seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
No, you have not demonstrated that the particular choice you made at any given second was the only one you could have made at that particular moment. Try again.
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'
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No, you have not demonstrated that the particular choice you made at any given second was the only one you could have made at that particular moment. Try again.
R
rodgertutt
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IMO I have demonstrated it.
I believe it is demonstrated by this statement.
Each choice you make is made either on the basis of you determining what you prefer the MOST at that split second in time, or by responding to your overwhelming emotions.
In either case, it is the only choice you can make at that split second in time.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on either your "overwhelming mindless emotions," or on the evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred MOST to make AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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citizenzen
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No rodger, you haven't.
Just as you've found no argument to convince you, you're argument hasn't convinced us.
It's almost as if no argument could convince either side... as if we had both made up our minds before a single word was even written.
It's curious how that happens.
bob x
Well-Known Member
And AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, likewise, there are other reasons which might incline you to a different choice. Nothing in the universe makes any of the competing reasons decisively "stronger" than any other except your free choice to regard it so. Until the choice is made, one can only assess the relative "strengths" of the different reasons in a probabilistic fashion, that option A is "most likely" to be chosen, but a free agent can always surprise you and choose what, by any objective measure, was the "less likely" option B, and there is nothing that changes the reasons for B from "weaker" to "stronger" except the free will.
R
rodgertutt
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Since there is no such a thing as a "free" agent, your argument is irrelevant.
Each choice you make is made either on the basis of you determining what you prefer the MOST at that split second in time, or by responding to your overwhelming emotions.
In either case, it is the only choice you can make at that split second in time.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on either your "overwhelming mindless emotions," or on the evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred MOST to make AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Please list all of the different elemental factors involved in making a choice, and then demonstrate the mechanism by which they intertwine in such a way that there is only one possible predetermined outcome for a given space-time coordinate. Then disprove all other possible explanations and/or interpretations. Empirical data would be nice.
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rodgertutt
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Please list all of the different elemental factors involved in making a choice, and then demonstrate the mechanism by which they intertwine in such a way that there is only one possible predetermined outcome for a given space-time coordinate. Then disprove all other possible explanations and/or interpretations. Empirical data would be nice.
Insead of doing that am going to say this.
Due to influences from within and without, a man may well change in the next moment from what he is in the present moment, but in any certain moment his deeds are simply the outflowings of his heart (Prov.4:23b). They reflect what is presently choice to him; that is, they constitute his true preferences, however excellent, or awful, they may be.
Though we do what we want, according to our own choice, and therefore act voluntarily, we cannot always want what we want. That is, we cannot truly want, in a decisive sense, what we want, simply in an abstract sense, so long as there are other things that we want more, in a decisive sense, than we want the ideals for which we abstractly long.
Of course what those who advocate “free will” actually mean to stand for by means of this expression is the notion that men have the power of contrary choice: Even though, in fact, we chose as we did, we could have chosen otherwise. That is, we could have done so at that time. It is not contended (nor is it disputed) that, hypothetically and by itself, we might have chosen otherwise. That is not the idea at all. Instead, it is claimed that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise.
THAT IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on either your "overwhelming mindless emotions," or on the evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred MOST to make AT THAT POINT IN TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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citizenzen
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Assuming this is true (assuming)... What happens in those moments when our decisive desires match our abstract desires?
R
rodgertutt
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A "decisive" desire is one that we actually make, contrasted with an abstract desire that we don't make because we obviously prefer to make the decisive desire MORE because we actually do make it.
In other words, an abstract desire, by very nature of its definition, NEVER matches our decisive desire.
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bob x
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You, and only you, determine that. There is nothing about the competing reasons on offer which determine which one you decide to go with. One can objectively measure which of the reasons are "stronger" and it is more probable that you will go with the "stronger" reasons, but you are free to go with the objectively "weaker" ones, if you decide that they are "stronger" for you. That is not determined by the reasons themselves, but by you, freely.
It is the only choice you do make, but you could have chosen the other.
citizenzen
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Never? You are a pessimist, aren't you Mr. Tutt?
What desires motivate compassionate and selfless acts then?
R
rodgertutt
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You could not have chosen any other choice but the one that you decided you preferred the MOST.
You go with the stronGEST reasonings that CAUSE you to prefer one choice over another. You are not "free" to choose a "weaker" reasoning because if you tried to do that it would prove to be the strongest reasoning after all.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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R
rodgertutt
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Unless we are selfish individuals, the plight of the one who needs compassion CAUSES us to act compassionately.
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rodgertutt
Guest
I don't think this description of what I believe can be perceived as pessimism.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
R
rodgertutt
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THERE IS NO SUCH A THING AS "FREE" WILL
Of all the choices you ever made, it was absolutely imposible that you could have made any other choice than the one you determined you preferred MOST after considering all the REASONS why you decided to make that choice.
You chose what you chose because the reasons for choosing what you chose CAUSED you to prefer that choice the MOST.
At that point in time it was impossible to choose anything else.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on your evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred to make AT THAT TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
Of all the choices you ever made, it was absolutely imposible that you could have made any other choice than the one you determined you preferred MOST after considering all the REASONS why you decided to make that choice.
You chose what you chose because the reasons for choosing what you chose CAUSED you to prefer that choice the MOST.
At that point in time it was impossible to choose anything else.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on your evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred to make AT THAT TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."
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citizenzen
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So in your world compassion and selflessness doesn't exist within anybody?!
You certainly couldn't call yourself Buddhist.
bob x
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So you admit, there is nothing about the reasons themselves which determine which is "strongest": you, and only you, CAUSE one of the reasons to become strongest, when you, freely, choose it.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Dontcha just love circular reasoning?
R
rodgertutt
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So in your world compassion and selflessness doesn't exist within anybody?!
You certainly couldn't call yourself Buddhist.
"Compassion and selflessness," (embodied in THE GOLDEN RULE) are virtues that are learned through life's experiences. Manifesting God's love will sooner or later become the strongest influence in CAUSING us to decide what choices we prefer to make the MOST.
Some learn more quickly than others that hard-heartedness and selfishness are counter-productive.
From a Christian universalsist point of view, here is what God's love is really like.
GOD'S LOVE THROUGH US IN ACTION
God is Love: God Is Love! The Power of God's Love; Love Your Enemies! Knowing The Real Jesus
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rodgertutt
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What I "admit" is that the reasons CAUSE you to choose as you do, so that you are not "free" to choose anything else but what you perceive is the choice that you prefer MOST at that particular split-second in time.
A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, you might have had other reasons why you would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice you made was the only one you possibly could have made based on your evaluation of what choice you perceived you preferred to make AT THAT TIME.
"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."