There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[rodgertutt]

Dontcha just love circular reasoning?

STRAIT LINE REASONING

1. The start of a strait line (no circle) made up of a variety of reasons why we should make a particular choice instead of a different one.

2. The middle of the strait line where we determine which choice we prefer the MOST.

3. The end of the strait line where we actually make the choice that we have determined we prefer the MOST after having contemplated the various reasons for making one choice over another.

After we have determined which choice we prefer the MOST, it is not even possible to choose anything else because we will demonstrate that we preferred it the MOST at that particular split-second in time by actually choosing it.

A few seconds before, or a few seconds afterwards, we might have had other reasons why we would not make that choice.
But AT THAT PARTICULAR SPLIT SECOND IN TIME, the choice we made was the only one we possibly could have made based on our evaluation of what choice we perceived we preferred to make AT THAT TIME.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[shawn]

The middle of the strait line where we determine which choice we prefer the MOST.
.......After we have determined which choice we prefer the MOST........

So we determine which choice we prefer the most....
Of course.
Called free will, where one looks at the options and then decides which is best.
That is what we do..... as sorting machines.


You are awfully obsessed with your doctrine of no free will there old timer.

 

[rodgertutt]

So we determine which choice we prefer the most....
Of course.
Called free will, where one looks at the options and then decides which is best.
That is what we do..... as sorting machines.

But we determine it on the basis of the reasons that are having the strongest influence on our mind to CAUSE us to prefer to choose one choice the MOST rather than another.

The reason I don't call that "free" will is because it is not even possible to choose anything else except what we determine that we want to choose the MOST rather than any other choice.

Our choices are dictated by what we want the MOST, and we cannot choose anything else.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[shawn]

That's nice. (insert sarcastic emoticon here)
Rodger.
Glad for you that you are so infatuated with your ideas.

 

[rodgertutt]

You are awfully obsessed with your doctrine of no free will there old timer.

Quite true. And so are many other thinkers on the internet.
Not that it makes us "right," but there are many on the internet who reject the idea of "free" will.

Here's another one from a universalist Christian point of view.
ABOUT FREE WILL
http://home.earthlink.net/~btodd2/freewillnote.htmlaboutfreewillnote

 

[rodgertutt]

Twice now, citizen has asked me what is the practical advantage of rejecting the concept of "free" will. I can't remember how I answered.

But as a universalist Christian (rather than a eternal-hell Christian) the advantage is to be able to believe that no will can defeat God's intention to eventually bring unending positive blessings to everyone through the temporary interplay between good and evil.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them in the first place, He will eradicate them from existence.

THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
biblical studies: The Problem of Evil and the Judgments of God - Contents

Notice chapter 13, THE PHANTOM OF FREE WILL

 

[citizenzen]

But we determine it on the basis of the reasons that are having the strongest influence on our mind to CAUSE us to prefer to choose one choice the MOST rather than another.

A perfect description of free will.

Your "strait" reasoning would be like me saying I don't believe in God, but post after post describing an eternal, omniscient creator who passes judgement on the souls of all beings.

But it's not God.

But as a universalist Christian (rather than a eternal-hell Christian) the advantage is to be able to believe that no will can defeat God's intention to eventually bring unending positive blessings to everyone through the temporary interplay between good and evil.

Is God eternal? Is God all-powerful? How could any transient will defeat eternal and all-powerful? It sounds like you doubt God. I don't think She'd appreciate that.

 

[citizenzen]

STRAIT LINE REASONING

strait – adjective

narrow; affording little space; confined in area.​

Rodger, I'd say you hit the nail on the head with that one.

 

[rodgertutt]

A perfect description of free will.

Since NO OTHER choice could have been made than the one you did make, the will was only "free" to choose what you preferred the MOST.

Is God eternal? Is God all-powerful? How could any transient will defeat eternal and all-powerful? It sounds like you doubt God. I don't think She'd appreciate that.

No, I don't doubt God, and here's why.
THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. Knoch
biblical studies: The Problem of Evil and the Judgments of God - Contents

Notice chapter 13, THE PHANTOM OF FREE WILL

 

[rodgertutt]

strait – adjective
narrow; affording little space; confined in area.
Rodger, I'd say you hit the nail on the head with that one.

Our will has as much choosing "space" as the strongest influences on our mind dictate.

No more, and no less.

 

[bob x]

Our will has as much choosing "space" as the strongest influences on our mind dictate.

No more, and no less.

And that space generally consists of a few different options, none of which is caused to be the "strongest" by anything except our free choice.

 

[rodgertutt]

And that space generally consists of a few different options, none of which is caused to be the "strongest" by anything except our free choice.

The only choice we can choose is whatever our reasonings are having the most persuasive influences on our mind to choose.
We cannot choose anything else.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[Marsh]

Your non-free "will" will only give me an answer if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to WANT to give me an answer MORE than not wanting to give me an answer.

It makes perfect sense to ask such a queston, because if the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to want to ask me, more than not wanting to ask me, you WILL in fact ask me that question, not because your will is "free," but because the strongest influence on your mind CAUSED you to ask it.

No, it does not make perfect sense to ask this question, and I'm pretty sure that you just blew your own argument out of the water.

The keys to your argument are:
1. People don't have free will; they act as they are most strongly influenced to act.
2. God is ultimately influencing these acts for the sake of good.

And you just finished saying that:
1. If I kick you, it's because I'm being influenced to kick you.
2. If I answer you or don't answer you, it's because I'm being influenced to answer or not answer.

Well, here it is: Roger, I am going to kick you in the sack sometime within the next 23 hours....

And in 23 hours from now (3:52 EST), you'll be proven a fool.

See y'all tomorrow!

 

[citizenzen]

 

[rodgertutt]

Well, here it is: Rodger, I am going to kick you in the sack sometime within the next 23 hours....
And in 23 hours from now (3:52 EST), you'll be proven a fool.
See y'all tomorrow!

Whatever the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to do, you will in fact, do.

Whether it be to "kick me in the sack," or refrain from kicking me in the sack due to possible negative consequenses, you will do whichever choice you want to do the MOST.

Your will is only "free" to do what you want to do the MOST. And what you actually do, (or do not do), demonstrates what you wanted to do the MOST.

This is ALWAYS true.

 

[Gatekeeper]

Whatever the strongest influence on your mind CAUSES you to do, you will in fact, do.

Whether it be to "kick me in the sack," or refrain from kicking me in the sack due to possible negative consequenses, you will do whichever choice you want to do the MOST.

Your will is only "free" to do what you want to do the MOST. And what you actually do, (or do not do), demonstrates what you wanted to do the MOST.

This is ALWAYS true.

Are we free to desire one thing above another? If not, how do our desires manifest and change if not from self examination, and from life experience itself? I think we each have an opportunity to change who what we desire, but not all are wise enough to learn from their past and present mistakes.

GK

 

[rodgertutt]

Are we free to desire one thing above another?

Yes, we are. In fact that is why we choose what we do choose.

I think we each have an opportunity to change who what we desire,

That is true too.

but not all are wise enough to learn from their past and present mistakes. GK

Speaking from a universalist Christian point of view it's only a matter of time till everyone learns everything that God wants them to learn from their involvement in evil and suffering.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

 

[bob x]

The only choice we can choose is whatever our reasonings are having the most persuasive influences on our mind to choose.

You are viewing the mental process as a purely mechanical one, in which the competing reasons are measured on a persuade-o-meter, and whatever gets the highest score automatically wins. But actually, the only such measures of strength are insufficient to cause a particular outcome: what scores higher might or might not prevail; only our free choice causes one of the reasons to become the most persuasive: it was not so before we decided to regard it so.

 

[rodgertutt]

only our free choice causes one of the reasons to become the most persuasive: it was not so before we decided to regard it so.

It's the other way around.
We don't "decide" to regard the reasons persuasive.
They just ARE (more or less) persuasive depending on the strength of the effect they have on our mind.
Those reasons convince our mind and CAUSE us to choose as we do.
We are only "free" to choose whatever our reasons for choosing convince us that we prefer to choose the MOST at any given point in time.

It is absoluitely impossible to choose what we do not prefer the MOST.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[rodgertutt]

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

IMO this cannot be perceive as "free" will.