The Trinity, from the JW view.

[Bishadi]

Bishadi, apologies if I seem rude.
We both appear to be exhibiting a predetermined notion; yours is that Jesus is not God, and mine is that He is, and that only through accepting this belief, confessing that one is a sinner, and offering up one's life to Christ as a living sacrifice, can one escape the judgement. And the judgement is this: by your unbelief, you will be allowed to remain in darkness for all eternity, by your own choice. (John 3:17-19)
The reason that I advance my position, even if rudely, is that I do not wish to see you condemn yourself to eternal darkness, and would like to invite you to come into the light. You may prefer the darkness, where you can keep the option of serving your own interests and feeding your own lusts from time to time, and many do prefer this. I just hope better for you than that.
If I tell you the truth and you don't believe it, is it still the truth?
May God richly bless you.

The USA...... and a little horn popped up within......

But thank you dearest for the compassionate plea, I feel your desire to stand as if glorious to save a soul.

Truth is once reality is understood, then no religious ideal of false hopes will be necessary.

For example; you judge me as a sinner as if I need forgiveness for what I do. But the difference is I know what I do each moment, and quite aware of what contributions and imposition to existence I do.

I need no forgiveness other than why I waited so long. It is the only item I will ever wonder about but then I recognize what the old teachers suggest from more than a dozen religions. What is coming is meant to be, I did not start it, I can not stop it.... it is this selfish idea that someone can actually correct all sins by simply confessing to another man and no responsibility to all your other actions will be imposed.

Darling, that idea is a lie.... sorry but reality is when the masses realize what I just told you, them preachers and all them decievers are going to have a huge amount of folk imposing their own judgment upon them.

So please..... we are in that last period, learn a bit and be responsible, please do not jump up and down as if you have an answer that is unique.

I feel your intent but you fail to remain honest to yourself which is why you are continuing a fib as if it is a fact.

 

[pattimax]

it is this selfish idea that someone can actually correct all sins by simply confessing to another man and no responsibility to all your other actions will be imposed.

I do not wish to communicate on a JW platform, so I will be brief. You are sadly mistaken if you think I am "saving souls for my own glory."

Jesus Christ is NOT simply a man, my past sins are undone, future sins are taken care of in prayer (I try to keep them to a minimum and take responsibility when I can), and I know that no other actions will be imposed.

For example; you judge me as a sinner as if I need forgiveness for what I do. But the difference is I know what I do each moment, and quite aware of what contributions and imposition to existence I do.

No one is judging you as a sinner. We were all born sinners.
You are "quite aware of what contributions and imposition you make to existence?" Well, okay. Anything else?

...continuing a fib as if it is a fact.

( SIGHS, SHAKES HEAD, AND QUIETLY WALKS AWAY...)

 

[Bishadi]

Jesus Christ is NOT simply a man, my past sins are undone,

So any lie and any thing you ever did wrong was undone? So if I talk to your parents, they would not remember any lies or missgivings you ever imposed? Come on now dearest, you lied again!

future sins are taken care of in prayer

Another fib, did you know or do you know whom you are lying too now?

(I try to keep them to a minimum and take responsibility when I can)

Then you think it is OK to fib right here as you have with no responsibility?

and I know that no other actions will be imposed.

Oh you do? You 'know' for certain?

No one is judging you as a sinner. We were all born sinners.

But then again, what does the prophecies suggest, 'the children will have knowledge upon their minds' means that when the truth exists, then no longer will they have to learn the truth, incorrectly.

If each person on this globe maintained their individual beliefs without using reality as a guide, then war would be all over the globe, religious right wingers would be killing all over the globe as famine, missgiving and corruption run rampant...........

we are there now........... an dear you are not offering any good to others simply by representing the continuance of the lies.

 

[wil]

.... we are in that last period, learn a bit and be responsible, please do not jump up and down as if you have an answer that is unique...

Oh you do? You 'know' for certain? ...we are there now... ...

I love stand up.

 

[Bishadi]

I love stand up.

I agree with your logic in the sense of one minute a suggestion that one does not have and yet, represent that I do.

I 100% agree with the comedy and how you shared the reasoning.

Just the same as copernicus questioned Ptolemy when Ptolemy was accepted and had the math to prove how and why the roaming planets (bodies) roamed the sky of the flat earth, or center of everything.

The difference is simply, what is being shared is not unique in worded form but that never have the sciences been perfected to back it up. That to understand 'light' as energy upon mass actually combines each branch of knowledge.

What is funny, is most every branch has been pointing to the same exact form, since the beginning of time and it is not that the sciences or philosophies or religions are completely incorrect, it is that they left out certain aspects or properties to prove the model true.

So like you, skepticism has always remained until each branch was observed and each line items of math assessed and each and every question or phenomenon checked and rechecked.

Or simply, if you can find something material that may assist in my further understanding, please by all means share.

This thread is about the trinity; which is in fact a pure objective but to simply comprehend the reality and be able to back it up with true knowledge......... then the trinity is as such:

all mass, all energy and all time: ONE: the total: the trinity of existence: God.

Now if this is all true, will you be able to recognize it?

 

[wil]

Or simply, if you can find something material that may assist in my further understanding, please by all means share.

Namaste Bishadi,

Why would you now accept something material to further your understanding when you seem to avoid it now?

Scripture is a funny thing, there are enough vagaries and contradictions that most can prove whatever they'd like. That they argue vehemently that they are correct and everyone elses interpretation is wrong is the paradox itself.

As for the time is at hand, yup, has been for 3,000 years or 3,000 millenia, in any respect, tis nothing to get excited about, just continue to do your best today. Surely you wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation of the unpredictable (dispite those that claim otherwise)

peace

 

[Bishadi]

Why would you now accept something material to further your understanding when you seem to avoid it now?

Before reaching 20 years of age over 5 separate branches of theology had been studied, and not just read but to truly understand.

Scripture is a funny thing, there are enough vagaries and contradictions that most can prove whatever they'd like. That they argue vehemently that they are correct and everyone elses interpretation is wrong is the paradox itself.

Hence the confusion to the children.

In the old day, they said man came from mud (dust), but now most know that is not true. (in the literal sense)

Creation was thought to begin the earth 6k years ago, and dinosaur bones prove this untrue.

Darwin’s evolution is ridiculed by many branches of theology and most stay away from the debate because of the conflicts.

Many many representations share each of their opinions as true and then by further education our children find these beliefs untrue and even as one stands on the podium stating…’this is the word of God’… most on the globe know God does not write words, man/woman does.

IN every moment of every second, we each evolve with knowledge and comprehension, but do people admit the pattern of evolution? No! Because a set of old works written millennia ago does not have the ability to account for the progression as it conflicts with creation.

Here is the dichotomy of all time;

A group that supports biblical creations has shown a mathematical error in the physics currently accepted that shows that if 2 items associate and have a progression greater than the sum of the individual units, that the math behind the physical sciences must be wrong.

Then the evolutionary group suggests that an environment can cause change to a species to evolve in which to retain the life’s existence.

The point is Creationist can prove a reversal of entropy which in fact is how the environment affects evolutions and the evolutionary folk will not accept creation as the various living species proves the progress of evolution but maintain that entropy can only go one direction.

So in a sense, each are beating up the other yet supporting the other in the mathematical physics written.

 

[Dream]

So in a sense, each are beating up the other yet supporting the other in the mathematical physics written.

Its good we're starting better to hear your perspective. Education creates a desire for unity of the sciences, and very few people get to study 5 branches by age 20. In the thread on sin, you were talking about an upcoming, permanent change in the human race. You seemed to be saying it was because of the new information age that is on its way. I certainly do think that many old information barriers will soon be broken, but I would not say that all religions will fall. Maybe our faith will bear up under this final inspection, and what is wrong with that? Isn't this what is mentioned in Daniel 7:26 ?

 

[mee]

And the Court
(Lit., "Judgment.")
itself proceeded to sit, and his own rulership they finally took away, in order to annihilate [him] and to destroy [him] totally.
(Lit., "to the end.")
Daniel 7;26


talking about Daniel 7;26


By decree of the Great Judge, Jehovah God, the horn that blasphemed God and harassed his "holy ones" will have the same experience as the Roman Empire, which persecuted the early Christians. Its rulership will not continue. Neither will that of inferior hornlike "kings" that came out of the Roman Empire.

 

[Bishadi]

Its good we're starting better to hear your perspective. Education creates a desire for unity of the sciences, and very few people get to study 5 branches by age 20.

Nothing quite like knowledge for the human expereince and see with the eyes of your brother, offers diversity in compassionate associations. To understand why beliefs cause such division, takes the like observance to understand the cause.

In the thread on sin, you were talking about an upcoming, permanent change in the human race. You seemed to be saying it was because of the new information age that is on its way.

We are in that information age. From comprehending evolution to building a nuclear weapon. It's simply at the finger tips.

I certainly do think that many old information barriers will soon be broken, but I would not say that all religions will fall.

And to remain perfectly logical in your like assessment, what would you consider the only thing that could cause such a universal change? Could it be knowledge?

Maybe our faith will bear up under this final inspection, and what is wrong with that? Isn't this what is mentioned in Daniel 7:26 ?

No.

That line is not about a coming person, but about the existing corruption of the most rude power on our globe, capitalism. That inbred concept that shares that the war of business is more important than the people.

That unifying horn is the USA. It is the power over all nations that our country uses that is damaging the globe as we stand.

it is when the people have knowledge equally that peace reign's everlasting.

remember, even as the prophecies were written, what most see are the interpretations and that is what confuses most.

 

[Dream]

I was referring to the court that would sit in judgment against that 'horn'. In order for a court to sit, it has to have all of the facts about the case. Maybe that's where the Information Age comes in. Whether it is the USA or some other entity is very difficult to assume. I don't know why you picked the USA and capitalism as the horn. We're not the ones who invented capitalism, and capitalism is really a direct result of democracy, which is championed by France. Besides, its an ancient Jewish scripture, so what does USA have to do with it? We're only 250 years old.

 

[Bishadi]

I was referring to the court that would sit in judgment against that 'horn'. In order for a court to sit, it has to have all of the facts about the case.

Name a court in the entire world that is governed by facts. OJ is free, and the Bush gang fires any who do not follow suit and then you have other places that allow religion to set the tone of the ‘court.’

Maybe that's where the Information Age comes in. Whether it is the

USA or some other entity is very difficult to assume. I don't know why you picked the USA and capitalism as the horn.

You just confirmed it. The form is now inert, that each individual can make sense of the methodology. That to accept a profit is normal. Hey.. it makes perfect sense.

What I must point out is it is quite uniform to the western ideals that the self and what the self can take (opportunities in business) is how any american can stand out and 'take a piece of the american dream.' ..... What this has done is make selfishness a norm and the single greatest cause to all 'evil' is man's selfishness. As every evil to exist is based from this exact cause.

We're not the ones who invented capitalism, and capitalism is really a direct result of democracy,

And every democratic society that ever existed had failed and even now it is failing again. The biggest problem with the model is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The separation of classes continues. The consolidation and stirring of goods, knowledge and opportunity continues to be governed by corporate America.

What most do not comprehend is that America (the US) was created by the very people of the period who were sick of the corruption of the politics of Britain, France and many of the rest. It is why ‘we the people’ was created but tell us all, are the tariffs, the sanctions and the isolating of people, the model of a peaceful world? No.

Is it good that the most powerful entities on the globe are the corporations? That the entities that govern every walk of life can change their priorities of which country to impose on and which receive benefits all based on what they have to offer in resources. Millions are dying because of hunger as certain companies reap the benefit and profits all the while filling their pockets rather than give a hoot about feeding the people. I am not a socialist nor lived in any region to observe this first hand, but I am capable of reading and seeking information to make my own opinions without having the media or some preacher telling me how it is.

Honesty and integrity govern my choices, thoughts and opinions and not a person, place or thing will ever tell me what to think.

I stand for the truth, period! And the funny part is, only by being truthful compassionate and of good intent will I ever survive past my physical life and you can see any religion for that fact.

 

[Dream]

Name a court in the entire world that is governed by facts.

One court that will judge with equity:

Psalm 98:6-9 With trumpets and the sound of the horn make a joyful noise before the King, the LORD! Let the sea roar, and all that fills it; the world and those who dwell in it! Let the floods clap their hands; let the hills sing for joy together before the LORD, for he comes to judge the earth. He will judge the world with righteousness, and the peoples with equity.

.....any american can stand out and 'take a piece of the american dream.' ..... What this has done is make selfishness a norm and the single greatest cause to all 'evil' is man's selfishness.
...
And every democratic society that ever existed had failed and even now it is failing again. The biggest problem with the model is the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The separation of classes continues. The consolidation and stirring of goods, knowledge and opportunity continues to be governed by corporate America.
...
It is why ‘we the people’ was created but tell us all, are the tariffs, the sanctions and the isolating of people, the model of a peaceful world? No.
...
Millions are dying because of hunger......I am capable of reading and seeking information to make my own opinions without having the media or some preacher telling me how it is.
...
Honesty and integrity govern my choices, thoughts and opinions and not a person, place or thing will ever tell me what to think.
...
I stand for the truth, period! And the funny part is, only by being truthful compassionate and of good intent will I ever survive past my physical life and you can see any religion for that fact.

You are right that democratic societies, which are human governments, ultimately fail. The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government built upon factual historical evidence, however the onus is not merely on a specific kind of human government. Many things you brought up (love of money, honesty, etc) are concepts from the Bible. 'We the People' is just one more piece of evidence for the case file. It is actually a strong argument against your opinion that humanity can save itself through knowledge and popular goodness. The theory of improvement through education is one that has failed many times. The judgment of all the earth and 'Seas' is not really a secret but is basic Bible information, which you cannot afford to be unaware of.

 

[Bishadi]

The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government built upon factual historical evidence, however the onus is not merely on a specific kind of human government.

Humans worry me more than anything that exists since they are who created just about any thing, idea and all the definitions of evil.

Think about it. Please name one otherwise.

Then you say something about judgment based on factual historical data yet you believe with all your heart that any who confess to JC and believe he died for your sins, then all them records should be forgotten/forgiven… some of them church going folk, politicians ..ted haggard(s), give/take a bunch of money to/from the church hoping them records are no longer existing.

But we all know that isn’t possible, what is done exists. Nothing can change that.

Each and every act imposed to existence exists! And then them negative ones, like selfishly continuing a fib based on complacency, live and are affecting other people, adversely, all because someone wanted to remain to their own selfish needs and not care that everything they do is now existing.

Because they think all them records are gonna be forgiven.

Many things you brought up (love of money, honesty, etc) are concepts from the Bible. 'We the People' is just one more piece of evidence for the case file. It is actually a strong argument against your opinion that humanity can save itself through knowledge and popular goodness. The theory of improvement through education is one that has failed many times. The judgment of all the earth and 'Seas' is not really a secret but is basic Bible information, which you cannot afford to be unaware of.

Well knowledge in a form that is literally fact in the sense of empirically established has ever been completed. No religion or science is perfected. Philosophies come the closest, since human emotions are universal less the environmental influences. (cultures etc..) but no belief of a single theology has ever maintained a universal acceptability.

And never has a uniform teaching been established. For example: even now this country has difficulties (universal) with accepting the term ‘evolution.’

Please allow a few lines of knowledge to be read and not allow a belief to impede your understanding. A paradigm shift is on the horizon and it makes sense to at least take your shot at thinking on the concepts and if it works maintaining the teaching of compassion as well adds a little physical reality and comprehension… you make the choice but remember when you choose, lying to yourself will do more damage to a person than anything existing.

Lose the self preservation and use your heart….. the truth stands firm there.

 

[Dream]

Then you say something about judgment based on factual historical data yet you believe with all your heart that any who confess to JC and believe he died for your sins, then all them records should be forgotten/forgiven

Please allow a few lines of knowledge to be read and not allow a belief to impede your understanding. A paradigm shift is on the horizon and it makes sense to at least take your shot at thinking on the concepts and if it works maintaining the teaching of compassion as well adds a little physical reality and comprehension… you make the choice but remember when you choose, lying to yourself will do more damage to a person than anything existing.

We do not know each other, and it is ridiculous for you to assume what my point of view is when it comes to Jesus. As for your seminaries, their honor depends upon your knowledge. As for me, it is entirely possible I have pursued the exact same questions as you. Possibly some different ones.

It is plain that he wanted no one on Terminus capable of working out the future in advance. Seldon wanted us to proceed blindly -- and therefore correctly -- according to the law of mob psychology.....My idea had been to maintain balance of power, no more than that. It was only afterward that I thought I saw a pattern in events; but I've done my level best not to act on that knowledge." -- Salvor Hardin in Isaac Asimov's Foundation

 

[mee]

You are right that democratic societies, which are human governments, ultimately fail. The Bible talks about a judgment against all human government quote]

IT CERTAINLY DOES DANIEL 2;44




And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite; daniel 2;44



And that heavenly kingdom is now well established inline with bible prophecy and chronology , its all happening in the time of the end ,the kingdom was set up in 1914 and Jesus recieved his kingship .

and its all inline with bible prophecy and chronolgy


and i have put my vote in along with a GREAT CROWD from all nations
revelation 7;9-10

 

[Dream]

I don't know, Mee. I can understand your scripture arguments, but not the 1914 ones. In fact, I'm here at this forum to gather information, so I appreciate your input. I thought we were instructed not to believe Jesus has returned unless it is obvious. Also, Bushadi brought up the paradox of vicarious atonement, which is a legitimate gripe against Christians. I thought for sure you would have tossed that doctrine, but you seem to agree to it at least partly. I've also got serious issues with a pre-existing Jesus. Are you flexible about what you mean by 'Pre-existing'? Jeremiah was 'Known' before he was born, but I thought that it was a figure of speech and treated similar statements about Jesus the same way.

 

[Bishadi]

Daniel 2:44

44`And in the days of these kings raise up doth the God of the heavens a kingdom that is not destroyed -- to the age, and its kingdom to another people is not left: it beateth small and endeth all these kingdoms, and it standeth to the age.

The truth exists permanently even as a rock within the mountain of knowledge.

That although some may accept a path, the only path that will exist forever is the truth.

As some suggest 'their' sect is the correct one, the ONE true form will allow each to be understood.

so when the truth is understood, then all the various religions will end....

there is no religion on this earth perfected; first truth!

No where will you find what you seek within a belief and if professed as true, then another lie is born.

So in order for the truth to be real and purely identified, then is must allow the knowledge of things to be understood.

Proverbs 14:5
A truthful witness does not deceive, but a false witness pours out lies

 

[Dream]

Mee, that is, I'm gathering information but also pursuing the end of mesmerization, which I mentioned to Quahom in another thread.

 

[seattlegal]

Maybe our faith will bear up under this final inspection, and what is wrong with that? Isn't this what is mentioned in Daniel 7:26 ?

No.

That line is not about a coming person, but about the existing corruption of the most rude power on our globe, capitalism. That inbred concept that shares that the war of business is more important than the people.

That unifying horn is the USA. It is the power over all nations that our country uses that is damaging the globe as we stand.

it is when the people have knowledge equally that peace reign's everlasting.

remember, even as the prophecies were written, what most see are the interpretations and that is what confuses most.

Is it still surprising how many people will look for a scapegoat rather than to look in the mirror?