universal evolution and the real and living creator god [yes thats right!]

[cyberpi]

So what hope do any of us have without blind faith?

Real faith.

I dont understand Are you saying God created evolution just so he could tidy it up?

You should ask God. I witness that I have a choice of whether to make use of evolution or not.

 

[path_of_one]

I am such a slow typist that to even begin to cover the main themes that we discuss becomes a days work. But I have a real days work to get to so it will have to wait. Good reading though, and a lot to respond too!!


Tao

Sorry, Tao. I tried to be succinct, but I'm trying to cram years of reading and study into sound-bites. (I type 80 wpm, so I'm a quick responder, but I no worries- I realize most people take some time! I won't think you are ignoring the conversation!)

 

[path_of_one]

Might I add, an "evolutionary" step backwards would solve the problem too, and at the rate we seem to be going that is looking to me more and more what may come about. And the instruments that will take us down that path are the progeny of science, not religion. Religion will probably build the hysteria needed to wield the awesome weapons of mass destruction, but the bombs themselves are the brainchildren of science.

Reminds me of another Einstein quote:

"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

I will put forth that it is not religion alone that is the problem. Religion combined with nationalism seems to be the biggest problem.

As for references to the value of religion for ecology, off the top of my head, one of the founding works on the matter (and a basic book in the history of cultural ecology) was "Pigs for the Ancestors" by Rappaport. It shows how the religion is the way that long-term ecological cycles, nutrition needs, and violence are organized so as to provide long-term cultural/group survival. There are a ton more. My personal all-time favorite, and a work that caused me to recognize my own spirituality's earth-based and shamanic "flavor," is "Make Prayers to the Raven." Fantastic and detailed treatise on religious rules surrounding virtually every facet of natural resource use and management among the Koyukon people of Canada. Beautifully written, stunning descriptions of the land, extensive notes on the detailed and complex religious rules, and a great explanation of how they all worked to ensure that use levels were appropriate to ecological cycles, populations of wildlife, etc.

For a more state-based centralized religion that used religion to reduce conflict over water management and ensure a good balance between upstream and downstream interests, there is "Priests and Programmers" by Lansing. Interestingly, when the colonists attempted to figure out the water management, they weren't that great at it because they couldn't recognize that all that religious stuff actually was tied into a system of water management and was, in effect, a folk science system as well as a religion. For an exploration of modern decision-making and the deep ecology movement, there is "The Ecology of Emotion" by Kay Milton. Great read, though there are some theoretical glitches I've been working on. I have extensive comments on Milton if anyone is interested. But overall, her work is very good and explains how good decision-making relates to emotion and personification. Finally, and what I would recommend first, is "Ecologies of the Heart" by E.N. Anderson. I know Anderson personally and professionally and have had extensive conversations with him. His work is solid, well-grounded in theory (he's an exceptionally comprehensive reader, and one I can't approach in depth or breadth), and the advantage of his book is that he brings in his studies of multiple cultures as well as an overall discussion of theory relative to ecological decision-making. It's really a great and entertaining read, and inspiring, as well as comprehensive.

Those are some of my "off the cuff" top picks. Of course, there are oodles and oodles more. Ecological anthro. started around 1950 with Julian Steward and now has various different theoretical tracks, so it has a rich literature.

 

[_Z_]

hi wil

I don’t see why G!d has to be an ideal, or how it limits anything from being ideal. An ideal what? Nor do I see G!d as an entity. Or as everything. I see G!d as the stuff that makes up everything, the space in between everything which allows us to define anything. Everything we see isn’t G!d but the expression of G!d, as evolution is as well.

interesting, then what is the whole? that too science cannot explain, and it would infer that everything is within god. if the universe was a miraculous creation then all its elements and aspects would necessarily be brought into the fold, all opposites brought into the neutral. there can be no aspect of the universe that is outside of the creation.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Hi,

There is so much to respond to that to do it point by point would take me forever. I dont think I think at 80 words per minute let alone type!! Despite 4 or 5 years with a PC I still soldier on with the same 2 fingers

Path and Juantoo, I do understand that my use of language does appear as though I lump all religions or belief systems together as tho they are exactly the same. This is partly the fault of my laziness in that I do not define at each mention when I specifically talk about the big 2. Christianity and Islam account for the religion of 60% of all people alive today and it is growing. Especially in Africa and the far east where Islam spreads like a cancer displacing long held traditional beliefs. Of all the other religions Hinduism is next best represented at 11%, Buddhism only accounts for 8%. Beliefs that are held by the likes of you Path dont even figure on the statistics.

I do not think I am definitely wrong about the evolutionary induced psychology and physiology that I presented as being the truth behind our collective love affair with the God concept. But what I will concede is that it is foolish of me to believe for 1 second that mankind can be expected to accept such an argument, let alone act upon it. And further I am well aware that many "thought out" beliefs held by those that truly think about what they believe are, at the very least, no threat to anyone. That I fail to find God in this wonderful cosmos is no loss to me. It is amazing and magnificent and awe inspiring with or without God. And I love every moment that I am alive and concious and able to marvel at its infinite complexity. But what I will do, as a direct result of the browbeating the two of you have subjected me to , is to think on how I can modify my language to be more respectful to those with a well developed and balanced spirituality.

I had not come across the science of religious ecology before and find it a fascinating approach to add to my many others. Any links would be gratefully received. In responding to what you were saying about fear in religion I am fully aware of what you said but would like to point out that this is still another manifestation of comfort. A sick one, yes, but a neurotic, sick-souled need within such individuals. Some people get off on fear and worry, the causes are simple psychological programming which I feel confident I do not need to explain. But I would add that they are one of the primary tools of religious mind control within Christianity and Islam. Why do I keep stating this on thread after thread? Because not enough people are. And it is high time all right minded people show that they are not just aware, but angry that religion is allowed to manipulate people into living miserable, fearful lives.

This thread has been wholesale hijacked for which I apologise to Zebidee. But it has given much food for thought and perhaps it might give birth to a new thread dealing specifically with the evolution, ecology and psychology of religion. A place for me to practice temperance in my heretical rants


regards to all

tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

Real faith.

Define real faith please.

You should ask God.

Do you have his email address?

 

[_Z_]

tao
this may sound strange but i actually believe you can ask god stuff, that is you can ask primarily as if calling out in the dark and you will receive an answer, it is all then a matter of interpretation. it goes further in that as we define and refine our search, you may find the tao another the Buddha and some will find the male creator god, i find answers always come in some shape and are relevant to your source.

the imagination is mans most powerful tool, it is that by which we have come so far yet is largely disregarded by science and education. secondly it is not bound to anything, it may ask for back up from the memory and info from the brain, yet in the main it belongs to something universal and unfathomable. perhaps god has an imagination too! ..therein somewhere lies the connection. perhaps true faith is found in sensing that connection as we would perceive someone standing right in front of us.

 

[path_of_one]

Christianity and Islam account for the religion of 60% of all people alive today and it is growing. Especially in Africa and the far east where Islam spreads like a cancer displacing long held traditional beliefs. Of all the other religions Hinduism is next best represented at 11%, Buddhism only accounts for 8%. Beliefs that are held by the likes of you Path dont even figure on the statistics.

Sort of. Statistically, I'm Christian (at least by some people's counts) and by others, Pagan/Pantheist, and by others... nothing at all. You're not the first to think my ideas are Buddhist, though I never realized the similarities until i studied Buddhism academically, which was well after most of them were formed!

I think we need to ditch the labels entirely, because I've met Christians and Muslims who run the gamut from my own sort of "hippie tree-huggin' Gaia-lovin' unity" flavor to the types that think holy wars are acceptable. I can't speak for Muslims, but I can say that Christianity is incredibly diverse depending on how it is incorporated into a culture. Maya-flavored Roman Catholicism is still an awful lot like their traditional polytheism (which itself was overlaid on a still-older shamanic tradition). In "Make Prayers to the Raven," you find that Christianity had been adopted but left the original religious beliefs virtually unscathed but that modern technology and consumerism was beginning to rip apart the fabric of good ecology. Every culture is different, and so much depends on how the synthesis takes effect, how the missionaries bring the new stuff in, etc.

I really think the growth of consumerism, capitalism, and our lives (and governments, and often religions) being run by corporations have more to do with people's desperation, fear, and hatred (that lead to the more sick implementation of religion) than religion itself. One can only separate religion out from the rest of culture for heuristic purposes. One must always remember that it doesn't really work that way.

I do not think I am definitely wrong about the evolutionary induced psychology and physiology that I presented as being the truth behind our collective love affair with the God concept. But what I will concede is that it is foolish of me to believe for 1 second that mankind can be expected to accept such an argument, let alone act upon it.

May I inquire, is much of this from Richard Dawkins? LOL It may help to read the many critiques of his work from various disciplines. "The Selfish Gene" has also received quite a bit of criticism, from within evolutionary studies as well as without. He's an evolutionary biologist, but that doesn't make him an expert in culture or religion, or human behavior, or psychology. We each have our own stuff to contribute in science, and he's just one of many voices (a loud voice, and a well-written one, but not necessarily a correct one). All I suggest is a careful reading from multiple disciplines before making informed choice about endorsement of any given theory. Most of the time, one theory is insufficient. It gets at a piece but is too limited to grasp the whole.

That I fail to find God in this wonderful cosmos is no loss to me. It is amazing and magnificent and awe inspiring with or without God. And I love every moment that I am alive and concious and able to marvel at its infinite complexity.

Tao, again- perhaps it is the labels that trip us up. Because you described exactly how I feel, but I think of the entire experience (me included) and the relationships in between-- as God. When we connect to one another, to the cosmos, to all that is... in that connection lies the Divine. This is why I say, whether there is heaven or hell is not the question... isn't this moment enough to inspire gratitude, awe, love? And if it is, why worry about the details? To connect, to love, to wonder... these are the things that are my spiritual life. My beliefs (basically, my theories and thoughts about that spiritual life) are just my best attempts to express what is really inexpressable, or to apply that love/gratitude/awe- that connectedness to others- to my life (ethics).

Any links would be gratefully received.

I listed some great case studies and overviews above. There is also a series on religion and ecology, but I'd have to look it up in my home library. Not sure about internet links. Since it is my field of study, I tend to stick to the journals and academic books. Much under cultural ecology discusses religion in its cultural context (including economic, political, etc.). Also, there's some good stuff in medical anthropology that gets at practical benefits of folk science/religion/magic (we really only see separation of these concepts with the modern Western world).

A sick one, yes, but a neurotic, sick-souled need within such individuals. Some people get off on fear and worry, the causes are simple psychological programming which I feel confident I do not need to explain.

But the root of this is not in the human psyche or in religion. If you look at the shamanic religions, at hunter-gatherer societies, you find little fear-driven belief, except to point to things that should be feared (for practical purposes) such as power animals. And even then, this fear is constructive (more akin to great respect and caution) than destructive (leading to hatred). The question is why so many people here/now embrace fear and worry over peace and love? It is not only a religious issue. Why do so many people have bias against other ethnic groups than their own, other nations, the opposite gender? Why are we all so afraid of each other? Why do we focus our lives on work, money, possessions, status? When it all leads to fear of loss, worry, stress, even earlier death and illness?

There is sickness, all right, but it is not because of religion. Its causes lie elsewhere, but bleed into our entire cultural lives, including religion.

Spirituality (and even organized religion) can either play into this fear and hatred, this very disadvantageous suite of traits... or it can rebel against it. So can atheism. And you see movements in both directions in nearly all major religions (and atheism). That which feeds fear, divides. It pits groups against each other, it proposes horrible ends if everyone does not get on board with its tenets (whether religious or not- can be applied to atheism, politics, you name it). That which feeds love, unites. It causes people to achieve peace by giving up their pitiful egoic desires and worries and to reach out and embrace others (again, whether religious or not).

And it is high time all right minded people show that they are not just aware, but angry that religion is allowed to manipulate people into living miserable, fearful lives.

Before we treat individuals as if they are cogs in a wheel, we must remember that each of us has the capacity to analyze our own thoughts and feelings. We can choose to end fear. Escaping the "people are victims of the elite" cry, and yet recognizing and rebelling against injustice, are both necessary. And it is not religion that manipulates people into misery. It is the illusion that you are what you buy, what you do, your university, your company, your address... your church. It is separatism, consumerism... materialism. It is this illusion that causes the richest people of the world (in the first world) to be miserable. And it is the consequences of these actions (over-consumption, exploitation) that causes much of the rest of the world's misery. Religion is just one of many institutions that may support a deeper, more problematic, and more troubling cause.

Sorry to write long and passionately... but I am very passionate about empowering people.

I am not an advocate for religion. I am an advocate for love.

A place for me to practice temperance in my heretical rants

I hope Z doesn't mind this fascinating turn...

And I still love your heretical rants. According to the conservative ones, I doubt you'd be any more or less heretical than me!

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I'd have to say that when I look out on the world, the universe, I don't see an all encompassing order. Things bump into each other until a sort of equilibrium develops, but I don't see in that apparent equilibrium a master plan, or jeweled system of ordering. In metaphysics we can have multi dimensional, nested systems of perfect whole-ness. But in reality, there doesn't seem to be this large and perfectly rounded circle of life where everything exists in a benevolent state of symbiotic perfection. So maybe God is this ambiguous quality of connectedness, but to be that it can only exist in some metaphysical jar of our own construction. If I'm going to talk to myself, I'd rather not pretend that one of me is God. But that's just me.

Chris

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

re: science and G!d, I see them coming ever closer and science being ever closer to understanding what G!d is. According to the agreement G!d/spirituality is still everything science can't explain. And the closer science gets to understanding everything, the amount they don't know increases proportionately.

Science and religion could be on the same page if it weren't for religion digging itself a hole with the infallibility shovel. But religion cannot abandon its worship of superstition and the gilded anachronism. For all intents and purposes, God is the biggest idol ever.

Chris

 

[path_of_one]

I wouldn't say order, necessarily (but then, I've said that all along). I think syncronicity is quite evident, and there is an elegance to the reuse and recycling of everything. And I don't know that equilibrium is right, either. It seems equilibrium needs the construction of opposing forces, and I suspect that such opposition are really just two sides of the same coin.

This is where I my thoughts ramble off-ward into something I can't effectively type...

By connectedness, I do not mean a concept or a conversation I have with God (or me, depending on your view). I mean an experience of one-ness with stuff that otherwise is considered "other." I think we construct the illusion of "otherness" and of "me," but we can transcend that. In the moments I am most connected, I do not have a dialogue at all. I am just in that exact moment, feeling the end of "me" and recognizing the deeper whatever-it-is that is all of it, and the connection itself.

I just love Einstein today, so I'll quote him again. He says it better than me:
"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe," a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creature and the whole of nature in its beauty."

 

[_Z_]

CCS
i would not say god is some kind of absolute order or that there is a definitive divine plan. i don’t think god is that inane, that ‘he’ would create something that is set to do this then that until X is reached, that would be fruitless and without any real purpose.

how would you define the whole!? can we not see everything as acting upon an essentially formless nothingness... if each and everything we define is an ‘it’, then ‘it’ is infinitely tangental [one description bounces of another etc to infinity], it appears that the whole cannot be defined although it must be.

poo [lols]

nice Einstein quote!
this part can be expanded i believe:

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us "universe," a part limited in time and space.

1. it must be compared with the unlimited [infinity].
2. the whole/reality is greater than the universe - fact!
3. the whole cannot be defined by its parts or even the sum of.

god is/should not be a superstition, belief not empty, we can and must learn that there can only be a god, the lack of a god is an impossible situation.

 

[China Cat Sunflower]

I don't contemplate a "whole", unless it's a big gaping hole at both ends! Earth is a closed ecological system. After all this time it makes sense that there are recycling mechanisms, otherwise the terrarium would fill up with crapitons and no life could exist. Just because our existence occurs in a biosphere doesn't mean that the rest of the universe is subject to the same kind of cyclical functionalism that we experience. And there are many, many gaps in the "seamless" fabric of life. It's not all as tight and cozy as it may seem at first.

Chris

 

[Tao_Equus]

I'd have to say that when I look out on the world, the universe, I don't see an all encompassing order. Things bump into each other until a sort of equilibrium develops, but I don't see in that apparent equilibrium a master plan, or jeweled system of ordering. In metaphysics we can have multi dimensional, nested systems of perfect whole-ness. But in reality, there doesn't seem to be this large and perfectly rounded circle of life where everything exists in a benevolent state of symbiotic perfection. So maybe God is this ambiguous quality of connectedness, but to be that it can only exist in some metaphysical jar of our own construction. If I'm going to talk to myself, I'd rather not pretend that one of me is God. But that's just me.

Chris

Science and religion could be on the same page if it weren't for religion digging itself a hole with the infallibility shovel. But religion cannot abandon its worship of superstition and the gilded anachronism. For all intents and purposes, God is the biggest idol ever.

Chris

I don't contemplate a "whole", unless it's a big gaping hole at both ends! Earth is a closed ecological system. After all this time it makes sense that there are recycling mechanisms, otherwise the terrarium would fill up with crapitons and no life could exist. Just because our existence occurs in a biosphere doesn't mean that the rest of the universe is subject to the same kind of cyclical functionalism that we experience. And there are many, many gaps in the "seamless" fabric of life. It's not all as tight and cozy as it may seem at first.

Chris

This all goes to prove I should just shut up and let you speak for me!! I wish I could say what you say so concisely and clearly.

Tao

 

[Tao_Equus]

tao
this may sound strange but i actually believe you can ask god stuff

I believe that it may be possible you can radiate your wishes out to Gaia and it will comply to a degree, but I do not believe Gaia is a God. It is a living organism of which you are one of its billions of transitory organs. Sometimes I get a real craving for certain foods that are rich in particular minerals. Perhaps it is not my craving but that of the 3 1/2lbs of bacteria I carry around with me in my body and without which I would be dead very quickly. Just because there 'may be' a connectedness within our biosphere does not prove anything about our notions of the cosmic scale. Most of the 'answered' prayers or wishes we have we actually work toward and would have achieved anyway without some outside intervention. Statistical analysis usually proves such claims of answer false.

Tao

 

[greymare]

EWEWWWWWWWWW 31/2 pounds bactereia. ewwwwww.

 

[17th Angel]

Do you have his email address?

That is you can't, you know tune in but it's all right. That is, I think it's not too bad.

 

[juantoo3]

I'd have to say that when I look out on the world, the universe, I don't see an all encompassing order. Things bump into each other until a sort of equilibrium develops, but I don't see in that apparent equilibrium a master plan, or jeweled system of ordering. In metaphysics we can have multi dimensional, nested systems of perfect whole-ness. But in reality, there doesn't seem to be this large and perfectly rounded circle of life where everything exists in a benevolent state of symbiotic perfection.

Good posts, Chris.

I struggle with a lot of this stuff too. I think it comes back to the limits of language, which in turn limits the thoughts of those who don't really consider this stuff. Throw in a hearty dose of mental entropy and you end up with a watered down brainless bowl of oatmeal dogma, which is easier to digest for weak constitutions.

We start with the dogma because that is what we are taught, even though (at least in my case) we intuit something at a very early age we have no words for. As we are indoctrinated and develop a library of language and dogma, we formulate our thoughts around our experiences and impressions. At some point the dogma conflicts with our experiences; and we are left to choose the ridicule of the masses for daring to color outside of the lines, or we surrender our experiences and intuition and give in to the pressure of our peers (who themselves are likely struggling with some similar crisis of understanding and belief). I don't have the words to describe what I intuit, so I will have to settle for your description and adopt it as my own...

In time it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. One ends up viewing the great mystery through someone else's eyes because that is what is socially acceptable.

So maybe God is this ambiguous quality of connectedness, but to be that it can only exist in some metaphysical jar of our own construction. If I'm going to talk to myself, I'd rather not pretend that one of me is God. But that's just me.

True, but if one hears external voices with no face and is...careless...enough to admit to it, the end result is a nice long stay in a padded cell wearing a nice white coat with extra long sleeves. I agree I do not speak for G-d, or pretend to know what thoughts (if thoughts they could truly be said to be) course through "his" mind.

"Connectedness" is an insufficient definition. Kinda like the menu isn't the food. Even if one could eat the menu, it is just not adequate to fully express a gourmet meal. I know I hear a lot of "airy-fairy, twinkle toes, dancing sky-clad under the full moon in the manicured forests" kinds of pipedream philosophies, and they are...ahem...mistaken. Just not even close.

But there seems, on an intuitive metaphysical level, something that ties all manner of life (animal, vegetable and mineral) together. There is something I cannot name, that courses through me and every living human, the same as it courses through the ant and the grasshopper and the whale and the eagle and the grass and the broccolli and the trees and the very earth we live on. I don't know if it is neutrinos or some other sub-atomic quantum particle, or if science will even ever make the "a-ha!" mental discovery and fully connect all the dots, but it is there. I can feel it. Maybe it is the stuff of auras. Maybe it is the stuff of ghosts and phantoms. Maybe it is the source of superstitions and misunderstandings. Maybe it is the cause of hair standing on the back of one's neck. Maybe it is the root of fear. Maybe it is our basic code of animal instinct and urges buried deep within our evolution. Maybe it is all of these things, and more.

But then, I might be mistaken. Perhaps it was just something I ate that gave me gas. This too, shall pass...

 

[juantoo3]

I believe that it may be possible you can radiate your wishes out to Gaia and it will comply to a degree, but I do not believe Gaia is a God. It is a living organism of which you are one of its billions of transitory organs. Sometimes I get a real craving for certain foods that are rich in particular minerals. Perhaps it is not my craving but that of the 3 1/2lbs of bacteria I carry around with me in my body and without which I would be dead very quickly. Just because there 'may be' a connectedness within our biosphere does not prove anything about our notions of the cosmic scale. Most of the 'answered' prayers or wishes we have we actually work toward and would have achieved anyway without some outside intervention. Statistical analysis usually proves such claims of answer false.

Tao

I am not going to disagree, but this is not complete.

How does this explain the intuitive prayers of a mother suddenly burdened for the safety of her son a thousand miles away...a son who at that very moment stops to pick up a coin from the sidewalk in front of him as a stray bullet passes right overhead, a bullet that surely would have killed him? Mere coincidence? The world is full of many many similar coincidences. I don't know how many times I have been spared from my own stupidity, and I seriously don't think all were coincidences.

Something or somebody is looking out for me. Maybe I have something I have to do before all is over for me in this existence, I don't know. But coincidence it ain't.

 

[Tao_Equus]

Sort of. Statistically, I'm Christian (at least by some people's counts) and by others, Pagan/Pantheist, and by others... nothing at all. You're not the first to think my ideas are Buddhist, though I never realized the similarities until i studied Buddhism academically, which was well after most of them were formed!

I was always aware you were not a Buddhist, if you look I referred to the description of your belief as Buddhist-like.

I think we need to ditch the labels entirely,.....

I really think the growth of consumerism, capitalism, and our lives (and governments, and often religions) being run by corporations have more to do with people's desperation, fear, and hatred (that lead to the more sick implementation of religion) than religion itself. One can only separate religion out from the rest of culture for heuristic purposes. One must always remember that it doesn't really work that way.

I wish we could ditch the labels but they are not imposed by you or I. As I said, I did not have to explain, you know exactly the causes that lead to the rot of fear in societies today. You do however in my estimation fail to see the importance of religious doctrine in this big picture. Both the Bible and Q'uran are jam packed full of fear inducing devices of psychological manipulation. Christ and Mohammed had one thing in common, neither of them wrote a single word. But we have volumes of commentary adapted to the needs of the politics of control. Those that compiled both volumes were politicians with the primary goal of holding power and wealth to themselves and nothing has changed. So to most people there is this degree of separation between what they think they believe and what they support. Over the last century there was a slide away from religious influence in politics but it is back with a vengeance. When politicians want to justify the unjustifiable they yell God or Allah from their pulpit lectern. And you are not allowed to question it. The sacrosanct invocation of God into the debate is never questioned. You are not allowed by cultural pressure to stand up and say, "you liar, you dont believe in God", when the likes of Bush uses that word. This filters right down through society to the radicals that sell their political muscle. Only by acknowledging the truth that these books are nothing other than lies and manipulations and demonstrating their purpose can we hope to empower people to think for themselves. And to find happiness.

May I inquire, is much of this from Richard Dawkins?

Not at all. You can find me on other threads with little in the way of words of support for Dawkins, though I do support his thesis general conclusions. What I believe is arrived at completely independently after a lifetime of looking at many areas of research. My main areas of interest are cosmology, psychology, anthropology, political history and, professionally, environmental science. But I read many science digests every week on a much broader range of subjects.



[/quote] Because you described exactly how I feel...[/quote] Anyone who looks at the cosmos and thinks for themselves will come up with a very similar way of expressing themselves. The only difference between us is this extra bit you call God. I dont have it because i dont see it, and most importantly to me in reaching that view, it does not need it to remain what it is.

But the root of this is not in the human psyche or in religion. If you look at the shamanic religions, at hunter-gatherer societies, you find little fear-driven belief, except to point to things that should be feared (for practical purposes) such as power animals.

I would tend to agree with that almost wholesale. But these societies are gone. Long gone. They are not representative of today's religions. I attempt to only deal with the present and where that present is headed. Anthropology of that nature is useful in understanding the deep roots of ritualised belief and to demonstrate the evolution of belief as a phenomena. But a couple of 1000 years ago in Imperial Rome some smart devious minds saw how they could use that as a powerful political tool. And it has been a tool that serves the rich and powerful ever since.

And even then, this fear is constructive (more akin to great respect and caution) than destructive (leading to hatred). The question is why so many people here/now embrace fear and worry over peace and love? It is not only a religious issue. Why do so many people have bias against other ethnic groups than their own, other nations, the opposite gender? Why are we all so afraid of each other? Why do we focus our lives on work, money, possessions, status? When it all leads to fear of loss, worry, stress, even earlier death and illness?

Because it is indoctrinated into them from a young age at bible school, by parental, community and cultural pressure. They are jailed in a prison of false reasoning. Nobody can be happy in jail.

There is sickness, all right, but it is not because of religion. Its causes lie elsewhere, but bleed into our entire cultural lives, including religion.

But religion is so often the first line of attack on the free psyche. To really understand how important this is then it is useful to look at the world of advertising. It works identically. It tells you you are lacking something, (you are a sinner, flawed), shows you a product, (salvation, a blissful everafter), and tells you how happy you would be possessing the product. But as with any product its 'feel good' factor is short lived, and you are miserable once more. Doubting the values thumped at you from the pulpit, feeling guilty for not really understanding or believing quite as you are told you should. Its details are more complex, but the principle of what I say I firmly believe to be true. The Churches are department stores of religious product. All of them sell lies.

That which feeds love, unites. It causes people to achieve peace by giving up their pitiful egoic desires and worries and to reach out and embrace others (again, whether religious or not).

We can see religions like that, like the Bahai, a one size fits all concoction that steals all the books to its reinterpretation. But by invoking God they will always run into trouble. Only by groups free of religious or political affiliation promoting unity and equality amongst man do we have any hope of countering the sharks who are forever there waiting to seize the reigns.

I am not an advocate for religion. I am an advocate for love.

Of that I have no doubt


Tao