There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[rodgertutt]

MORE RESEARCH MATERIAL

Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
and
Free Will and the oh well creed
and
YouTube - Crack O' Dawn Report: The Free Will of Ronald McDonald
and
aboutfreewillnote
and
The Spirit of the Word - Free Moral Agency
and
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter of this last link is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

 

[bananabrain]

you know, asserting something more vehemently, when your argument boils down to confidence in your own opinion, is not exactly going to be persuasive. philosophically speaking, this isn't terribly a impressive position you're building here, i don't care how many links you post.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[citizenzen]

you know, asserting something more vehemently, when your argument boils down to confidence in your own opinion, is not exactly going to be persuasive.

This discussion would have been much shorter had Tutt acknowledged at any point that his position was based on faith. Nobody here (except for Tutt, it seems) is out to change anybody else's faith. I would never suggest that a Christian should take up Buddhism, as each faith, if applied well, can lead an adherent to enlightenment or salvation. But despite numerous efforts to get Tutt to see his POV as an article of faith he's responded...

Nope, that's not faith, it's fact.

Tutt's only aim is to proselytize and indoctrinate.

It's not only unpersuasive, it's repellent.

 

[rodgertutt]

you know, asserting something more vehemently, when your argument boils down to confidence in your own opinion, is not exactly going to be persuasive. philosophically speaking, this isn't terribly a impressive position you're building here, i don't care how many links you post.
b'shalom bananabrain

I've got no problem with what you said above.

You won't check out the links unless the STRONGEST influences on your mind CAUSE you to want to check out the links MORE than not checking them out.

 

[rodgertutt]

Tutt's only aim is to proselytize and indoctrinate.

WRONG!

My only aim is to guide Christian people who are unable to love an endless-hell god to Biblical evidence that the will of no creature can defeat God's plan to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it temporarily prevailed.

That is why I love to post links like the following

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES

Christian Universalism Articles by Title

Christian Universalism Articles

I realize that if you don't even believe in God or the Bible then what I say is not even relevant to you.

You will believe (or not believe) whatever the strongest influences on your mind persuade you to believe (or not believe).

 

[bananabrain]

at the moment the STRONGEST influences on my mind CAUSE me to want to not bother continuing this conversation.

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[Quahom1]

WRONG!

My only aim is to guide Christian people who are unable to love an endless-hell god to Biblical evidence that the will of no creature can defeat God's plan to eventually transform all evil and suffering into something better that it temporarily prevailed.

That is why I love to post links like the following

TWO TREASURE HOUSES OF CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST ARTICLES

Christian Universalism Articles by Title

Christian Universalism Articles

I realize that if you don't even believe in God or the Bible then what I say is not even relevant to you.

You will believe whatever the strongest influences on your mind persuade you to believe.

Roger, Hell is a place of our own making. If God is everything, and we "choose" to turn away from God, then we turn towards nothing, absense, emptiness, loneliness, banishment, Hell.

Being a social being, man can not survive without contact, especially the contact of our God. Without God, we make the choice to DIE, cease to exist, be no more. We put ourselves in Hell...God does not.

My two cents.

Q

 

[rodgertutt]

at the moment the STRONGEST influences on my mind CAUSE me to want to not bother continuing this conversation.

b'shalom

bananabrain

That certainly is understandable.

Shalom to you too!

 

[rodgertutt]

Rodger, Hell is a place of our own making. If God is everything, and we "choose" to turn away from God, then we turn towards nothing, absense, emptiness, loneliness, banishment, Hell.

Being a social being, man can not survive without contact, especially the contact of our God. Without God, we make the choice to DIE, cease to exist, be no more. We put ourselves in Hell...God does not.

My two cents.

Q

Just in case anyone cares to check out a different point of view within a Christian context.

In his introduction, Gary Amirault wrote

ANNIHILATION?

"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."

And the link to the entire exposition is
Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

 

[Quahom1]

Just in case anyone cares to check out a different point of view within a Christian context.

In his introduction, Gary Amirault wrote

ANNIHILATION?

"When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false."

And the link to the entire exposition is
Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory

Sir, just because I don't have a PHD behind my name, does not make me stupid, nor my thoughts invalid. My relationship with my God is a personal one, and I "know" what would happen to me if I were to turn away from God, particularly since I know God personally and intimately. I would cease to exist, and it would be my own "damn" fault.

That is where free will comes into play. I take responsiblity for my own actions. I write my fate, and God will accomodate me, to his chagrin, or his pleasure and delight. He is that magnanimous, after all...

 

[rodgertutt]

That is where free will comes into play. I take responsiblity for my own actions. I write my fate, and God will accomodate me, to his chagrin, or his pleasure and delight. He is that magnanimous, after all...

Since we always, without exception, choose whatever we want the MOST based on our reaction to the combination of influences to which we are exposed, there not only is no "free" will, there cannot even be "free" will.

Every choice we ever made was the only choice we could have made at that particluar point in time, all influences considered.

 

[Quahom1]

Since we always, without exception, choose whatever we want the MOST based on our reaction to the combination of influences to which we are exposed, there not only is no "free" will, there cannot even be "free" will.

Every choice we ever made was the only choice we could have made at that particluar point in time, all influences considered.

You know what? You are absolutely correct. My "will" has a price. And inorder for me to effect my "will", I have to pay that price. So it isn't "free"...

However it is a choice for me to pay for in order to act on it. Once I pay for it, the will becomes "mine". I own it.

 

[rodgertutt]

You know what? You are absolutely correct. My "will" has a price. And inorder for me to effect my "will", I have to pay that price. So it isn't "free"...

However it is a choice for me to pay for in order to act on it. Once I pay for it, the will becomes "mine". I own it.

What I mean by "free" will is the idea that you could have chosen differently than you did.

No one could have chosen differently than they did, therefore there is no "free" will. Everyone HAD to choose what they wanted the MOST.
No other choice could have been made.

Everyone always chooses whatever they perceive to be "choicest" at any given point in time.

 

[shawn]

So you are saying that because people always make the best choice for themselves that this somehow equates into their choice of the best being no choice at all.
Wow.
That is one of the most convoluted strings of logic I have ever heard.
Give the man a cigar

 

[Quahom1]

What I mean by "free" will is the idea that you could have chosen differently than you did.

No one could have chosen differently than they did, therefore there is no "free" will. Everyone HAD to choose what they wanted the MOST.
No other choice could have been made.

Everyone always chooses whatever they perceive to be "choicest" at any given point in time.

I have given up love, when I did not WANT to give it up. I would have gone through the worst of times to keep that love. God, in the guise of a good friend asked me if that was what I really wanted. I said yes. Then God asked me to trust him, and he would give me something even better. So I chose to trust him, rather than trust my own desires. It was with "jaundiced eye", mind you, but I walked the walk (my choice). Fake it 'till you make it, as I've been told.

God's promise was fulfilled, because I chose to trust him, instead of self.

 

[rodgertutt]

So you are saying that because people always make the best choice for themselves that this somehow equates into their choice of the best being no choice at all.

No, I'm not saying that.
Of course they are making a "choice."

What I am saying is that every choice they made in the past was the only choice they could have made.

Their will was not "free" to make any other choice.
They HAD to choose what they wanted the MOST.

 

[rodgertutt]

I have given up love, when I did not WANT to give it up.

It is true that, to a certain extent, you did not want to "give up love."

But it is also true that by actually giving up love you demonstrated that you actually did WANT to give up love MORE than you did not want to give up love, otherwise you would not have done it.

We always choose what we want MOST.

 

[Quahom1]

No, I'm not saying that.
Of course they are making a "choice."

What I am saying is that every choice they made in the past was the only choice they could have made.

Their will was not "free" to make any other choice.
They HAD to choose what they wanted the MOST.

How about this. For every human being on earth there are choices, times every human being on earth. And God, being a God of all time, all places, all things, can see every choice a man and men can and will make. That leaves for a very expansive "multiverse", wherein here one chooses to do this, but there, one chooses to do other... But God sees it all. if you accept this possiblility, then your philosphy is sound, and I can agree with you.

 

[rodgertutt]

How about this. For every human being on earth there are choices, times every human being on earth. And God, being a God of all time, all places, all things, can see every choice a man and men can and will make. That leaves for a very expansive "multiverse", wherein here one chooses to do this, but there, one chooses to do other... But God sees it all. if you accept this possiblility, then your philosphy is sound, and I can agree with you.

There is only one choice that anyone can make and that is what they prefer MOST.

The will is only "free" to choose what we perceive to be the "choicest" choice.

We cannot choose anything else.

No one has the power of contrary choice, i.e. the ability to choose what they do not prefer MOST.

 

[Quahom1]

There is only one choice that anyone can make and that is what they prefer MOST.

The will is only "free" to choose what we perceive to be the "choicest" choice.

We cannot choose anything else.

No one has the power of contrary choice, i.e. the ability to choose what they do not prefer MOST.

I'm sorry. I disagree. We can choose what is best for another, despite what we "want" personally. I have seen and done that. Others have done that for me. God never forces himself on us. He asks us to choose. The oneness is on US, because he made us that way, for his pleasure and delight. He wants us to surprise him, that is why we are not angels...don't try to take that apple from God's eye...