There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

citizenzen said:
I'll take that as a compliment (that I missed your point entirely)
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Well, maybe if you can't see my point, other members here might be able to see it and might like to comment on it.

I think it is a good illutration of how we are only "free" to choose whatever is having the STRONGEST influence on our mind.
 
rodgertutt said:
No "free" will exisits in that split second.
Only the choosing of what we prefer the MOST at that point in time exists.

But you missed my point entirely!

A child who is threatened with eternal hell by their parents and religious leaders unless they stay a Christian or a Muslim has no "free" will to escape from that threat, because the people they have been taught to love and respect keep reassuring them that it is true.

That is why it rarely happens that one religion converts to the other.
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Conclusion: brainwashing results in a loss of will...or does it? Some seem to get willfully stuck in a rut from it.
 
wait a minute, hold the bus, he may be on to something:





LOL
 

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seattlegal said:
Conclusion: brainwashing results in a loss of will...or does it? Some seem to get willfully stuck in a rut from it.
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If I felt truely threatened (and believed it sincerely, like millions of Christians and Muslims do) that I would suffer forever in the afterlife unless I embraced and adhered to their religion, I would "willfully" choose to stay in it too.

That is, I would use my will to choose to stay in it.

But in no way can I perceive that choice to be a "free" choice.
The direction of that choice would be dictated by the influence of the thoughts that would cause absolute terror in my emotions of considering to choose anything else.
 
rodgertutt said:
If I felt truely threatened (and believed it sincerely, like millions of Christians and Muslims do) that I would suffer forever in the afterlife unless I embraced and adhered to their religion, I would "willfully" choose to stay in it too.

That is, I would use my will to choose to stay in it.

But in no way can I perceive that choice to be a "free" choice.
The direction of that choice would be dictated by the influence of the thoughts that would cause absolute terror in my emotions of considering to choose anything else.
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Ahh, but getting out of it would be a free choice!
 
rodgertutt said:
If I felt truely threatened... I would "willfully" choose to stay in it too.
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And yet there are countless stories of people leaving those beliefs behind and adopting more enlightened viewpoints. Life is difficult on many levels rodger. One of those levels may include casting aside destructive beliefs, but trust me, there are people who manage it.

Dance to a little Devo, dude...

[youtube]dVGINIsLnqU[/youtube]
 
seattlegal said:
Ahh, but getting out of it would be a free choice!
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The reason it would not be a "free" choice is because they would not be able to recognize they were in anything that they needed to "get out of."

Both Christians and Muslims are absolutely sure that everyone else needs to get in (not out of) the way they think in order to escape suffering forever in the afterlife.

With that kind of brainwashing they will never even WANT to "get out" of their religion.
 
rodgertutt said:
The reason it would not be a "free" choice is because they would not be able to recognize they were in anything that they needed to "get out of."
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What are you talking about?! :eek:

Now you're not only arguing against free will, you're arguing against perception and intelligence as well!!!

You really are something, rodger!
 
citizenzen said:
And yet there are countless stories of people leaving those beliefs behind and adopting more enlightened viewpoints.
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You say "countless stories." Are you personally aware of even one?

citizenzen said:
Life is difficult on many levels rodger. One of those levels may include casting aside destructive beliefs, but trust me, there are people who manage it.
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If a Christian or a Muslim is exposed to a strong enough influence, they will be able to use their will to break free from religious tyranny.

But it still would not be because of "free" will.

It would be because a stronger influence than the threat of eternal suffering has CAUSED their will to break free, such as the evidence of what I like to guide Christian people to like the following.
WILL JESUS TORTURE BILLIONS FOREVER?
The Law of Circularity

The influence of that evidence has enabled many Christians to break free from the threat of eternal hell, not because of their "free" will, but because of the convincing power of the evidence that CAUSES them to choose it.
 
citizenzen said:
What are you talking about?! :eek:
Now you're not only arguing against free will, you're arguing against perception and intelligence as well!!!
You really are something, rodger!
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Any Christian or Muslim that has been taught from the get-go that eternal suffering is going to be the fate of everyone who is not of their faith is simply not able to see differently. In fact they are afraid to even consider another possiblility.

That is why millions of Christians and Muslims grow up, live their lives, and die, never daring to leave their faith.
 
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rodgertutt said:
You say "countless stories." Are you personally aware of even one?
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I'll give you two. I was raised in an atheistic home. Neither parent believed in God, practiced any type of faith or attended any type of service. From that upbringing around the age of 18 my older sister converted to Mormonism. Around that same age I became a Buddhist. My younger sister remains without a faith.

People are able to move past the limits of their upbringing to discover their own preferred way to live. To believe anything else is to deny two of the most sublime aspects of the human condition: personal growth and self-discovery.

Please don't tell me you don't believe in that.
 
citizenzen said:
I'll give you two. I was raised in an atheistic home. Neither parent believed in God, practiced any type of faith or attended any type of service. From that upbringing around the age of 18 my older sister converted to Mormonism. Around that same age I became a Buddhist. My younger sister remains without a faith.

People are able to move past the limits of their upbringing to discover their own preferred way to live. To believe anything else is to deny two of the most sublime aspects of the human condition: personal growth and self-discovery.

Please don't tell me you don't believe in that.
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What I believe is that MOST Christians and Muslims live out their lives AFRAID to leave their faith because of the threat of eternal hell in the afterlife taght to them by their parents and religious leaders.
 
citizenzen said:
Here's a website devoted to people who've left Islam...
And one for people who've left Christianity...
From wikipedia, a list of former Jews...
Here's a former Baptist who's now a Muslim...
Former Jehovah Witnesses...
Former Mormons...
Buddhist converts to Christianity...
You want more rodger?
I could share with you religious conversions all day long.
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And I maintain that NONE of them left because of their "free" will.
They left because STRONGER influences CAUSED them to change their minds and embrace a different point of view.
 
rodgertutt said:
Any Christian or Muslim that has been taught from the get-go that eternal suffering is going to be the fate of everyone who is not of their faith is simply not able to see differently. In fact they are afraid to even consider another possiblility.

That is why millions of Christians and Muslims grow up, live their lives, and die, never daring to leave their faith.
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rodgertutt said:
What I believe is that MOST Christians and Muslims live out their lives AFRAID to leave their faith because of the threat of eternal hell in the afterlife taght to them by their parents and religious leaders.
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Wow. We went from the impossible to the possible in just a couple of posts.

Does it ever bother you that you make sweeping absolute statements only to back down from them a few minutes later?

It would bother me. It would make me wonder why I made those statements in the first place... since it was so easily proven that I didn't know what I was talking about. I'd find that rather embarrassing.

But I get the feeling that kind of thing doesn't bother you rodger. You'll just keep proclaiming one thing after another regardless of validity or forethought.

You talked about how it was impossible for people to see things differently. I proved you were wrong. You may be 71, but it's not too late for you to see things differently yourself. It's not impossible rodger. Why don't you give it a try?
 
citizenzen said:
Wow. We went from the impossible to the possible in just a couple of posts.
Does it ever bother you that you make sweeping absolute statements only to back down from them a few minutes later?
It would bother me. It would make me wonder why I made those statements in the first place... since it was so easily proven that I didn't know what I was talking about. I'd find that rather embarrassing.
But I get the feeling that kind of thing doesn't bother you rodger. You'll just keep proclaiming one thing after another regardless of validity or forethought.
You talked about how it was impossible for people to see things differently. I proved you were wrong. You may be 71, but it's not too late for you to see things differently yourself. It's not impossible rodger. Why don't you give it a try?
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NONE of the people left their religion because of their "free" will since there is no such a thing, neither can there be such a thing as "free" will.

They left becuse of the reasons they deemed the STRONGEST reasons for leaving CAUSED them to choose to leave.

Were they to be confronted with the same possible choice again, they would choose to leave again, all influences being the same as the first time.

It is not even possible that they would not leave their religion.
Their will was not "free" to stay in their religion because of the reasons why they preferred leaving the MOST.
 
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nativeastral said:
for a more refreshing yet no less fatalistic denial of will, and of course with no recourse to Deity, check out these U tunes talks on Nietzsche, especially sovereignty of the individual which deals with the topic here.
Nietzsche on Mind and Nature on iTunes Cloud of Witnesses
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I guess it depends on what you mean by "refreshing."

Personally I think it is very "refreshing" to be able to beleve in a God Who has everyone's best interests at heart and His good will towards everyone cannot be defeated by the will of any of His creatures.

THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html
 
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