There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

bob x said:
None of the possibilities were choicest, none of them were choicer than any others, until we chose. So it is incorrect to say "We chose option A because it was choicest", since it was not true that "A was choicest" before the choice happened. The choice could have been "option B" instead, after which we would say "B was choicest".

A man's choices are not determined by anything but the choice itself.

He is mistaken about inanimate objects as well.

It only shows that you STILL don't even hear what I am saying to you.
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I hear what you are saying.
I totally disagree with what you are saying.

The fact that we chose a certain thing demonstrates that we wanted that choice MORE than any other choice.
We always, without exception, choose what we want the MOST at any given point in time.
The strongest influences on our brain CAUSED us to choose what we chose.
It is not even possible that we could have chosen anything else.
Therefore there is no such a thing as "free" will.
 
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citizenzen said:
That is not the lie that I was referring to.

Even though you believe that people are not responsible for their actions you lie to others because you act as if they are in the hope of manipulating their choices in the future. You lie to others.
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It is not a lie because choices in the future can in fact be manipulated by experiences of the past. Past experiences CAUSE us to choose differently in the future.

citizenzen said:
I'll bet you also lie to yourself. Because even though you say you believe that people aren't responsible for their actions, I'll bet that you still feel inside as if they are. If a person cuts you off on the road and almost hits your car I highly doubt that brush off their act and calmly say, "They couldn't help themselves."
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Actually, that's exactly what I say to myself, believe it or not.

citizenzen said:
If your wife (if you have one) had an affair would you maintain your equanimity knowing that when she was in the throes of passion with another man that she wasn't responsible for her actions? Say yes and you're not just lying to yourself, but to everyone who reads your post as well.
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My wife and I have been very happily married for 48 years.
I would be crushed if she were to be unfaithful.
But yes, I still would realize that was the only thing she could have done at the time since it was the STRONGEST influence.
 
citizenzen said:
How can you disagree with what I'm saying?

I'm not responsible for what I'm saying.

God is.

You are disagreeing with God.
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Even though a person is not responsible for the way they think because they are responding to the STRONGEST influence, we can still disagree with the way other people think.

You are quite right that God is responsible for EVERYTHING.
God has locked everyone up in a lifetime sequence of choices that can only be made in the direction of the strongest influences.

Therefore there is no such a thing as "free" will.
 
rodgertutt said:
Even though a person is not responsible for the way they think because they are responding to the STRONGEST influence, we can still disagree with the way other people think.
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so I can turn in front of you on the highway, putting your life and your loved ones in jeopardy and you'll think calmly, "he was not responsible for his actions."

But if God speaks through me and you don't like what God says, "You'll 'totally disagree'". Why the different reactions Rodger? Is it a flaw in your philosophy, or just in you personally?

And since you're not responsible for your your flaws, that must mean it's a flaw in God.

Ouch.
 
citizenzen said:
so I can turn in front of you on the highway, putting your life and your loved ones in jeopardy and you'll think calmly, "he was not responsible for his actions."
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Yes, that is what I think, minus the "calmly" part because for a few moments I am scared.

citizenzen said:
But if God speaks through me and you don't like what God says, "You'll 'totally disagree'". Why the different reactions Rodger? Is it a flaw in your philosophy, or just in you personally?
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Whatever God does is right, whether I like it or not.

citizenzen said:
And since you're not responsible for your your flaws, that must mean it's a flaw in God.
Ouch.
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There are no "flaws" in God even though He is completely responsible for the flaws in His creation.
 
rodgertutt said:
There are no "flaws" in God even though He is completely responsible for the flaws in His creation.
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So how can you disagree with Him?

Why aren't you're responses to my posts the same as that of the errant driver, "He is not responsible for what he does."

And if you're trying to manipulate me in some future sense, aren't you just trying to manipulate God?

What arrogance!

You really are a piece of work, Mr. Tutt!
 
citizenzen said:
So how can you disagree with Him?
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I don't disagree with God.

citizenzen said:
Why aren't you're responses to my posts the same as that of the errant driver, "He is not responsible for what he does."
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They are the same.

citizenzen said:
And if you're trying to manipulate me in some future sense, aren't you just trying to manipulate God?
What arrogance!
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I'm not trying to manipulate you. You will believe whatever the strongest influences on your mind CAUSE you to believe.

citizenzen said:
You really are a piece of work, Mr. Tutt!
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All of us are a unique "piece of work." And when God gets finished with each "piece of work," the end result will bring glory to Himself and blessing to everyone else too.

GOD'S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.
 
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citizenzen said:
Yet not responsible for our own actions.
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That is correct. We are the work of God.
God imposes accountablity on everyone for good and wise ends, even though they are not responsible for their own actions.

The idea that it would not be "right" for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE (WHAT WE WANT MOST), ALL OF THE TIME.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
 
citizenzen said:
So your God's a sadist?

ick!
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A sadist causes suffering because it causes them pleasure.

God causes suffering because He has the intention of transforming all suffering into something better for everyone that it happened.

BTW, God is also responsible for sadists.
 
Right now, the strongest influence in turning me against God is Mr. Tutt.

Since I'm not responsible for thinking or writing that, it makes me wonder why God hates Himself?
 
citizenzen said:
Right now, the strongest influence in turning me against God is Mr. Tutt.
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The onus is entirely on God whether or not you believe in Him, and also what you think of Him.

Jesus Christ is my God, and here is what I think of Him.

KNOWING THE REAL JESUS
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus

Jesus doesn't hate Himself. Sooner or later you are going to understand that it was better for you that you temporarily could not believe in Him.
 
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rodgertutt said:
The onus is entirely on God whether or not you believe in Him, and also what you think of Him.
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God apparently doesn't want me to click on any of your links.

God thinks you're just a big waste of His time.
 
citizenzen said:
God apparently doesn't want me to click on any of your links.
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You will click on one only if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to.

citizenzen said:
God thinks you're just a big waste of His time.
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No one is a waste of God's time.
THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS
The Restitution of All Things: There Is One God; The Lord Our God Is One; All Things Created By God; All Things Created In Christ; All Things Out Of Him; The Unfragmented One; All Things Through Him; All Things Into Him; Restitution
 
rodgertutt said:
You will click on one only if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to.
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I believe you mean that God will only click on one if only the strongest influence on God's mind causes God to.

Just what part of "not responsible" don't you understand?
 
You understand that there is no reason why rodger has to believe what he does, nor is there anything which could determine that he would stop believing it. He believes it because he freely chooses to.
 
citizenzen said:
I believe you mean that God will only click on one if only the strongest influence on God's mind causes God to.

Just what part of "not responsible" don't you understand?
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Everything HAS to happen the way that it does, including all of our attempts to assist it, or prevent it from happening.

Everything you do is what God wants you to do within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will, which is what MUST occur, including violating His PRECEPTIVE (not perceptive) will, which is how we should ideally behave, e.g. "the golden rule."

You think you are doing what you are doing with your "free" will.
But you are doing it because of the STRONGEST influences on your mind which are the REASONS why you PREFER to do what you choose to do the MOST, i.e. more than doing anything else.

Contrary to what Bob says, your choosing does not make an influence the strongest one. It is the other way around. The strength of the influences make up the REASONS why you choose what you want to choose the MOST, more than you want to choose something else.
 
bob x said:
You understand that there is no reason why rodger has to believe what he does, nor is there anything which could determine that he would stop believing it. He believes it because he freely chooses to.
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The "reason" I believe what I believe is due to my research on the subject which became the STRONGEST influence that persuaded my mind of the validity of the concepts, the combined effect of which convinces my will of the reasons why I should choose that point of view.

e.g.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice
and
CHOICE AND DEITY
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
 
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