Indeed. God controls all things...but does not author evil as we know it.
There is no such thing as 'Free Will'
- Thread starter Azure24
- Start date
Folks, let's get something straight. Even the computer you are using to read this post, has randomness built in that the Creator can't control. The CPU chip that is the brain of your computer, is not even fully understood by the manufacturer or designer. They do not know how it does what it does, only that it does it. And since it works, they leave the basic design alone. The "sequential order" thing? They tossed that out the window, years ago. And now with "dual core" and "bubble chip" CPUs? All bets are off.
It isn't even 2060, and we have "duo-tronic" memory and CPUs, sitting on our desks at home. "Big Blue" from IBM, can beat one of the greatest chess players. BUT!!!, that is all it can do, while Kasperov goes on with his life. His choice...he ultimately wins, because he can choose what is next for him, while a computer sits in silence and waits to be tasked once again...
v/r
Q
It isn't even 2060, and we have "duo-tronic" memory and CPUs, sitting on our desks at home. "Big Blue" from IBM, can beat one of the greatest chess players. BUT!!!, that is all it can do, while Kasperov goes on with his life. His choice...he ultimately wins, because he can choose what is next for him, while a computer sits in silence and waits to be tasked once again...
v/r
Q
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
There is certainly merit to what you say, Q. I think there is also the element of reasonable doubt, particularly when dealing with what amounts to a translation of a translation of a translation.
I stumbled across a favorite old passage that I want to use to illustrate:
Hebrew for H4820:
deceit, treachery
This I hope helps to illustrate what I have pointed out several times in the past about the limitations of the English translation. If the word had been "crafty" or something perhaps modern English readers would get a little bit closer to the original meaning, but as it stands in Elizabethan English it stills demands a bit of translation to better fully develop the intended meaning.
I sense this translational confusion may play a significant role in many of our denominational misunderstandings. Indeed, I have even seen where some denominations deliberately (although perhaps legitimately ignorantly) play up an incorrect translation.
Don't forget, the italicized words are not even in the original, they are inserted by the English translators to make the text flow better.
I stumbled across a favorite old passage that I want to use to illustrate:
I want to focus on verse 25 for a moment. I remember bringing this to a friend's attention long ago, and his first reaction regarding the term "craft" was "witchcraft." How's that for word association? Of course, I did no better. I thought "craft" in this context meant "industry," like metal craft or something. However, the Strong's paints an entirely different picture:
Hebrew for H4820:
deceit, treachery
This I hope helps to illustrate what I have pointed out several times in the past about the limitations of the English translation. If the word had been "crafty" or something perhaps modern English readers would get a little bit closer to the original meaning, but as it stands in Elizabethan English it stills demands a bit of translation to better fully develop the intended meaning.
I sense this translational confusion may play a significant role in many of our denominational misunderstandings. Indeed, I have even seen where some denominations deliberately (although perhaps legitimately ignorantly) play up an incorrect translation.
Don't forget, the italicized words are not even in the original, they are inserted by the English translators to make the text flow better.
Dondi
Well-Known Member
Azure24 said:
Does God cause men to sin?
Also, define these passages...
As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).
"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).
Your proberly saying well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!
Define these:
"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).
"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
You know whats funny about this? I appear to be the only one using passages to prove my staements...
As it is written There is none righteous, no, not one. There is none that understands. There is none that seeks after God… There is none that does good, no, NOT ONE" (Rom. 3:10, 11, 12b).
"…there is NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD" (Matt. 19:17).
Your proberly saying well, okay, maybe we do lack the power of "free" will to actually do good and be righteous, but surely we possess enough "free" will, of our own, independent of God’s causal forces, to at least "come to Christ" and "choose Christ" so that He can then help our "free" will to do a little better job? Not!
Define these:
"No man CAN [by his own phantom ‘free’ will] come to Me, except the FATHER which has sent Me draw him [Greek: ‘drag him’]: and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:44 & 65).
"You have not[by your own phantom ‘free’ will] chosen me, but I have CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).
You know whats funny about this? I appear to be the only one using passages to prove my staements...
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
It must be out of your free will that you have chosen to ignore the scriptures I have presented.
LMAOROFIt must be out of your free will that you have chosen to ignore the scriptures I have presented.
God may choose us, but He has given us lattitude to Choose Him back. That too, is biblical. Otherwise we would not be warned time and time again to "be alert". To not "be alert" is a choice only we can make. In otherwords, we choose to be vigilant nor not, for the coming of the Lord (like a thief in the night). We choose to keep our lamp's filled with oil, or not. We choose...to be ready or not. The responsibility is OURs, not God's.
That is free will.
v/r
Q
Not only is the Bible a giant parable, but, all creation is a giant parable. Is it not real? Oh, it is real all right. But what we see, hear, and feel, in this physical universe, is not the lasting spiritual reality of God’s purpose for creation. In parables, the literalness of the words is but a symbol that stands for something spiritual and grand. The physical words of all parables will pass away, however, the spiritual fulfillment of those physical words will never pass away. This is another marvelous spiritual principal of understanding and wisdom. I have covered this before, but it certain warrants repeating. Paul presents us with this grand parable of creation, life, and the final destiny of the entire universe:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION.
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Christ] was made A QUICKENING [vivifying, living, immortal] SPIRIT
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is SPIRITUAL.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from HEAVEN [the realm of spirit].
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are HEAVENLY.
And as we [all humanity born of physical Adam] have born the image of the earthy, we [all humanity born of spiritual Jesus, the Christ] shall also bear the image of the HEAVENLY [Christ]" (I Cor. 15:41-49).
Do you think God is stupid? Can you not understand what is said (above).
Does no one agree that regardless of whatever we "choose" (As I used to say in church) THY WILL be done on Heaven and on earth!
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differs from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in INCORRUPTION.
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in GLORY: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in POWER.
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a NATURAL BODY, and there is a SPIRITUAL BODY.
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Christ] was made A QUICKENING [vivifying, living, immortal] SPIRIT
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterwards that which is SPIRITUAL.
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from HEAVEN [the realm of spirit].
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are HEAVENLY.
And as we [all humanity born of physical Adam] have born the image of the earthy, we [all humanity born of spiritual Jesus, the Christ] shall also bear the image of the HEAVENLY [Christ]" (I Cor. 15:41-49).
Do you think God is stupid? Can you not understand what is said (above).
Does no one agree that regardless of whatever we "choose" (As I used to say in church) THY WILL be done on Heaven and on earth!
Remember the principles of the Universe: Cause and Effect!
The Scriptures assure us that God did not create things that had no purpose for existence in the first place. All that God created was "very good." God "created evil," how can evil be good? That sounds like something God Himself said that we should not say: "Woe unto them that call evil good…" (Isa. 5:20).
First let me clarify that it is God Who says to US not to do this. In Gen. 1:31 it is God Who says:
"And God saw every thing that He had made [‘I make peace, and create evil’ Isa. 45:7] , and, behold, it was very good…"
Is this a contradiction? No, but it takes a bit of wisdom beyond childhood to properly understand it. God makes things that are "good," even "very good," that are not inherently good. That is, they are not good in and by themselves, but they are very good, in fact, PERFECT, for the purpose for which they were created.
Here are a few that existed before our parents sinned:
* The spiritual weakness of Adam and Eve
* Satan the serpent devil
* No protection from the serpent devil
* The Tree of the knowledge of good and EVIL
* Nighttime and darkness
* Human emotions of greed, lust, and vanity
God created all of these things, and yet not one of them is "good" in and by its self. Yet they are all perfectly good for the purpose for which they were created. But since they are not inherently good, they will all be changed or discarded after they have fulfilled their purpose. In the kingdom of God there will be, no weakness, no insecurity, no devils, no night, no emotions of lust and vanity, and nothing ugly. All of the things that I listed are TEMPORARY tools that will be discarded when the human race is perfected (and believe me, ALL the human race).
...the old order of things has passed away [why? Because they have fufilled thier purpose]" (Revelation 21:4)
Otherwise what's the point. Unless (like that thread) you believe God created this world for his entertainment.
Next, let’s see a few of the evils that God Himself has used after Adam sinned:
"I create EVIL" (Isa. 45:7)
someone on this board told me recently that this is mistranslated. Really? translate these then:
"…an experience of EVIL has God given to the sons of man…" (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Liter Old Testament).
"…I [God] will raise up EVIL against thee…" (II Sam. 12:11).
"I [God] created the waster to DESTROY" (Isa. 54:16).
"The Lord has made…the WICKED for the day of EVIL" (Prov. 16:4).
"…I [God] will bring EVIL from the north, and a great DESTRUCTION (Jer. 4:6).
"…Hear, O earth: behold, I [God] will bring EVIL upon this people…" (Jer. 6:19).
God told a "lying spirit" to "…go forth, and do so [lie]" (I Kings 22:22).
"He [God] turned their heart to HATE His people…" (Psalm 105:25).
"Behold I [God] frame EVIL against you…" (Jer. 18:11).
"…shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord has not done it?" (Amos 3:6).
"…God shall send them strong DELUSION, that they should believe A LIE" (II Thes. 2:11).
I don't take pleasure in presenting this, but it is scriptual truth...
God gives us THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of choices according to our own wills. It's just that NONE of them are exercised WITHOUT INFLUENCE (or a cause that makes us do as we do). Try some experimenting if you will. Sit still and try to come up with a thought, choice or action that has zero influence.You might think that something even just "pooped into your mind" and that NOTHING caused it. Sure it did. Something did. There are no effects in the physical or mental universe that have no causes.
You use the word "forcing" our foot steps. God never uses that word. But He does use words such as "directs" or "guides". It doesn't take a great deal of energy for God to make people follow the footsteps that He has established for us. The SLIGHTEST motivations in our finances, stomach, social life, egos, etc., will easily cause us to go either this way or that way.
As always none of this is of any value unless we can establish it in God's Word. Notice what God says regarding our "steps":
"...It is NOT IN MAN...to direct his steps..." (Jer. 10:23).
"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord DIRECTS HIS STEPS" (Prov. 16:9).
God could have just as easily said: "...the Lord directs HIS WAY" It's all the same to God.
"Man's goings [Heb: steps] ARE OF THE LORD: how can a man then understand HIS OWN WAY? [it matters not if our steps are good or sinful]" (Prov. 20:24).
"For now thou NUMBEREST my steps [THAT'S pretty specific, Matthew]: dost thou NOT watch over my SIN?" (Job 14:16).
Please read Prov. 20:24 again "HOW [I've said this before] CAN MAN UNDERSTAND HIS OWN WAY?!!!
I will give you a poor example of Prov. 20:24:
If anybody's heard the story of Tarzan, they'll remeber that in the beginning he is left in the jungle by himself with knowlegable books, which he by himself apparently learns how to read. Now this is impossible. But this is similar to what is being said about free will. EVEYTHING we do is influenced, either when we are children or now as adults. Just imagine being brought into existence in the middle of nowhere, how will you know about christianity? If you didn't KNOW about it?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
It must be out of your free will that you have chosen to ignore the scriptures I have presented.
I noticed Azure is willfully sidestepping my points by scripture and translation error too.
Or is he preordained to ignore points that conflict?
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Not at all. I *do* think there are some pretty stupid teachings of men running around in the world.
How can you be so certain you have the correct interpretation? I think I've got a pretty good handle on understanding what Paul wrote, but I also leave room enough to consider that I might just be mistaken. That attitude of not being absolutely certain drives me to study far deeper than the surface level, spurious teachings I often hear. It also lets me know when I am hearing something that does not jibe with what the Good Book really says. What is more, the passage you quote from Paul is unrelated to the freewill - predestination debate.
There are matters we probably agree on. On this matter we disagree. My disagreement is not out of stubborness or ignorance, but out of deep study. You are welcome to your opinion, by all means share. I do doubt you will win converts among those who look to the matter for themselves.
Again this is a red herring, or is it a strawman? Either way, it has no bearing on the debate. Because G-d's will is done in Heaven and on Earth does not mean it is not His will that we should have a will of our own. Put another way that you might easier understand, it *is* G-d's will for us to have our own will, that by that will of our own we can choose to join Him, or refuse Him. Whatever our choice, it is still within His will.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste all,
interesting discussion... i don't typically see Christians suggesting that free will doesn't exist.
i agree with Azure, free will is not free by any means that i can possible imagine.
metta,
~v
interesting discussion... i don't typically see Christians suggesting that free will doesn't exist.
i agree with Azure, free will is not free by any means that i can possible imagine.
metta,
~v
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Vajra!
It is good to see you back!
Your response surprises me, please continue.
It is good to see you back!
Your response surprises me, please continue.
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Juantoo3,
thank you for the post.
in every manner that i can tell a beings actions are influenced by past experience, their perception of the situation around them, the relationships that are connected from one memory to another and external factors all contributing to influence a beings choices and decisions.
perhaps we don't have the same understanding of the term "free will". this term is understood by me to mean the ability to make conscious decisions without influence.
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
juantoo3 said:
in every manner that i can tell a beings actions are influenced by past experience, their perception of the situation around them, the relationships that are connected from one memory to another and external factors all contributing to influence a beings choices and decisions.
perhaps we don't have the same understanding of the term "free will". this term is understood by me to mean the ability to make conscious decisions without influence.
metta,
~v
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Kindest Regards, Vajra!
And if I have misunderstood or oversimplified, I am open to correction.
That would be a new twist to me. "Free will," at least as I understand, doesn't mean free of influence or experience. That would require reinventing the wheel at every opportunity, no? Free will as I understand means being able to select from among influences and learn from experiences in order to direct a pending choice. If I am understanding Azure correctly, then there is no selection among influences (one cannot choose to be Democrat or Republican) and experience is moot. One is born to serve as one is created to be.
And if I have misunderstood or oversimplified, I am open to correction.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
To me, free will involves the ability to seek out information and advice (influence), and to accept, reject, or modify such advice/influence according to your perceptions and values, and apply them to your action or non-action. Free will involves being able to control your desires, or to act outside of your desires if you choose. It's the ability to choose "when to grasp and when to let go" in a coordinated manner. {Just my opinion.}
Hello Vajradhara, (It's good to see someone agrees with me.)
Hello again juantoo3, To be honest I've never really been good at explaining (or winning converts for that matter), but I try to do my best.
You see juantoo3 my conversation with you (and to disagree) is my own choice. This however (in my version of free will) has nothing to do with free will, call it free choice if you want...
Why the Apostle Paul had the same problem with free will also...
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).
After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh (Exodus) up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
Jesus (IMO) is the only one to resist sin, this was God's purpose (will - I will use "purpose" from now on). It all starts with the heart, God makes our hearts exeedingly weak. It takes spiritual power not to sin and we simply do not have it. If you belive you have free will, WILL yourself not to sin, go on give it a try, I dare you!
)Hello again juantoo3, To be honest I've never really been good at explaining (or winning converts for that matter), but I try to do my best.
You see juantoo3 my conversation with you (and to disagree) is my own choice. This however (in my version of free will) has nothing to do with free will, call it free choice if you want...
Why the Apostle Paul had the same problem with free will also...
"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).
After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh (Exodus) up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?
First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."
So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"
To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!
Jesus (IMO) is the only one to resist sin, this was God's purpose (will - I will use "purpose" from now on). It all starts with the heart, God makes our hearts exeedingly weak. It takes spiritual power not to sin and we simply do not have it. If you belive you have free will, WILL yourself not to sin, go on give it a try, I dare you!
Vajradhara
One of Many
Namaste Juantoo3,
thank you for the post.
wouldn't it necessitate a will that is free of external influence? a will that is not predicating decisions based on past experience? in essence a will that is totally free of contraint?
it seems that the very term implies such.
that does require a being to reassess every moment of decision making, analyze it to see if it is something that they, per se, are deciding or if it is the product of cultural and social conditioning.
well.. from a Christian point of view, i think that he does have support for such a view from the Bible.. it becomes a question of theology, imo, at that point.
if it is, in fact, true that the names of the elect are written in the Book of Life prior to the creation of the universe then there seems to be little question that, for those beings at least, free will is nonexistent.
of course.. i wonder.. have you considered the logical implications of a being that is omniscient and omnipotent? if, as the standard rethoric goes, God knows what you are going to do before you do it then you really cannot do otherwise or you would demonstrate that God is not omniscient.
if one doesn't have those concepts the problem is moot.
metta,
~v
thank you for the post.
wouldn't it necessitate a will that is free of external influence? a will that is not predicating decisions based on past experience? in essence a will that is totally free of contraint?
it seems that the very term implies such.
that does require a being to reassess every moment of decision making, analyze it to see if it is something that they, per se, are deciding or if it is the product of cultural and social conditioning.
well.. from a Christian point of view, i think that he does have support for such a view from the Bible.. it becomes a question of theology, imo, at that point.
if it is, in fact, true that the names of the elect are written in the Book of Life prior to the creation of the universe then there seems to be little question that, for those beings at least, free will is nonexistent.
of course.. i wonder.. have you considered the logical implications of a being that is omniscient and omnipotent? if, as the standard rethoric goes, God knows what you are going to do before you do it then you really cannot do otherwise or you would demonstrate that God is not omniscient.
if one doesn't have those concepts the problem is moot.
metta,
~v