There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[rodgertutt]

only our free choice causes one of the reasons to become the most persuasive: it was not so before we decided to regard it so.

When the sun comes up we don't "decide" that the reason we think the sun has come up (the red ball on the horizon) is the STRONGEST reason.
IT JUST IS THE STRONGEST REASON by virtue of the effect its appearance is having on our mind.

It's the same way with all choices.

We don't "decide" if the reasons we choose one thing over another are the STRONGEST reasons.
THEY JUST ARE by virtue of the effect they are having on our mind.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[bananabrain]

ok, but this seems to imply that you can only tell what the "strongest" reason is *after* you have acted upon it - i mean, it might have been the strongest reason before, but it is the act of responding to it that confirms its strength. which is what bob said already.

why are you persisting in this woodenheaded fashion, when it's clearly lacking in logic?

b'shalom

bananabrain

 

[rodgertutt]

ok, but this seems to imply that you can only tell what the "strongest" reason is *after* you have acted upon it - i mean, it might have been the strongest reason before, but it is the act of responding to it that confirms its strength. which is what bob said already.

We know the reason for our choice was the STRONGEST because we actually made the choice.

It is not contended (nor is it disputed) that, hypothetically and by itself, we might have chosen otherwise. That is not the idea at all. Instead, it is claimed that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise.

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FALSE

The fact that we chose it PROVES that it was a product of the combination of the STRONGEST reasonings that CAUSED us to prefer that choice the MOST.

why are you persisting in this woodenheaded fashion, when it's clearly lacking in logic?
b'shalom bananabrain

It is only "lacking in logic" to those who perceive it to be so.

BTW, no debate has ever been won by assessing an opponet's arguments in derogatory terms.

 

[rodgertutt]

Even if Bob was right, and he decided what the strongest inflences were going to be on the basis of his so-called "free" will, his decided choice still HAD to occur.

All influential factors being the same, he would make the same choice every time were he to be presented with the same decision over and over again.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[bob x]

All influential factors being the same, he would make the same choice every time were he to be presented with the same decision over and over again.

Well, that's an untestable hypothetical, but I believe it is profoundly false. The influential factors have no power to compel the outcome, and what someone chooses to regard as the most persuasive of the factors might not, if the same set of factors were presented again, be chosen as the most persuasive. There is nothing mechanical or deterministic about the process of choice, if indeed it could even be called a process.

 

[rodgertutt]

Well, that's an untestable hypothetical, but I believe it is profoundly false.
The influential factors have no power to compel the outcome, and what someone chooses to regard as the most persuasive of the factors might not, if the same set of factors were presented again, be chosen as the most persuasive. There is nothing mechanical or deterministic about the process of choice, if indeed it could even be called a process.

The same choice made by the same person considering the same reasons for choosing what they do choose would ALWAYS remain the same were they to choose again.

The "will" would have no reason at all to choose something different.

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[citizenzen]

It's just such a big "So what?" to me.

None of this helps to make up your mind during the decision-making process. You still deliberate, you still weigh your options, you still feel the tug of emotion pulling you this way or that. And in the end all of these factors lead you to a choice of your making.

After a choice has been made it's impossible to weigh and measure the influences that brought you to that decision. You can't say what influence really was stronger or weaker, you just know that the combination of influences contributed to the decision that was made.

The only thing rodger has indicated his philosophy does for him is to give him comfort knowing that nobody can usurp God's will. Well NO [BLEEP] SHERLOCK! If you believe in an eternal, omniscient, all-powerful diety, then WHO IS GOING TO USURP THAT? What part of "all-powerful" do you not understand?

What it really makes me wonder about is the strength of rodger's faith. If you need to invent devices to reassure yourself of God's power, maybe your faith wasn't so strong in the first place.

 

[rodgertutt]

It's just such a big "So what?" to me.

None of this helps to make up your mind during the decision-making process. You still deliberate, you still weigh your options, you still feel the tug of emotion pulling you this way or that. And in the end all of these factors lead you to a choice of your making.

After a choice has been made it's impossible to weigh and measure the influences that brought you to that decision. You can't say what influence really was stronger or weaker, you just know that the combination of influences contributed to the decision that was made.

The only thing rodger has indicated his philosophy does for him is to give him comfort knowing that nobody can usurp God's will. Well NO [BLEEP] SHERLOCK! If you believe in an eternal, omniscient, all-powerful diety, then WHO IS GOING TO USURP THAT? What part of "all-powerful" do you not understand?

What it really makes me wonder about is the strength of rodger's faith. If you need to invent devices to reassure yourself of God's power, maybe your faith wasn't so strong in the first place.

I always advise people.
Don't have faith in your will-power.
Have faith in the goodness of God instead.
Our faith may well falter or even be non-existent.
But God will change all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed anyway.
And the "will" of no creature can defeat God's intention to achieve this universal transformation.

This conclusion of course is from a universalist Christian point of view.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

 

[citizenzen]

I always advise people.

Can they get their money back?

 

[rodgertutt]

Can they get their money back?

There is no such thing as "free" will.
But there is such a thing as free advice.
That's the kind that I give.

So here it is again.

Don't have faith in your will-power.
Have faith in the goodness of God instead.
Our faith and will-power may falter or even be non-existent.
But God will change all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed anyway.
And the "will" of no creature can defeat God's intention to achieve this universal transformation.

This conclusion of course is from a universalist Christian point of view.
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL
evil.html

If any of what I just said is the strongest positive influence on your mind, then these ideas will help you like they help me.
But if they don't help you, you probably will search out what does help you, and you will stick with that instead.

In either case, good for you!

 

[citizenzen]

So here it is again.

Don't have faith in your will-power.
Have faith in the goodness of God instead.
Our faith and will-power may falter or even be non-existent.
But God will change all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed anyway.
And the "will" of no creature can defeat God's intention to achieve this universal transformation.​

I'd just shorten it to that.

You seem to get into trouble when you stray from that point.

 

[rodgertutt]

Don't have faith in your will-power.
Have faith in the goodness of God instead.
Our faith and will-power may falter or even be non-existent.
But God will change all evil and suffering into something better for everyone that it temporarily prevailed anyway.
And the "will" of no creature can defeat God's intention to achieve this universal transformation.
​

I'd just shorten it to that.

You seem to get into trouble when you stray from that point.

As I see it, the "trouble" is in the fundamentalist idea that everyone who doesn't use their "free" will properly will spend eternity suffering in hell.

The Christians say the Muslims are going to hell.
And the Muslims say the Christians are going to hell.
How is anyone supposed to have confidence in "the goodness of God" with ideas like that about what He is like?

 

[citizenzen]

As I see it, the "trouble" is in the fundamentalist idea that everyone who doesn't use their "free" will properly will spend eternity suffering in hell.

Yeah, well that's just nuts.

People put themselves through Hell.

They don't need God's help.

 

[bob x]

The "will" would have no reason at all to choose something different.

The will is not compelled by reasons.

Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And knowing I could not travel both,
And be one traveller, long I stood,
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim
Because it was grassy and wanted wear,
Though as for that, the passing there
Had worn them both about the same.

Both that morning equally lay
In leaves no steps had trodden black.
Oh I saved the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted I should ever be back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?
I took the road less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Note that Robert Frost is arbitrarily deciding to call the road he took "the road less travelled"; actually, he confesses, the two roads were equal in that respect. There was nothing at all about the nature of the roads which determined which one he would choose; only after he has chosen does one of them become the preferred. The only constraint on his freedom was that he had to choose one and only one.

 

[rodgertutt]

Yeah, well that's just nuts.

I agree. But millions of Chrisians and Mulims believe in an "eternal hell" of never ending suffering for people who are not of their faith.

Tell me citizen. Where is "free" will in the following scenario?

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”
(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of free literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

I don’t think he thought it was funny.

I then expected him to say what a Mormon missionary said to me in Montreal. “At the judgment, as you are being cast into hell, I will point my finger at you and say, ‘I told you so. I gave you a chance but you didn’t take it and now it’s too late’.”

It seems that we are supposed to believe that millions of Muslims, by sheer “accident” of birth, are born into a belief system that teaches their children that even to consider Christianity to be the truth will land them in an eternity of suffering in hell.

With that threat hanging over their head, do you really think any Muslim or Christian child has a "FREE" will to deviate from their faith.
Hardly ever does one convert to the other because of what they have been taught will happen to them (i.e. eternal suffering,) if they do.

I believe that the horrific false doctrine of endless suffering in hell causes more suffering here on earth than any other idea that people believe. That is why it gives me such great pleasure to offer people the urls that contain evidence that the Bible does not support such a concept of God.

 

[rodgertutt]

I took the road less travelled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Robert Frost chose the road he chose because he WANTED to the MOST.

That is what we all do.

All internal and external influences being the same Robert would ALWAYS choose that road.

If he did choose a different road, there would be a REASON for it, for instance, he wanted more variety in his life

"therefore contrary choice or “free" will not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[citizenzen]

Tell me citizen. Where is "free" will in the following scenario?

There's free will all over that scenario...

A Muslim missionary called me on my ministry phone in response to my newspaper ad “HELL IS NOT ENDLESS.”

A Muslim missionary chose to call you.​

(I have sent out many hundreds of packets of free literature to people who responded to these ads that I have put in two of Toronto’s largest newspapers since 1981.)

You chose to place the ad.​

The Muslim missionary said “Unless you convert to Islam you WILL go to hell.”

The Muslim missionary chose to say that to you.​

I said, “That’s what some Christians say if I don’t convert to Christianity.”

You chose to reply.​

He said, “But the difference is that Islam has the truth.”

The Muslim missionary chose to say that to you.​

I said, “That’s what some Christians say about their beliefs.”

You chose to reply.​

He said, “After you die you will learn that the Koran is the word of God and Islam has the truth.”

The Muslim missionary chose to say that to you.​

I said, “I guess I’ll just have to wait until then to find out for sure.”

You chose to reply.​

He said, “But it will be too late for you then.”

The Muslim missionary chose to say that to you.​

I laughed and said, “That’s exactly what some Christians say.”

You chose to reply.​

All through the example you provided there were moments of choice. You chose to engage in conversation. You chose the words you used to convey your thoughts. You chose the attitude with which those words were conveyed.

Now I know that you'll say that the choices you made were the only choices you could have made at that moment. But in that split second before your choice solidified into action, many options were available to you. It is in that moment before one acts that free will exists... just as it did in your conversation with that Muslim missionary.

 

[citizenzen]

[youtube]cKUvKE3bQlY[/youtube]

 

[rodgertutt]

Now I know that you'll say that the choices you made were the only choices you could have made at that moment. But in that split second before your choice solidified into action, many options were available to you. It is in that moment before one acts that free will exists... just as it did in your conversation with that Muslim missionary.

No "free" will exisits in that split second.
Only the choosing of what we prefer the MOST at that point in time exists.

But you missed my point entirely!

A child who is threatened with eternal hell by their parents and religious leaders unless they stay a Christian or a Muslim has no "free" will to escape from that threat, because the people they have been taught to love and respect keep reassuring them that it is true.

That is why it rarely happens that one religion converts to the other.

 

[citizenzen]

But you missed my point entirely!

I'll take that as a compliment.