Give me any statement .....

[farhan]

The majority of jews, not all jews, as there is always a remnant before Christ was born, during his life here, and when he went back to the Father that believe and have hope in His name. Give me any statement...Here are some words of Christ contrasted against the Old Testament:

Christ says using the same words as seen in John, Luke and Revelations contrasted with Exodus and Isaiah so everyone would know who he is claiming to be. Even God in the old testament does not say here i am God in these verses, he says I am, or saviour/redeemer, or everlasting light, or good shepherd.

You have comfortably overlooked the fact that other than allegedly being a substitute for God/Jesus, the word he can also be, very usually used as a "third person masculine singular" pronoun. Lets see the verses you quoted.

Exodus 3:14, "God said to Moses, "I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’"

With my knowledge of Arabic, I am pretty much sure that even God wouldn’t be able to say this in any semitic language.

Isaiah 43:10, "You are my witnesses," declares the Lord, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

See 43:3, its God talking about himself, saying, I am he, your lord. No mention of Jesus

Isaiah 60:20 ,"our sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of sorrow will end."

Is. 60:14 The sons of your oppressors will come bowing before you; all
who despise you will bow down at your feet and will call you
the City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Is. 60:15 “Although you have been forsaken and hated, with no-one
travelling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and
the joy of all generations.

Is. 60:16 You will drink the milk of nations and be nursed at royal
breasts. Then you will know that I, the LORD, am your
Saviour, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

Is. 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring you gold, and silver in place of
iron. Instead of wood I will bring you bronze, and iron in
place of stones. I will make peace your governor and
righteousness your ruler.

Is. 60:18 No longer will violence be heard in your land, nor ruin or
destruction within your borders, but you will call your walls
Salvation and your gates Praise.

Is. 60:19 The sun will no more be your light by day, nor will the
brightness of the moon shine on you, for the LORD will be
your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.

Is. 60:20 Your sun will never set again, and your moon will wane no
more; the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days
of sorrow will end.

Is. 60:21 Then will all your people be righteous and they will possess
the land for ever. They are the shoot I have planted, the work
of my hands, for the display of my splendour.

Is. 60:22 The least of you will become a thousand, the smallest a
mighty nation. I am the LORD; in its time I will do this
swiftly.”

This is God talking about the good things he is going to give Israel. No mention of Jesus.

Isaiah 40:11, "He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young."

Is. 40:9 You who bring good tidings to Zion, go up on a high
mountain. You who bring good tidings to Jerusalem, [Or O
Zion, bringer of good tidings, go up on a high mountain. O
Jerusalem, bringer of good tidings] lift up your voice with a
shout, lift it up, do not be afraid; say to the towns of Judah,
“Here is your God!”

Is. 40:10 See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm
rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense
accompanies him.

Is. 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his
arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those
that have young.

Is. 40:12 Who has measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, or
with the breadth of his hand marked off the heavens? Who
has held the dust of the earth in a basket, or weighed the
mountains on the scales and the hills in a balance?

Again God talking about himself. No mention of Jesus.

Isaiah 48:12, "Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last."

Read from 48:1 to 48:15. Its God talking about himself.

Isaiah 44:6, "This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the Lord Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."

Ofcourse

John 8:24, "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

Well, NIV says I am what I claim to be. Explains everything.

John 8:58, "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Again, this am thingy doesn’t exist in Semitic languages.

John 13:19, "I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

Jn. 13:16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor
is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

Jn. 13:17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you
do them.

Jn. 13:18 “I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen.
But this is to fulfil the scripture: `He who shares my bread
has lifted up his heel against me.’

Jn. 13:19 “I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does
happen you will believe that I am He.

Well, HE who ? Servant of The Master & Messenger of The Sender. Also, there is no capitalization in Aramaic. So wherever you see He with capital H, be assured it’s the teaching of the Indo-European church, not the Jewish Jesus.

John 8:12,"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

He is not claiming divinity here. I am the light means something like I will show you the path.

John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

No divinity here either.

Rev. 1:17, "When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: ‘Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.’"

Revelations is not exactly the word of Jesus…right?

Luke 23:3, "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied."

Nothing to disagree here.

There are some other points here

 

[Netti-Netti]

I don't think there is much room for such theoretical speculation when the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in Acts 10. If you insist on seeing Jesus just in his Jewish perspective, you will be denying the Holy Spirit.

I don' understand. Doesn't the Holy Spirit make appearances in the Old Testament?

 

[seattlegal]

I don't think there is much room for such theoretical speculation when the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out on the Gentiles in Acts 10. If you insist on seeing Jesus just in his Jewish perspective, you will be denying the Holy Spirit.

I don't understand. Doesn't the Holy Spirit make appearances in the Old Testament?

It was in response to this:

As far as Jesus' role as Christ is concerned, just see him in his jewish perspective. Its so *evident* that he was the Messiah of Jews, not of the Romans. So why see him through Roman eyes? Moses is what jews thought of him. Try to see him through Egyptian viewpoint & you will encounter a whole lot of similar confusions there too.

Confining Jesus to only the Jews would be denying the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles, refuting the assertion highlighted above in blue.

 

[juantoo3]

Although I agree with this, but still, in the initial days, the Christianity that existed was Jewish Christianity. Following the Mosaic law & accepting Jesus as a human being, a messenger of the sender. This is the only Christianity that seems real to me. I think if you see it from a neutral perspective, you will arrive at the same conclusion.

Absolutely, and I do. That's what gets me in trouble around here, my reactionary POV.

The trouble is, one ends up too Jewish to be Christian, and too Christian to be Jewish, so both sides tend to alienate one. The classic "between a rock and a hard place."

Thanks Farhan! You are a pleasure to speak with. Peace.

 

[seattlegal]

Religion is more or less about appeal to authority. "This is right/good because he said so". Infact any kind of moral judgment is an appeal to authority, There is no logic behind goodness. People follow a belief system (including atheism) either because they accept some authority, or else because it feels good, which is an appeal to emotion. Either way, faith (or lack of it) is a little bit illogical.

Jesus being "homoousios" is not hard to believe, but more exactly "hard to find". We don’t see him saying this in "his book". And that’s precisely the original post. It's not hard to believe because I believe in Quran, its hard to believe because it doesn’t exist. As I said before, its later people, Paul or John. Or else the publishers who use uppercase for every he used for Jesus.

So if you believe in a religion, you are giving in to somebody's authority. The real question is, whose authority are you giving in? The question gets bigger when we see more than one distinct & seemingly contradicting authorities.

Islam vs. Christianity is a separate issue; we aren't into that right now. Right now we have got Jesus & his divinity, which makes the foundation of Christianity (Atleast the dominant version of it).


From Islamic point of view, considering Christ "third of the three" is mayhem/anarchy of cosmic level. So the whole universe cares.


Although I agree with this, but still, in the initial days, the Christianity that existed was Jewish Christianity. Following the Mosaic law & accepting Jesus as a human being, a messenger of the sender. This is the only Christianity that seems real to me. I think if you see it from a neutral perspective, you will arrive at the same conclusion.

Hey, if you want to discard the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles as being invalid, that's your perogative. I'll take empirical evidence and observations over theory.

 

[Quahom1]

Can you give me any unequivocal statement of Bible Where Jesus he himself says Im God or worship me?

"You call me Teacher and Lord, and you say well, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash on another's feet" (John 13:13-14).

Definition of Lord: 1: one having power and authority over others: a: a ruler by hereditary right or preeminence to whom service and obedience are due b: one of whom a fee or estate is held in feudal tenure c: an owner of land or other real property dobsolete : the male head of a household e: husband f: one that has achieved mastery or that exercises leadership or great power in some area <a drug lord> 2capitalized a: god 1 b: jesus

 

[17th Angel]

But never said god? Why not?

 

[BlaznFattyz]

Again God talking about himself. No mention of Jesus.

Because you are not contrasting your statement with the new testament and how God has revealed himself thus fulfilling scripture regarding the Son you are making an incorrect statement here. It is written that The Word of God is the one created all things and is God and came into this world to die for our sins so we might be saved. Therefore, the correct interpretation of the scripture is any reference to saviour, redeemer, everlasting light, Holy One, or light of the world is referring to Jesus Christ just as it refers to the Father, because there is no salvation without the Father's will just as there is no salvation without the Lamb of God carrying out his will. There is no grace of God without the Son. It is like you are trying to put some ikea furniture together and saying it doesnt work, but its only because you are not reading the instructions ikea has put in the box that explains how to put it together. This is stumbling to those that are in the dark over who God is and his love for us and his plan to redeem us, and the light that guides your path is Jesus Christ.

 

[Dondi]

I have a favorite passage on this, but it takes a bit of exegesis:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." - Revelation 21:5-7

From verse 5, we know that the person speaking is one in authority, as he is on a throne and that he is proclaiming that he is making all things new. In verse 6, he says that He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Back in Revelation 1, we find this same terminology being used:

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." - Rev 1:8

So it is apparent from this verse that the Alpha and Omega is the Lord God, the Almighty and that a few verses he instructs John to write to the seven churches which are in Asia.

Now John, when He hears this voice, turns and beholds a figure that is "like unto the Son of Man" followed by a lengthy description which includes a two-edged sword" coming out of his mouth. Then this same figure states:

"...Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death." - Rev 1:17-18

This description is similiar to the one we find in Rev. 19:11-16, who is has the name "The Word of God", "King of Kings", and "Lord of Lords", who likewise has a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth.

Based on this we can only conclude that the Alpha and Omega is indeed the Lord Jesus Christ. One who lived and died and lived again.

Going back to Rev. 21:6, we have another clue: "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." In John 4:14, we have Jesus conversing with the Samaritan woman which he tells her, "But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life." This provides further evidence that the voice in Rev. 21:5-7 is that of Jesus Christ.

Now it is important to follow on from Rev 21:6, where we identified Jesus Christ as the giver of living water, to Rev 21:7:

"He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

Ergo, in establishing Jesus Christ as the speaker in this passage, we also have a verse where he proclaims himself as God.

 

[Quahom1]

But never said god? Why not?

The Greek and Hebrew form of the word "Lord" also means God.

 

[17th Angel]

Really? I never knew that, where can I find details of it?

 

[juantoo3]

Really? I never knew that, where can I find details of it?

Check out the Strong's Concordance.

 

[17th Angel]

Thanks I shall

 

[Joedjr]

Hi SG,

Confining Jesus to only the Jews would be denying the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Gentiles, refuting the assertion highlighted above in blue.

Has anyone or Jesus tried to confine Jesus to any one group? --> "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The Jewish group is the one he was born into and the one he moved in.
Wasn't the Blessing to the Gentiles adding a branch to the tree, not really creating a new tree.

.02
Joe

 

[Quahom1]

Hi SG,

Has anyone or Jesus tried to confine Jesus to any one group? --> "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The Jewish group is the one he was born into and the one he moved in.
Wasn't the Blessing to the Gentiles adding a branch to the tree, not really creating a new tree.

.02
Joe

Indeed. Gentiles are the "grafted branch" to the tree.

 

[seattlegal]

Hi SG,

Has anyone or Jesus tried to confine Jesus to any one group? --> "He who has ears to hear, let him hear." The Jewish group is the one he was born into and the one he moved in.
Wasn't the Blessing to the Gentiles adding a branch to the tree, not really creating a new tree.

.02
Joe

Yes, this post:

As far as Jesus' role as Christ is concerned, just see him in his jewish perspective. Its so *evident* that he was the Messiah of Jews, not of the Romans. So why see him through Roman eyes? Moses is what jews thought of him. Try to see him through Egyptian viewpoint & you will encounter a whole lot of similar confusions there too.

 

[Courage]

Can you give me any unequivocal statement of Bible Where Jesus he himself says Im God or worship me?

He won't do that because it's not His mission to come here declaring God, He came to die for us. If He declared His deity, He will be caught and killed by the Jews long before He made His teaching known to His disciples and thus this world.

If He's not God, He has a more convenient and legitimate way to clarify who Himself is. He can simply say that,

"I am only the Son of God, I am not God Himself"

Yet He didn't do so. In contrary, He hinted that He's God such that the Jews understand what He means yet lack evidence to arrest and kill Him.

Which says, to clarify whether He's God or not, He has two choices,
1) declare Himself God, but risking Himself failing the mission thus failed the Father
2) If He's not God, simply says that He's not

Yet Jesus Christ never said that He's not God, in the contrary, even His direct disciple called Him God.

John 20:28
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

 

[17th Angel]

"I am only the Son of God, I am not God Himself"

Yet He didn't do so. In contrary, He hinted that He's God

Que!?

YHWH: "This is my son, the beloved... Whom I have approved."

Jesus: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. Why is it YOU do not know what I am speaking? Because YOU cannot listen to my word. YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me."

Jesus: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

Jesus: (one of my personaly favourites...)"YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming back to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."

Yeah whatever... lol.

 

[islamis4u]

i will reply the topic as fast as i could and do accept my apology for not replying for so long because of my some problems,....

 

[Courage]

Que!?

YHWH: "This is my son, the beloved... Whom I have approved."

Jesus: “If God were YOUR Father, YOU would love me, for from God I came forth and am here. Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth. Why is it YOU do not know what I am speaking? Because YOU cannot listen to my word. YOU are from YOUR father the Devil, and YOU wish to do the desires of YOUR father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie. Because I, on the other hand, tell the truth, YOU do not believe me."

Jesus: "Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

Jesus: (one of my personaly favourites...)"YOU heard that I said to YOU, I am going away and I am coming back to YOU. If YOU loved me, YOU would rejoice that I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am."

Yeah whatever... lol.

He said that He's not the Father, He never said that He's not God. That's why the concept of His Trinity.