You definitely piqued my curiosity D, until I went and read the declaration of the "pharoh", in the Q'uran, before his death.
Islam did not exist until Mohammad came on the scene, yes? This was circa 652 AD/ACE yes?
So why would Pharoh claim to be a believer, and a "Muslim" when "Muslims" did not exist until 2000 years (conservative estimate), after the life of Moses?
Moses lived 1300/1500 BC/BCE...
Surah 90, 91, 92 is what I am looking at.
Indeed, that would be like saying there were Christians at the same time as Moses (1300 years before Christ walked the earth).
As an aside, before Mohammad, the Middle East Arabic peoples for the most part, were polytheistic in beliefs. Ramsese II (if he was the pharoh), was also polytheistic, with "RA" as the primary god of the Egyptians, not the Arabic peoples'.
The Q'uran can't clear up when Islam began:
"The Qur'an makes various contradictions about who the first Muslim was.
Some verses claim that the 'prophet' Muhammad was the first Muslim. For example, "He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I [Muhammad] am the first of the Muslims." S. 6:163
At other times the Qur'an states Moses to be the first Muslim. "And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers." Sura 7:143.
And at other times Adam, Abraham and Jesus (all born before Muhammad) were claimed to be the first Muslims.
Because of the many contradictions in Qur'anic sources it can only be assumed that Islam started with Muhammad's claims of revelations in the 7th Century AD.
Answer
From the time of Abraham & Jacob;
2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
or maybe from the time of Moses;
7:143 And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. 39:12
or perhaps from the time of Muhammed;
And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
in any controversies, in this case there are three, all cannot be correct, but all can be incorrect.
Answer
Around 610, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (the Prophet), began to preach based on revelations he received. In 622 he journeyed with his followers to Yathrib (later Medina) in present day Saudi Arabia and became leader of his new community, or "umma." This inaugurated Year 1 of the Islamic Era. After more than 7 years of jihad, or holy war, against the Meccans and others who rejected his message, Muhammad and 10,000 followers were able to enter Mecca in triumph in 630. Mecca now became Islam's premier holy city, while Medina remained the political capital of the Umma.
If Pharoh believed in a single God, his was not the god of the Hebrews, as he declared himself. And as a "Muslim" if that is the case, the Pharoh admitted that the Hebrew God was the one true God.
I know Dialogue, that this is opening a can of worms, but you asked me to check out a "prophesy" as noted in the Q'uran. And I did, without ever referring to the Christian or Jewish scriptures...and now there are more questions than answers...
v/r
Q
You definitely piqued my curiosity D, until I went and read the declaration of the "pharoh", in the Q'uran, before his death.
Islam did not exist until Mohammad came on the scene, yes? This was circa 652 AD/ACE yes?
So why would Pharoh claim to be a believer, and a "Muslim" when "Muslims" did not exist until 2000 years (conservative estimate), after the life of Moses?
Moses lived 1300/1500 BC/BCE...
Surah 90, 91, 92 is what I am looking at.
Indeed, that would be like saying there were Christians at the same time as Moses (1300 years before Christ walked the earth).
As an aside, before Mohammad, the Middle East Arabic peoples for the most part, were polytheistic in beliefs. Ramsese II (if he was the pharoh), was also polytheistic, with "RA" as the primary god of the Egyptians, not the Arabic peoples'.
The Q'uran can't clear up when Islam began:
"The Qur'an makes various contradictions about who the first Muslim was.
Some verses claim that the 'prophet' Muhammad was the first Muslim. For example, "He hath no associate. This am I commanded, and I [Muhammad] am the first of the Muslims." S. 6:163
At other times the Qur'an states Moses to be the first Muslim. "And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers." Sura 7:143.
And at other times Adam, Abraham and Jesus (all born before Muhammad) were claimed to be the first Muslims.
Because of the many contradictions in Qur'anic sources it can only be assumed that Islam started with Muhammad's claims of revelations in the 7th Century AD.
Answer
From the time of Abraham & Jacob;
2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
or maybe from the time of Moses;
7:143 And Moses fell down senseless. And when he woke he said: Glory unto Thee! I turn unto Thee repentant, and I am the first of (true) believers. 39:12
or perhaps from the time of Muhammed;
And I [Muhammad] am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims (surrender unto Him).
in any controversies, in this case there are three, all cannot be correct, but all can be incorrect.
Answer
Around 610, Muhammad ibn Abdullah (the Prophet), began to preach based on revelations he received. In 622 he journeyed with his followers to Yathrib (later Medina) in present day Saudi Arabia and became leader of his new community, or "umma." This inaugurated Year 1 of the Islamic Era. After more than 7 years of jihad, or holy war, against the Meccans and others who rejected his message, Muhammad and 10,000 followers were able to enter Mecca in triumph in 630. Mecca now became Islam's premier holy city, while Medina remained the political capital of the Umma.
If Pharoh believed in a single God, his was not the god of the Hebrews, as he declared himself. And as a "Muslim" if that is the case, the Pharoh admitted that the Hebrew God was the one true God.
I know Dialogue, that this is opening a can of worms, but you asked me to check out a "prophesy" as noted in the Q'uran. And I did, without ever referring to the Christian or Jewish scriptures...and now there are more questions than answers...
v/r
Q
Look, Quahom1, it isnt as confusing as you thought.
According to the Quran, Islam is the religion that all prophets came with from Abraham to Muhamed, peace be upon them all.
Islam in Arabic means submission. So, all the prophets came with the same message, which is submission to the One and the Only God .
God says:2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters (Muslims)."
NB: notice, Quahom1, that this translation used the term submitters as synonym of Muslims.
According to the Quran, Moses and Jesus peace be upon them came with the same message of Muhammed peace be upon him. It is after Moses and Jesus' death that people came to deviate their message from its real core. God sent Jesus to the people of Isreal to correct their message, and get them back to its real core as it was sent down to Moses by God. Unfortunately, after Jesus's death, people also came to deviate from Jesus's true message. Hence, God sent Muhammed peace upon him to play the same role that Jesus peace be upon him played with people of Israel.
I think now you could undesrtand the sentence "I m the first Muslim". For all the prophets were all the first Muslims (submitters to God) among their people. When Pharoah said: " "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter (
Muslim).(10:90)" he simply meant I am a submitter. Again the above translation used the term submitter instead of Muslim. They are maning the same.
Christianity and Judaism are humanmade terms. God says:"
[2:135] They said, "You have to be Jewish or Christian, to be guided." Say, "We follow the religion of Abraham - monotheism - he never was an idol worshiper."
Hope this makes things clearer, Quahom1.
PS: be sure, Quahom1, that I meant no offense. I ve just answered your question, and tell how things are explained in the Quran.
