertutt]

But Where is the "convincing"?

I can think of a dozen passages where God comes to woo man to himself...when He is weary of no mankind close to him, so he turns a soft heart man's way, he becomes tender after wounded man...what say you of that? And then what of free will?

I am not fighting you sir. I'm asking questions.

v/r

Q

The way I see it is that each person is unique.

God will deal with each person in their own unique way.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates (with the use of their "will,") their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

 

[Quahom1]

The way I see it is that each person is unique.

God will deal with each person in their own unique way.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates (with the use of their "will,") their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Fair enough.

 

[Marsh]

It was God's intention that man "skrew up."
The temporary prevelance of evil and suffering is God's idea.

God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

How is God going to fit a person into his plan if that person does not want to fit into his plan? If a person is unable to choose to deviate from God's plan, then isn't the entire plan nonsense? What I've read from your reasoning is that God is going to use the prevalence of evil to teach good, and I agree with that fully. However, to then say that God will fit everyone into the plan in a positive way turns the entire teaching aspect of the plan into a farce, because those who want to deviate from the plan never actually had a chance to deviate from the plan, which means they never had a chance to learn why they should conform with the plan.

I'm a high school teacher. There's no way that I would ever begin a new semester with the idea that by the end of the course, I'll figure out a way for all of them to get an A+, because I know that an A+ isn't the goal of every student in the class.

 

[rodgertutt]

How is God going to fit a person into his plan if that person does not want to fit into his plan?

God will impart the "want to" to everyone in conjunction with the way He wants to fit them into His special plan for each unique individual.

Until God imparts the "want to," everyone will remain in the condition of Romans 3:10-18.

Martin Luther's THE BONDAGE OF THE WILL is so good on this subject
The Bondage of the Will

The will of no one can defeat God's intention to eventually save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.
"God will have all men to be saved" (1Tim. 2:4)
MAN IS NOT A FREE MORAL AGENT
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man

 

[Marsh]

God will impart the "want to" to everyone in conjunction with the way He wants to fit them into His special plan for each unique individual.

Then why didn't God cease creation with the animals? Animals do God's will; the "want to" is ingrained into their instincts.

Here's what I don't get: God's going to impart "want to" into people who otherwise wouldn't want to do what he wants them to do. Sounds to me like God is second-rate, if his ways alone aren't enough to convince people to want to follow them. Sounds to me like God is taking the easy way out; rather than to fight evil, he's just going to flick a switch and make people turn away from it, whether it's their intention or not.

Sounds to me like Christ died for nothing, too; if God's going to impart "want to" into everyone, then Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary. Hmmmm... now it sounds like God is a jerk, because he sent his son to die a horrible death that was unnecessary, because he fully intended to flick the switch and impart "want to" into wicked people the whole time.

Sounds to me like God is running a two-bit operation here...

 

[rodgertutt]

Then why didn't God cease creation with the animals? Animals do God's will; the "want to" is ingrained into their instincts.

God created man to temporarily involve them in a specific quota of evil and suffering that will fit them into His master plan in their own unique way.
Looking back from the consummation of God's plan for the ages of time,
after God has transformed all evil and suffering, everyone will understand that it was better that everything happened the way that it did.
CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

Here's what I don't get: God's going to impart "want to" into people who otherwise wouldn't want to do what he wants them to do. Sounds to me like God is second-rate, if his ways alone aren't enough to convince people to want to follow them. Sounds to me like God is taking the easy way out; rather than to fight evil, he's just going to flick a switch and make people turn away from it, whether it's their intention or not.

According to God's perfect timing for each individual God will CAUSE everyone to turn away from evil.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

Sounds to me like Christ died for nothing, too; if God's going to impart "want to" into everyone, then Jesus' sacrifice was unnecessary. Hmmmm... now it sounds like God is a jerk, because he sent his son to die a horrible death that was unnecessary, because he fully intended to flick the switch and impart "want to" into wicked people the whole time.
Sounds to me like God is running a two-bit operation here...

Reasoning like yours, and other similar reasoning too, are responded to here.
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
Good news of God's love for all mankind - find it here at Tentmaker
and here
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation
Quick Find: Links to Information on Hell and Universal Salvation

Actually God is running a FIRST CLASS operation.
Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved, INCLUDING THEIR STUBBORN WILL.

“That we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.”
Eph. 1:12
Why do we trust in Christ when we do trust in Him?

HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE by James Coram (online reading)
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each of the seventeen chapters is not the chapter itself.
You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

 

[Marsh]

Yeah, thanks for all the links. I'll be sure to check them all out...

 

[rodgertutt]

Yeah, thanks for all the links. I'll be sure to check them all out...

Here's a post without links.

When I think of “free” will, the definition of it that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

IMO this cannot be perceive as "free" will.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose.

The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time.

Consequently, in both cases IMO, "free" will not only does not exist, but cannot exist.