There is no such thing as 'Free Will'

[shawn]

Having followed the thread for some time I have this to say
The argument presented by Rodger is about as relevant and meaningful as how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Not sure why you are so stuck on trying to convince anyone of this.
If you are right then it is irrelevant what you say or we think as we are then just puppets on the string with no real choice other than what a falling rock will have, it just bounces along according to the strongest impacts, or a feather blown about by the strongest winds.
Personally I think you are wrong, but you are "free" to be whatever you "will".

Now there is something.....the "will" which that notion doesn't really deal with.

 

[rodgertutt]

If you are right then it is irrelevant what you say or we think as we are then just puppets on the string with no real choice.

"Free will" is an illusion.

We do share one thing in common with "puppets on a string," and that is causality. Everything we believe and do is the product of the combination of strongest influences that have been brought to bear upon our mind at the time.

We always, without exception, choose in the direction of the STRONGEST sets of influences every time.

It is absolutely impossible to choose what we do not prefer MOST.

The fact that we choose it proves that we preferred it MOST even though there may have been other influences that were almost just as strong. For example, try to believe differently than you do right now. You can't can you? And you won't be able to until/unless stronger influences CAUSE you to do so.

The idea that it would not be right for God to punish us for doing what we could not help but do is merely an ethical opinion that is rendered irrelevant by the irrefutable fact that WE ALWAYS, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, CHOOSE IN THE DIRECTION OF THE STRONGEST INFLUENCE, ALL OF THE TIME.

Very few Christians actually believe Ephesians 1:11.
"God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will."
and
2Corinthians 5:18
“ALL is of God”

The Bible says that God is the Potter, and we are the clay.

Now there is something.....the "will" which that notion doesn't really deal with.

Of course we have a "will."
But we always use it to choose what we want the MOST.
Therefore, it is not possible that we could have chosen anything else but what we did choose in the past which was what we wanted the MOST at the time. And it is not possible that we can now choose anything else but what we presently want the MOST. And so it will be for all of our future choices.

 

[rodgertutt]

Not sure why you are so stuck on trying to convince anyone of this.

Speaking from a universalist Christian point of view, I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.

I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.

Then, after God has finished using evil and suffering for the reasons why He allowed them to temporarily exist, He will eradicate them from existence.

The "will" of no one can defeat God's intention to eventually bring permanent blessings to everyone.

I know you don't like links, but here is a good one on the subject
THE PURPOSE OF EVIL - A.P. Adams
http://thegloryrd.com:80/apadams/evil.html

 

[shawn]

Speaking from a universalist Christian point of view, I have a God Who is in intimate sovereign control over all strongest influences, and God will eventually transform all of the temporary negative consequences of our responses to strongest influences into something better that they temporarily prevailed. And He will eventually do this for every fallen creature without exception.

See, it is pointless to bother with the proselytizing and convincing then.
Just let things take their own course as they have a life of their own and we are just passengers, along for the ride.
Maybe we learn something on this spectators journey then??

By the way.. I still do not really agree with your notion.
I refrained from commenting for quite some time as I did not want to say any more and still do not want to....in fact I am doing this in spite of not wanting to.
But it is an exercise of my "free will", to choose something which I really would rather not do.
You can deny that it is so, but that is merely your opinion.

 

[rodgertutt]

See, it is pointless to bother with the proselytizing and convincing then.

If the strongest influence in our life is to try to convince others, that is what we will do. From a Christian universalist point of view, the "point" of trying to convince others is to show them that no will can defeat God's intention to eventually bring permanent blessing to everyone.

it is an exercise of my "free will", to choose something which I really would rather not do.
You can deny that it is so, but that is merely your opinion.

It may be true that you "really would rather not do it" to a certain extent.
But the fact that you actually do it demontrates that you really would rather do it MORE than you "really would rather not do it."

 

[shawn]

It may be true that you "really would rather not do it" to a certain extent.
But the fact that you actually do it demontrates that you really would rather do it MORE than you "really would rather not do it."

What do you mean "to a certain extent"??
I really did not want to respond as I think it is pointless, yet I am forcing myself to do what Ido not want to do.
I see that it is useless, yet I do it anyway.
I know I am wasting my efforts, yet I do it anyway.
Why?
Certainly not because I want to, as I do not.
Yet I do it regardless.
You cannot say that I do want to, as that would be untrue....and how would you really know.
You are just making assumptions then.
I am done....2 posts ago.
One more thing to add,
By this idea of yours it means that all those people who were coerced into doing horrible things really then wanted to do them as if they did not then they would not have gone through with such and that is patently incorrect IMO.

 

[rodgertutt]

Everything that everyone has ever done was the ONLY thing they could have done at the time.

Contrary choice, i.e. choosing want we want less instead of what we want MOST, is simply impossible.

Due to influences from within and without, a man may well change in the next moment from what he is in the present moment, but in any certain moment his deeds are simply the outflowings of his heart (Prov.4:23b). They reflect what is presently choice to him; that is, they constitute his true preferences, however excellent, or awful, they may be.

Though we do what we want, according to our own choice, and therefore act voluntarily, we cannot always want what we want. That is, we cannot truly want, in a decisive sense, what we want, simply in an abstract sense, so long as there are other things that we want more, in a decisive sense, than we want the ideals for which we abstractly long.

 

[citizenzen]

God, I've missed this discussion.

When I think of “free” will, the definition of it that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.

When most people think of "free" will, the definition of it is that during an act there is a choice made.

merriam-webster.com - voluntary choice or decision

thefreedictionary.com - The ability or discretion to choose

askoxford.com - the ability to act at one’s own discretion

education.yahoo.com - The ability or discretion to choose

wikitionary - The ability to choose one's actions

wordsmyth - the ability to choose or decide voluntarily

infoplease - made or done freely or of one's own accord; voluntary

allwords.com - The ability to choose one's actions

freedictionary.org - voluntary; spontaneous

lookwayup.com - the freedom or ability to choose​

It is your choice to add to this very simple definition the condition: to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind.

I could do the very same thing to PROVE there are no such things as birds...

"But wait," you'd say. "I see birds all the time. They have wings and a tail and they fly."

"Those aren't birds," I'd reply. "A bird has wings, a tail, can fly and can shoot solid gold ingots out of it's behind!"

"But that's crazy! Everybody knows what a bird is!"

"I know EXACTLY what a bird is! It has wings, a tail, can fly and can shoot solid gold ingots out of it's behind!"

"But..."

"I tell you a BIRD has WINGS, a TAIL, can FLY and can SHOOT SOLID GOLD INGOTS out of it's behind!"

[skip]

"I tell you a BIRD has WINGS, a TAIL, can FLY and can SHOOT SOLID GOLD INGOTS out of it's behind!"

[skip]

"I tell you a BIRD has WINGS, a TAIL, can FLY and can SHOOT SOLID GOLD INGOTS out of it's behind!"

[skip]​

Solid gold ingots of God

Bird droppings from Heaven

You can't [BLEEP!] with eagles unless you know how to fly

 

[shawn]

What is amazing is the length people will go to create rationalizations for their mind so they can accept or deal with past issues that trouble them.
Like..the devil made me do it so I am not responsible.
or...I am big boned and genetically inclined to obesity so it is not their fault that they are 200 lbs over weight.
or..I was drunk...or stoned or on meds at the time and so am not responsible for the actions.
or... they were temporarily insane and so cannot be held accountable for their actions.
etc....etc.
The idea that we cannot really choose and are just pushed along by currents of circumstance is another of that sad list of escapist ideologies which seek to find a scapegoat and keep people from dealing with their own issues.

But in Genesis Elohim said that He/She blessed man made male and female and gave them dominion.
Pretty profound idea which people don't really think too deeply or long upon.
But it is not their fault...the wind hasn't blown them that way yet I suppose.

 

[citizenzen]

The idea that we cannot really choose and are just pushed along by currents of circumstance is another of that sad list of escapist ideologies which seek to find a scapegoat and keep people from dealing with their own issues.

I am absolutely responsible for my all faults and failures. My actions and decisions bear fruit when they are based on wisdom and compassion and bear thorns when they are based on ego and selfishness. Learning to choose wisely is the greatest challenge we face in life.

Learning to choose wisely is my path to salvation.

 

[shawn]

I am absolutely responsible for my all faults and failures. My actions and decisions bear fruit when they are based on wisdom and compassion and bear thorns when they are based on ego and selfishness. Learning to choose wisely is the greatest challenge we face in life.

Learning to choose wisely is my path to salvation.

Aye,
and to take it one step further, to accept the consequences, be they good bad or indifferent, as part of the learning process, to embrace the failures as well as the successes, which gives us the faculties of discernment and empathy, which lead to compassion and right/wise action.

Certainly we all act from selfish motives for the majority of our lives, but the trick is to rise above the autopilot/self and act from higher motives.

And one cannot really love another until they have learned to love themselves.

The duality is another thing to transcend/comprehend, as there is no damnation to avoid and likewise, no salvation to attain. There is only balance, the endless ebb and flow which IS.

Even the learning process is another illusion, as we already know everything. We just tend to forget due to being fixated/fascinated with the temporal self.

 

[rodgertutt]

And now, after all that has been said in the last few posts, the stubborn fact remains irrefutable, that we always, without exception, choose what we want MOST at any particular point in time.

Our will is not "free" to choose anything else.

I agree with James Coram and Galen Strawson on this issue.

"Those who advocate “free will” actually mean to stand for by means of this expression is the notion that men have the power of contrary choice: Even though, in fact, we chose as we did, we could have chosen otherwise. That is, we could have done so at that time. It is not contended (nor is it disputed) that, hypothetically and by itself, we might have chosen otherwise. That is not the idea at all. Instead, it is claimed that, notwithstanding the fact that we did choose as we chose, we nonetheless could have chosen otherwise.

Due to our self-reliance, pride, impatience and anger, as well as our self-assured ethical notions about praise, blame and judgment, this idea of contrary choice is an extremely attractive one. Then there is the matter of our strong desire, whether acknowledged or not, for independent personal glory. Thus the wish becomes the father to the claim, and, consequently, the very foundation of human ethics.

Advocates of this position, which should be called, “the power of contrary choice,” prefer to perpetuate it instead under the innocuous and advantageously ambiguous title “free will.” At once, this gives it the advantage of a respectable-sounding name, and makes those few who are constrained to reject the actual doctrine appear as strange extremists, inasmuch as they reject such a well-accepted, desirable and seemingly reasonable concept.

The advocate of free will actually stands for the position which asserts that man’s choices are uncaused—absolutely devoid of all necessity. And yet he does not realize, or at least he refuses to admit the fact, that the denial of causality will not bring him any closer to what he wants than its advocacy.

Essentially this matter is a simple one: It is impossible to prevent anything that is the product of a cause from coming into existence; and, it is also impossible to prevent anything that is not the product of a cause from coming into existence. If a truly uncaused event were ever to occur (were such a thing even possible), being the product of nothing, uninfluenced and uninfluenceable, it would simply “show up,” appearing “out of nowhere.” While it would not be brought in, neither could it be kept out.

Whether “determinism” (i.e., causality), divine or otherwise, is true or false, we cannot possibly be free either way—that is, in a freewill or contrary-choice sense. If we are caused to choose as we do, we cannot help choosing as we do. And, if we are not caused to choose as we do, we still cannot help choosing as we do.

“We cannot be free agents, in the ordinary, strong, true-responsibility-entailing sense, if determinism is true and we and our actions are ultimately wholly determined by causes which existed anterior to our own personal existence. And we can no more be free if determinism is false and it is, ultimately, either wholly or partly a matter of chance or random outcome that we and our actions are as they are.” Galen Strawson, FREEDOM AND BELIEF, p.25; London: Oxford University Press, 1986

Neither determined nor random will afford any place for free will. Therefore, contrary choice or “free will” not only does not exist but cannot exist."

 

[rodgertutt]

The quote from James Coram is from his writing called
THE VAUNTED “POWER OF CONTRARY CHOICE”

 

[citizenzen]

And now, after all that has been said in the last few posts, the stubborn fact remains irrefutable, that we always, without exception, choose what we want MOST at any particular point in time.

I did what I did because that's what I done.

Popeye philosophy.

I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam.

Someone please pass the spinach.

 

[rodgertutt]

I did what I did because that's what I done.
Popeye philosophy.
I yam what I yam, and that's all what I yam.
Someone please pass the spinach.

You did what you did because it was what you wanted to choose to do the MOST, more than choosing to do anything else. You could not have chosen anything else at that particular point in time, all existing influences considered.

Therefore, as the subject title of this thread reads.
There is no such thing as 'Free' Will

That is my point.

 

[citizenzen]

There is no such thing as 'Free' Will

Even you have admitted that personal thought and desire are part of what determines ones choice. Who cares if today I "could only" have chosen chocolate and yesterday I "could only" have chosen vanilla? Each day I had both choices available to me. Each day I considered the options, and based on my desire at that moment made a choice. Free will exists in the period of time before the choice is made.

The freedom to choose either chocolate or vanilla and the potential of either flavor landing on my tastebuds existed up until the point I made my choice.

That is the very definition of free will. It is the freedom to choose voluntarily.

Therefore free will exists

 

[shawn]

rodgertutt
That is my point.

No.....that is your opinion.
You believe it to be true.
Which you are free to do.
And you continue to choose to do so with regularity.
But with the ideology of "you will only do that which you most want" I can clearly see why you are so hung up on it as you most want it to be true and so------
and so-------
and so------
and so------
like a broken record
on it goes as it is what you most want to be true.

It is this very psychology which keeps our species in religious conflict for so long.
Some may call it stubborn and unreasonable, others, narrow-minded.
But it is certainly wearisome.

 

[rodgertutt]

the very definition of free will is the freedom to choose voluntarily. Therefore free will exists

Of course we choose "voluntarily."
That is not the issue.

The definition of "free" will that I have in mind is the idea, that during the act of making a choice, it is possible to not choose something that is having the strongest influence on your mind to choose.

I maintain that is logically impossible. Thus, no "free will."

The combined influence of internal preference, i.e. finally deciding what we want MOST after due deliberation, plus external persuasive considerations will CAUSE all choices to occur.

The exact same set of influences in the exact same situation (if that were even possible) would always produce the exact same choice in the exact same person at that particular point in time.

That is why it is not even possible to choose differently than we do at any given point in time.

IMO this cannot be perceive as "free" will.

During the act of making a choice, it is not even possible to refuse to choose whatever is having the strongest combination of influences on our mind to choose.

The REASONS that we choose "something" over "something else" are the CAUSES of our choice.

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

In either case, a caused choice, or a random choice, could not have been prevented. The choice that was made was the only choice that could have been made at that point in time, all influences being the same.

Consequently, in both cases IMO, "free" will not only does not exist, but cannot exist.

 

[shawn]

If we insist that our will is so "free" that it was not caused to choose, we are saying that there were no reasons that we chose what we chose.
That would mean that we had to have chosen randomly (e.g. flipping a coin), i.e. not based on any reason, or combination of reasons.

That is a strange assumption as it does not take into account the presence of a creative force, namely you.
You decide.
You have perception, and discernment, you have a will.
A fine trinity.
This is the divine component of man which is the "in gods image and likeness part", that makes us a creative source as children (offspring) of god who are like God in that we can also create and decide.
If we cannot, then neither can God and that is foolishness.

 

[citizenzen]

Of course we choose "voluntarily."
That is not the issue.

Of course it's the issue!

If you want to redefine words according to your whim, then you're living in a fantasy world. The word "free will" is defined as voluntary choice. You admit that we voluntarily choose.

THEREFORE FREE WILL EXISTS!

Can we please stop talking about this?

You are now welcome to continue making up definitions to words as you wish.