Trinity

[Joedjr]

Hi Thomas,

Hi Joe —
No, that's putting the cart before the horse. Tradition gave us the Scripture, not the other way round.
Thomas

By this you mean, that the Christian tradition brought us the NT as the Jewish tradition brought us the OT but at different times in history?

Joe

 

[mee]

The evidence is that the NWT is, in the eyes of scholars the world over, a very poor translation, and furthermore one produced by a committee who did not know Hebrew or Greek, but had a damn good idea what they decided the Bible was going to say.

Evidence, by the way, that cannot be disputed ... the leader of the committeee said he knew Hebrew and Greek, but was unable to perform the simplest translation exercises when asked.

Thomas

HE CAUSES TO BECOME There is great meaning in the name of Jehovah . he accomplishes great things , and in the last days true knowledge is abundant in more ways than one Daniel 12;4

the original inspired scriptures were inspired of God, and even though the later translations were clouded by manmade tradition and doctrines , now in the last days, the true meanings have been made abundant . when the most high is behind a work great things are accomplished . and it has been . getting back to the true meanings in the bible and getting back to the thoughts of the most high is now abundant . the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION IS IT and it is very good .



but as we all know there is always great opposition to the purpose of God .

 

[mee]

If He is not God, then to preach and pray for salvation in His name is a blasphemy,

Thomas

Jesus plays a very big part in the outworking of Gods purpose for the earth ,and Jesus was sent to the earth by his father and Jehovah wants people to listen to Jesus . John 3;16-17 but Jesus is not God

 

[Pico]

but Jesus is not God

A huge part, perhaps all of teh New Testament has a different perspective. That God himself came in the flesh as a man to pay the penalty for our sins. Who but God can live a sinless life? Where in the bible has anyone accomplished somethign apart from God? God constantly shows us that He does everything for us. And that we must rely on Him.

He accomplshed salvation for us, no mere man did.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Joe —

By this you mean, that the Christian tradition brought us the NT as the Jewish tradition brought us the OT but at different times in history?

Yes.

Thomas.

 

[Thomas]

Jesus plays a very big part in the outworking of Gods purpose for the earth ,and Jesus was sent to the earth by his father and Jehovah wants people to listen to Jesus . John 3;16-17 but Jesus is not God

The 'outworking' can only be achieved by God, not man.

Man is not the architect of his own salvation, nor can a man save others — only God can save — and yet those who "received him (Jesus), he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his (Jesus') name" John 1:12. To receive Jesus is to be saved.

If only God can save,
and to receive jeus is to be saved,
then Jesus is God ...

... or Scripture is false.

Thomas

 

[mee]

That God himself came in the flesh as a man to pay the penalty for our sins. Who but God can live a sinless life? .

this was Jesus not God JOHN 3;16-17



Willingly, this Son left his heavenly home. (Philippians 2:7)


Jehovah performed a miracle when he transferred the life of this Son to the womb of Mary. By means of God’s holy spirit, Jesus was born as a perfect human and was not under the penalty of sin.—Luke 1:35.



after Jesus died, Jehovah raised him back to spirit life.
In heaven, Jesus presented to God the value of his perfect human life sacrificed as a ransom in exchange for Adam’s offspring. (Hebrews 9:24)

Jehovah accepted the value of Jesus’ sacrifice as the ransom needed to deliver mankind from slavery to sin and death.—Romans 3:23, 24.

 

[mee]

The 'outworking' can only be achieved by God, not man.



Thomas

john 3;16-17 yes ,and now we are well along into Gods purpose and Jesus is now a reigning king in the heavenly kingdom Daniel 2;44 Daniel 7;13-14
and things have moved along alot .

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Thomas,

Hi Joe —
Yes.
Thomas.

As I read through the passages of the new testament I have noticed that the people written about are Jews and that they follow Jewish customs. The Christian tradition of today do not follow in this same path. At some time in this Christian tradition there was a need to change some of the ways followed by the people of the new testament. Since this new way challenged and sinned against the old tradition do you suppose that the leaders of this new tradition had a need to show their new way was indeed the correct way? What do you suppose are some of the things that these leaders of the new tradition used to show that they were in the right?

Joe

 

[Thomas]

and now we are well along into Gods purpose and Jesus is now a reigning king in the heavenly kingdom Daniel 2;44 Daniel 7;13-14
and things have moved along alot .

The point you miss is there never was a times when Jesus was not 'a reigning king in heaven' ... He was before heaven and earth were created ... and He will be there after they have gone "Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass" Matthew 24:35

By saying "and now we are well along into Gods purpose" and "and things have moved along alot" assumes you know the timeline? You have a measure of things? You know when the end will come?

"But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36


Thomas

 

[mee]

"But of that day and hour no one knoweth, not the angels of heaven, but the Father alone." Matthew 24:36


Thomas

yes thats right ,no man knows the day or the hour when the most high will step into the affairs of man , even though the heavenly kingdom is now well established and has been since 1914 in line with bible prophecy and chronology, and the son of man Jesus christ has been given great aurthority, it is the most high Jehovah who is the one that will command Jesus to go into action Daniel 7;13-14 Daniel 2;44 yes the heavenly kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus recieved and was given his kingship.

but as you say no man knows the day or the hour when human goverments and rulerships will be removed.


but putting ourselves on the side of the heavenly kingdom with Jesus as the ruling king of it, is the thing to be doing before he steps in .


looking to the only way to peace on the earth is the way to go . and it is GODS KINGDOM not manmade counterfiet ones that claim to be the way to peace on the earth ,

Do not put YOUR trust in nobles,
Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.psalm 146;3 ​

Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. matthew 6;10 .







And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; daniel 2;44

 

[Pico]

this was Jesus not God JOHN 3;16-17

No offense, but you are missing a huge part of the New Testament that refers to Jesus as God. Not to mention the gospels.

I'm curious to JW's why do they think Jesus was crucified? To my understanding of the Bible, Jesus claimed to be God, and was killed for blasphemy.

 

[Thomas]

Hi Joe —

As I read through the passages of the new testament I have noticed that the people written about are Jews and that they follow Jewish customs.

OK.

The Christian tradition of today do not follow in this same path.

It follows on from the Hebrew Tradition, not just in — "Do not think that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" Matthew 5:17.

At some time in this Christian tradition there was a need to change some of the ways followed by the people of the new testament.

Again, because the Law of Christ goes beyond the Law of Moses. In Matthew 19:16-23 we have the dialogue with the 'rich young man':

"And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?" Jesus says, "keep the commandments" the young man says he has lived the Law since his youth, but he recongises in himself this is not enough, and Jesus says "come, follow me."

Since this new way challenged and sinned against the old tradition do you suppose that the leaders of this new tradition had a need to show their new way was indeed the correct way?

Where do you get the idea that Jesus sinned against the old tradition?

+++

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus gives us the eight beatitudes which, along with the Decalogue and the Apostolic Catechesis, is the foundation of Christian morality.

After the beatitudes, Jesus offers a commentary on the Decalogue itself:
"You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not kill. And whosoever shall kill, shall be in danger of the judgment. But I say to you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, shall be in danger of the judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council. And whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" Matthew 5:21-22. So Jesus takes the Commandmants of God, and goes beyond them, in his own name ... another explicit claim to divine authority:

5:27-28. "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery. But I say to you ... "

5:31-32. "And it hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a bill of divorce. But I say to you ... "

5:33-34. "Again you have heard that it was said to them of old, thou shalt not forswear thyself: but thou shalt perform thy oaths to the Lord. But I say to you ... "

5:38-39. "You have heard that it hath been said: An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you ... "

5:43-44. "You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you ... "

What do you suppose are some of the things that these leaders of the new tradition used to show that they were in the right?

1 John 1:1-3 "That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled, of the word of life. For the life was manifested: and we have seen and do bear witness and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father and hath appeared to us. That which we have seen and have heard, we declare unto you: that you also may have fellowship with us and our fellowship may be with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ."

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

yes thats right ,no man knows the day or the hour when the most high will step into the affairs of man,

Really? Then why do you set so much store by predictions?

I would have thought the Bible is the history of God 'stepping into' the affairs of man. Your assumption that there was a tie when God was not involved in the affairs of man seems to ignore the Bible.

even though the heavenly kingdom is now well established and has been since 1914 in line with bible prophecy and chronology,

You're predicting again ... how can it be 'well established' if you don't know when it will come to fruition?

No, that's your interpretation of Scripture, a man-made tradition of your own invention ... God stepped 'into the affairs of man' in the Garden of Eden, and has been at man's side ever since. It's only you who can't see it.

yes the heavenly kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus recieved and was given his kingship.

So there was not a heavenly kingdom before 1914 ... so God is subject to change?

So let me ask you two questions:

1 - Can God change?

2 - Is Jesus just a man, like any other man?

Thomas

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Thomas,

Hi Joe —
Where do you get the idea that Jesus sinned against the old tradition?

Ah, Jesus is one of the people written about in the new testament, He followed the Jewish customs. I did not even insinuate that Jesus sinned. Since the word used is fulfilled not change, the ones who don't follow G!d law are the ones in error.

from the NASB Matt:5

17:"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18:"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19:"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


The builders of Christian tradition of which you speak were the ones that have erred. They changed and added as they have seen fit to promote their ideas. Ideas that have very little biblical basis. If Christianity was practiced in line with what is taught in the bible instead of what was in the imagination of the tradition builders it would look nothing like we have today.

Joe

 

[Thomas]

Hi Joe —

The builders of Christian tradition of which you speak were the ones that have erred. They changed and added as they have seen fit to promote their ideas. Ideas that have very little biblical basis. If Christianity was practiced in line with what is taught in the bible instead of what was in the imagination of the tradition builders it would look nothing like we have today.

Ah. I understand now.

Matthew 13:10-11
"And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables? Who answered and said to them: Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given."

There's the difference. Orthodox Christianity is founded on Apostolic Tradition, and explains the Mystery of Scripture ... without those commentaries, the Mysteries remain veiled.

Thomas

 

[Joedjr]

Hi Thomas,

Hi Joe —
Ah. I understand now.
There's the difference. Orthodox Christianity is founded on Apostolic Tradition, and explains the Mystery of Scripture ... without those commentaries, the Mysteries remain veiled.
Thomas

So are you saying the church fathers ( tradition builders) have been Divinely inspired down through the ages?

Joe

 

[Still thinking]

Thomas - don't you love how Mee never addressed the errors in the NWT? You seem to be very educated in this area, since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test. If this is the "best and most accurate" translation of the Bible, I would challenge someone to give evidence, instead of regurgitating the same tired claims. Just a thought . . . . . . .

 

[Thomas]

Hi Joe —

So are you saying the church fathers ( tradition builders) have been Divinely inspired down through the ages?

Yes ... but that probably requires some explanation.

The first 'Tradition Builder' was Jesus Himself.

Following Jesus, came the Apostles, who taught as He taught them, and who were inspired (as were others) by the Holy Spirit (as detailed in Acts).

Next come the authors of Scripture, who were inspired by the Holy Spirit in what they wrote.

Next comes the Fathers, but we do not accord to the Fathers the same infallibility we accord Scripture.

However, when all the Fathers are in accord on a point of doctrine, then we can rely pretty well on that teaching being infallible. In the same way, the Church Councils are infallible, and the Magisterium is infallible ... this infallibility is founded on the succession of the Petrine Office:

"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
Matthew 16:18-19

You don't have to accept it of course, if you're not Catholic/Orthodox, but that does not mean it's not the case.

Thomas

 

[Thomas]

You seem to be very educated in this area,

Ha! Oops, sorry, no insult! I only laugh because my course director is fluent in Hebrew, Greek, latin and Ugaritic ... now that's what I call 'educated'!

since you mentioned the so-called "translators" of that Bible being unable to pass a simple test. If this is the "best and most accurate" translation of the Bible, I would challenge someone to give evidence, instead of regurgitating the same tired claims. Just a thought . . . . . . .

Well the leader of the translation committee claimed to be fluent in Greek and Hebrew, but when asked, under oath, to translate a simple piece of Hebrew text, he declined. I'll dig out the link, if you want, there's a transcript of the trial.

The JW's have always tried to keep secret the names of the translators, precisely because there's not one 'with the Greek' as the Irish would say, amongst 'em, but eventually it all came out...

What makes me laugh most is that the JWs are doing precisely what they accuse everyone else of doing ... their's is 'the tradition of men' and their doctrine is 'heretic' in that it chooses to emphasise one aspect of Scripture (the Book of Daniel) and ignore the New testament almost entirely, except for the odd quote here and there ... it certainly ignores the spirit ...

... I don't understand why such 'Christians' who base their entire doctrine on a narrow reading of the Old Testament don't become Jews — in fact no, that's unfair to the Jews, perhaps Islam would suit them better, with its command to submission and its denial of the divinity of Jesus ... certainly the fundamental commandment of Christianity — 'love thy neighbour as I have loved you' is completely ignored. These guys are real 'fire 'n' brimstone' types.

Thomas