Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas leader, becomes Christian

Quahom1 said:
Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night.

v/r

Q

by the bye, reading the entire thread might prove interesting to you.
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salam Quahom1,

I think you have confused between what is known as taqiyya (according to Shiaa), and hypocrasy. The difference between the two is striking. There is no verse in the Quran which ask Muslims to LIE. Taqiyya is to conceal your faith when there is fear of being tortured and killed as the case were with Muslims in the Mecca, and this is what is mentioned in the Quran.

Hypocrasy is completley rejected in Islam, and the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) even in his jokes said nothing but the truth.

The following site may give you more insights, Quahom1:
al-Taqiyya/Dissimulation (Part III)

Is Mr. Abbas a model of Islam???!!!! as Saltmeister said we shouldnt read religion in the doings of those who practise it. Unfortunately,most of them are not committed.
 
Quahom1 said:
There are many my friend. How shall I start?

Let's start with the soldier:




Matthew 8:5-13 is long, but I encourage your to take the time to read it.
5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." 8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. (Matthew 8:5-13; see Luke 7:1-10)



​
We can learn at least five truths from this inspiring episode.
First, the centurion was kindhearted, for he cared for one of his servants. The centurion asking help for a servant indicates desperation as if he were a moral father, perhaps. He certainly was a caring head of household and commander. Also, the parallel passage in Luke says that some elders of the Jews encouraged Jesus to help the soldier, pleading, "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue" (Luke 7:4-5).
What is the timeless truth drawn from this first point? It is fitting for a soldier to be helpful to a nation that he enters. The (local) elders of the Jews praise this gentile who built their synagogue. It is possible to be godly and to serve in the military, wielding a sword.
Second, the centurion shows some humility. He tells the Lord that he is not worthy of Jesus coming under his roof. This wins the heart of Jesus, catching his attention. Such humility is doubly important for persons in command. Sometimes power corrupts good character, causing us to become arrogant (which is different from confidence, a virtue).
Third, the centurion understands the chain of command. If he tells a soldier to do something, then the soldier does it. In a similar, but spiritual way, if Jesus tells the disease to depart, it will obey. The centurion recognizes that Jesus has spiritual authority that transcends time and place. Jesus does not have to be on location to heal, so the centurion wisely discerns. This is truly a remarkable insight.
Fourth, it is now important to note what Jesus says and does, and what he does not say or do. He honors the centurion’s request and heals his servant. Next, he praises the centurion to high heaven for his insight, using superlative language: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith" (verse 10), not as great as the gentile commander’s faith. What does Jesus not say or do? He does not denounce the centurion as a military servant of Rome. He never says, "Leave the army, for it is corrupt and intrinsically evil! If you don’t, I’ll never heal your servant!" As a moral example and teacher, if he wanted to point out behavior and practices that harm the people doing them, then he would have done so. But he didn’t.
Fifth and finally, we civilians must honor soldiers and other military personnel. If they need help in practical ways, then let’s pitch in and help. Let’s bring healing not only to a soldier himself or herself, but to his or her household, as well. If Jesus did this, then why should we ignore his example?

Peter and Cornelius, a centurion



Doesn’t a Roman centurion deserve divine censure on the face of it? After all, we’re reading the New Testament that teaches nothing but "peace and love," right? Note God’s assessment of the commander:
1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:1-4)



​
big hopes for all mankind (and all men). Christian beliefs that allow for no vengeance.

v/r

Q
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I ve really enjoyed reading this episode, Quahom1.

I will come back with my analysis later. My sister needs the computer.
 
Alex P said:
Not to be apart of them. :) And many christians are not... Which is good.. :) I would rather be seen a "traitor" than go and kill others. And those motivated by love and peace also should be like this. For god's kingdom is not of this realm... So why would those of faith fight and die for a kingdom that they wish not to be part of?
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The issue isnt to go and kill, Alex P...the issue is what will you do if you are attacked? will you give love to those who attack you?

Do you mean that people of faith shouldnt fight (even if they are subject to slavery, attack and exploitation), and that those who fight are of no faith??!! How come??!! :confused::confused:
 
The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?
 
Paradise for some evil-doers
(Luke 23:43) and Jesus said to him, 'Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
 
dailogue is the best said:
Do you mean that people of faith shouldnt fight (even if they are subject to slavery, attack and exploitation), and that those who fight are of no faith??!! How come??!! :confused::confused:
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Yes, I have shown love to those who have attacked me and to those whom I have attacked.. :)

If you have faith(trust) in love and in peace.... Then it would be "false promotion...."

Violence, killing, agression, hate... They have no part in Love or peace.

Oh I am a vegan!!! But... I do occasionally like to eat fish..... Or some lamb chops from time to time... Well... Then you are not a vegan...
 
Quahom1 said:
Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you.
Click to expand...

Which passage is that?
 
Netti-Netti said:
Which passage is that?
Click to expand...

The passages are as follows:

"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief, except under compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty." Sura 16:106

"Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution (prevention), that ye may Guard yourselves from them (prevent them from harming you.) But Allah cautions you (To remember) Himself; for the final goal is to Allah." Sura 3:28


According to this verse a Muslim can pretend to befriend infidels (in violation of the teachings of Islam) and display adherence with their unbelief to prevent them from harming him.
Under the concept of Takeyya and short of killing another human being, if under the threat of force, it is legitimate for Muslims to act contrary to their faith. The following actions are acceptable:
  • Drink wine, abandon prayers, and skip fasting during Ramadan.
  • Renounce belief in Allah.
  • Kneel in homage to a deity other than Allah.
  • Utter insincere oaths.
Sura 16:106 - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Sura 3:28 - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."
Sura 40:28- A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.
Sura 2:225 - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"
Sura 66:22- "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.

Muslims are allowed to lie to unbelievers in order to defeat them. The two forms are:

Taqiyya - Saying something that isn't true, such as Mohammad deceiving the Meccans to gain access to the city, in order to overtake it. Sura 9:3

Kitman - Lying by omission. An example would be when Muslim apologists quote only a fragment of verse 5:32 (that if anyone kills "it shall be as if he had killed all mankind") while neglecting to mention that the rest of the verse (and the next) mandate murder in undefined cases of "corruption" and "mischief."

I'm not saying that following one's faith is wrong, but I know I wouldn't be able to tell truth from falshood, spoken by one who can lie by God, to me, because I am not a believer in Islam.

v/r

Q
 
dailogue is the best said:
The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?
Click to expand...

I am still waiting for your reply,Quahom1:)
 
dailogue is the best said:
The eposide you have stated with, Quahom1, is quite interesting. Also, the interpertation is more interesting.

So now we may draw some conclusions:

1- Since Jesus (pbuh) praised that soldier, then "love your enemies" may have another meaning.It may be similar to this hadith wherein the prophet Muhamed (pbuh) said:"Assist your brother, whether he be an oppressor or an oppressed. 'But how shall we do it when someone is an oppressor?' Muhammad said, 'Assisting an oppressor is by forbidding and withholding that person from oppression.This is how you help him”. Narrated by Anas.

2- Mosab converted to Christianity because he sees that "love your enemies" is the solution to the Palestinian/ Israeli struggle. Now, with what you have said, Quahom1, we learn that conflict and war are matters of life, and Christians have to get to the field to defend their rights. And that's their right, of course. So, Christianity praise those who fight for their lands, and dignity. And that's logic and reasonable.

3- This fact may lead us to another important question:" since Christianity supports soldiers, and fighters, and since those soldiers are Christians, what is about the "HOW" to fight in the Christian perspective? What are "to do" or "not to do" in conflicts and wars according to Christianity?
Click to expand...

1. If you are regarding Jesus helping the centurian as a way of keeping him from becoming frustrated and opressive in order to try and get his way, the validity of the statement Mohammad made, is logical. However, consideration must be given to the fact that the centurian approached Jesus not as a soldier per se, but as a man, who was humble in his knowledge of who he was, standing before Jesus. The centurian felt unworthy before the Son of God, yet decided still to ask for Jesus' help. There was no guile or arrogance in his heart. He didn't care that he was a foriegner, asking a Jewish man for help. He was a man, asking the Lord for help. He also had no doubt that Jesus could help him, but I suspect there was a part of him concerned about whether Jesus "would" help him. Yet he asked anyway, and his petition was granted.

2. Mosab's reasons to convert to Christianity are not fully known by anyone but Mosab and God. However, part of his reasoning is that the concept of "Love your enemies" (e.g. look past the anger and frustration and pain, and see the value of the "enemies" themselves as worthy human beings, and treat them as such), strongly appealed to Mosab. Occam's razor...("All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.").

Standing up for one's dignity, should be the fight of every man, not just Christians, or Americans. That is a choice and action worthy of praise.

3. Christianity supports all people of all walks of life Dialogue, even and especially non-Christians. As far as "how" to fight, well the first rule is this:

"He who fights monsters should look into it that he himself does not become a monster. When you gaze long into the Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you." (Neitzsche, I believe).

For a Christian to fight, the cause to fight must be just, and the fight itself must be justly conducted. What determines the cause to be just can get very complex, however there are core rules that must be in place.

a. The war is conducted by a legitimate civil authority
b. The war is based on a just cause
c. The war is waged with the right intention
d. The war is undertaken only as a last resort
e. The war is fought on the basis of a reasonable chance of success
f. The war has an establishment of a superior peace as its goal
g. The war is waged with proper discrimination between combatants and non-combatants.

It get's real complicated after that, because "man" is complicated.

Your turn...;)

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
1. If you are regarding Jesus helping the centurian as a way of keeping him from becoming frustrated and opressive in order to try and get his way, the validity of the statement Mohammad made, is logical. However, consideration must be given to the fact that the centurian approached Jesus not as a soldier per se, but as a man, who was humble in his knowledge of who he was, standing before Jesus. The centurian felt unworthy before the Son of God, yet decided still to ask for Jesus' help. There was no guile or arrogance in his heart. He didn't care that he was a foriegner, asking a Jewish man for help. He was a man, asking the Lord for help. He also had no doubt that Jesus could help him, but I suspect there was a part of him concerned about whether Jesus "would" help him. Yet he asked anyway, and his petition was granted.
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i find this scenario very interesting considering that romans were occupying jerusalem, and this roman soldier had power over other soldiers and allegiance to caesar, we find humbling himself before Jesus, and asking Him for help on a spiritual level because he recognized His authority beyond this world.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
i find this scenario very interesting considering that romans were occupying jerusalem, and this roman soldier had power over other soldiers and allegiance to caesar, we find humbling himself before Jesus, and asking Him for help on a spiritual level because he recognized His authority beyond this world.
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Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.
 
Quahom1 said:
Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.
Click to expand...
Which brings the thread right back to Mosab (the OP). Mosab is the centurian, asking Jesus for help, in healing that which he loves most. The only "person" he has found, that stated could and would help if asked, and Mosab sounds like he has taken a "leap of faith", for that which he loves most...:eek: A humble, but righteous request, before Jesus, I should think.

v/r

Q
 
Quahom1 said:
Blaze, he wasn't asking for help on a spiritual level (he knew Jesus as Lord God), he was petitioning Jesus for physical help for one he loved and cared for, as well as confirmation that he (the centurian), could approach the Lord, and be received well. He wanted to know from God, that he and his, mattered to God...

The centurian's faith was never in question...the strength of that faith however, amazed even Jesus, as it came from an outsider.
Click to expand...

I understand what you are saying; however, to know Jesus is Lord God is thru the Spirit, and although the healing is physical, it is thru the power of the Spirit, so it is spiritual.
 
BlaznFattyz said:
I understand what you are saying; however, to know Jesus is Lord God is thru the Spirit, and although the healing is physical, it is thru the power of the Spirit, so it is spiritual.
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Ok, that makes perfect sense.
 
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