Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Hamas leader, becomes Christian

[Quahom1]

Dialogue, you have changed the subject six times, and have not answered the heart of the matter concerning my questions, yet I have answered your questions, as presented. I opine that you are not interested in the Christian thought on this matter. I think our dialogue is concluded.

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[dailogue is the best]

Minimum force required to neutralize the situation. That is the rule. Then, rebuild, and make allies. It worked in Germany, Japan, Italy, and it could work in the middle east, save but for the requirements of Islam.

edit: one of the major problems is the Islamic mandate to "lie" to non-believers, in order to save the heart of the muslim. Abbass was a perfect example of that today, when he told Ms. Rice Palestinians would recognize Israel as a soveriegn nation, then told the Palestinians in Arabic, they would never recognize Israel...lied outright. How can there be a trust of any kind?

Look, Quahom1. Abbas and Rice( the American administrative) know the game so well, and they played it artfully. Dont get so impressed by what the media is saying. Palestinians no longer believe in peace with Israel. Mr. Arafat had assigned many peace treaties with Israel, which promised of Palestine as an established state. what is the result : no peace, and no Palestinian state.

Abbas doesnt reflect the Palestinians' stand from Israel. That's why, he didnt dare to declare Isreal as a soveriegn nation. Rice and Bush know this truth so deeply. They know that it is only hamas which represents the Palestinians' stand, the stand which "Bush" isnt pleased with, and he wants to chaneg it even with force, though, it is a choice of all the Palestinians.(double standard of Bush:democracy for us, and not for them).
Abbas is a man of interest. That's clear to both Palestians, who dont trust him, and to Bush and his administration, who exploit such selfish authorative man for their interest

p.s: we have turned this forum to a political one, Quahom1.

Im ready to any question, but dont forget I was the first who asked:"how Christianity deals with matters of war and conflicts? that's was my central question. If you answer it, I m ready for any question.

How can dialogue be concluded with "dailogue". Quahom1?

 

[Quahom1]

Look, Quahom1. Abbas and Rice( the American administrative) know the game so well, and they played artfully. Dont get so impressed by what the media is saying. Palestinians no longer believe in peace with Israel. Mr. Arafat had assigned many peace treaties with Israel, which promised of Palestine as an established state. what is the result : no peace, and no Palestinian state.

Abbas doesnt reflect the Palestinians' stand from Israel. That's why, he didnt dare to declare Isreal as a soveriegn nation. Rice and Bush know this truth so deeply. They know that it is only hamas which represents the Palestinians' stans. Abbas is a man of interest. That's clear to Palestians who dont trust him, and to bush and his administration who exploit such selfish authorative man for their interest

p.s: we have turned this forum to a political one, Quahom1.

Im ready to any question, but dont forget I was the first who asked:"how Christianity deals with matters of war and conflicts? that's was my central question. If you answer it, I m ready for any question.

can dialogue be concluded with "dailogue"?

I did answer your question my friend, and I was specific.

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Q

edit: I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted to hear.

 

[dailogue is the best]

I did answer your question my friend, and I was specific.

v/r

Q

edit: I'm sorry it's not the answer you wanted to hear.

you didnt, Quahom1. Come on. What is the answer?

 

[Quahom1]

you didnt, Quahom1. Come on. What is the answer?

Minimum force required to neutralize the situation. That is the rule. Then, rebuild, and make allies. It worked in Germany, Japan, Italy, and it could work in the middle east, save but for the requirements of Islam.

Yes sir, I did...

 

[dailogue is the best]

Minimum force required to neutralize the situation. That is the rule. Then, rebuild, and make allies. It worked in Germany, Japan, Italy, and it could work in the middle east, save but for the requirements of Islam.

Yes sir, I did...

Is this the Bible teachings? I asked about what does Christianity says of dealing with war and conflicts?

 

[Saltmeister]

I'm talking about Christianity, Quahom1. What does it say in case you are in a war state? does it indicate you how to deal with the situation?

Christianity isn't statecraft. Christianity is about the individual. It is not about foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government. It does not concern itself with political systems, political structures, law systems, constitutions, who gets executive, legislative, judicial or military powers, war or rules of engagement.

That may be Islam's role and purpose but it isn't supposed to be important to the way of the Christian. Many Christians do that, but IMHO these Christians are misguided. It was never supposed to be our job to dabble in statecraft for religious purposes because a political system and its associated interactions is a secular entity, no matter how religious you try to make it. I don't consider statecraft a spiritual pursuit in the case of Christianity. Other religions may dabble in statecraft, but that is because it was part of the purpose of that religion.

or does it just states: "love your enemies"?

Some people only speak of the ideology of "love your enemies" but the real "love your enemies" is the "love your enemies" that comes naturally and directly from the heart.

This is why it's so important for us to be individuals, to do things our own way and not be slaves or agents of an ideology or political system, not to conform to the ideals of an organisation, but to choose for ourselves, how to think, behave and believe, what is right to do, noble, ethical and honourable.

That is when you really see "love your enemies" happening. You were not told to love because your government, ideology, political system or spiritual leader told you to love. You love because you decided for yourself that it was important to love. Jesus did not compel anyone to love by saying "love your enemies." It was always our choice.

The command to love was a command to do something voluntarily. There is no compulsion to love. Jesus didn't give that command to an army of soldiers, soldiers who take orders, obey and execute them. He gave it to his brothers, sisters and mothers, his family. He gave it to his people as a father gives it to his children because he wants to teach them how to live. If we disobey, it is because we have not yet learnt how to love. Poeple are not to "love their enemies" because they're following orders. They are to love spontaneously. That love must come from the heart. That love has to be natural, and not an attempt to conform to an ideology, to doctrine or due to indoctrination. Love that is conformity to ideology, to the dictates of a government or establishment is not real love. Love because you can, not because it is something you must to do.

It is your choice and mine to love. Not loving doesn't necessarily make you less of a Christian. What does make you less of a Christian is not walking the path, not taking the journey seriously. The hope is that by walking the path and the journey, we discover and learn how to love.

We are not soldiers fighting a war. We are not agents of a political system or ideology, so there are no rules of engagement. We are individuals.

George W. Bush may well be a Christian, but that doesn't mean he represents Christianity. More importantly, he's a Head of State. He represents America. America is a political system. Christianity is not a political system, so when an individual like George W. Bush declares war, he does it in the name of America not Christianity. Besides, even the U.S. Constitution says that religious matters should not mix with the affairs of State. Whatever he does, he does it for secular purposes.

 

[Quahom1]

Is this the Bible teachings? I asked about what does Christianity says of dealing with war and conflicts?

That is exactly what the Bible teaches Christians, Dialogue.

v/r

Q

 

[Quahom1]

Christianity isn't statecraft. Christianity is about the individual. It is not about foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government. It does not concern itself with political systems, political structures, law systems, constitutions, who gets executive, legislative, judicial or military powers, war or rules of engagement.

That may be Islam's role and purpose but it isn't supposed to be important to the way of the Christian. Many Christians do that, but IMHO these Christians are misguided. It was never supposed to be our job to dabble in statecraft for religious purposes because a political system and its associated interactions is a secular entity, no matter how religious you try to make it. I don't consider statecraft a spiritual pursuit in the case of Christianity. Other religions may dabble in statecraft, but that is because it was part of the purpose of that religion.



Some people only speak of the ideology of "love your enemies" but the real "love your enemies" is the "love your enemies" that comes naturally and directly from the heart.

This is why it's so important for us to be individuals, to do things our own way and not be slaves or agents of an ideology or political system, not to conform to the ideals of an organisation, but to choose for ourselves, how to think, behave and believe, what is right to do, noble, ethical and honourable.

That is when you really see "love your enemies" happening. You were not told to love because your government, ideology, political system or spiritual leader told you to love. You love because you decided for yourself that it was important to love. Jesus did not compel anyone to love by saying "love your enemies." It was always our choice.

The command to love was a command to do something voluntarily. There is no compulsion to love. Jesus didn't give that command to an army of soldiers, soldiers who take orders, obey and execute them. He gave it to his brothers, sisters and mothers, his family. He gave it to his people as a father gives it to his children because he wants to teach them how to live. If we disobey, it is because we have not yet learnt how to love. Poeple are not to "love their enemies" because they're following orders. They are to love spontaneously. That love must come from the heart. That love has to be natural, and not an attempt to conform to an ideology, to doctrine or due to indoctrination. Love that is conformity to ideology, to the dictates of a government or establishment is not real love. Love because you can, not because it is something you must to do.

It is your choice and mine to love. Not loving doesn't necessarily make you less of a Christian. What does make you less of a Christian is not walking the path, not taking the journey seriously. The hope is that by walking the path and the journey, we discover and learn how to love.

We are not soldiers fighting a war. We are not agents of a political system or ideology, so there are no rules of engagement. We are individuals.

George W. Bush may well be a Christian, but that doesn't mean he represents Christianity. More importantly, he's a Head of State. He represents America. America is a political system. Christianity is not a political system, so when an individual like George W. Bush declares war, he does it in the name of America not Christianity. Besides, even the U.S. Constitution says that religious matters should not mix with the affairs of State. Whatever he does, he does it for secular purposes.

Nicely put.

 

[dailogue is the best]

That is exactly what the Bible teaches Christians, Dialogue.

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Q

Give me a verse from the Christian scriptures, Quahom1.

 

[Quahom1]

Give me a verse from the Christian scriptures, Quahom1.

There are many my friend. How shall I start?

Let's start with the soldier:



Matthew 8:5-13 is long, but I encourage your to take the time to read it.

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 "Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering." 7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him." 8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it." 10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour. (Matthew 8:5-13; see Luke 7:1-10)


​

We can learn at least five truths from this inspiring episode.
First, the centurion was kindhearted, for he cared for one of his servants. The centurion asking help for a servant indicates desperation as if he were a moral father, perhaps. He certainly was a caring head of household and commander. Also, the parallel passage in Luke says that some elders of the Jews encouraged Jesus to help the soldier, pleading, "This man deserves to have you do this, because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue" (Luke 7:4-5).
What is the timeless truth drawn from this first point? It is fitting for a soldier to be helpful to a nation that he enters. The (local) elders of the Jews praise this gentile who built their synagogue. It is possible to be godly and to serve in the military, wielding a sword.
Second, the centurion shows some humility. He tells the Lord that he is not worthy of Jesus coming under his roof. This wins the heart of Jesus, catching his attention. Such humility is doubly important for persons in command. Sometimes power corrupts good character, causing us to become arrogant (which is different from confidence, a virtue).
Third, the centurion understands the chain of command. If he tells a soldier to do something, then the soldier does it. In a similar, but spiritual way, if Jesus tells the disease to depart, it will obey. The centurion recognizes that Jesus has spiritual authority that transcends time and place. Jesus does not have to be on location to heal, so the centurion wisely discerns. This is truly a remarkable insight.
Fourth, it is now important to note what Jesus says and does, and what he does not say or do. He honors the centurion’s request and heals his servant. Next, he praises the centurion to high heaven for his insight, using superlative language: "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith" (verse 10), not as great as the gentile commander’s faith. What does Jesus not say or do? He does not denounce the centurion as a military servant of Rome. He never says, "Leave the army, for it is corrupt and intrinsically evil! If you don’t, I’ll never heal your servant!" As a moral example and teacher, if he wanted to point out behavior and practices that harm the people doing them, then he would have done so. But he didn’t.
Fifth and finally, we civilians must honor soldiers and other military personnel. If they need help in practical ways, then let’s pitch in and help. Let’s bring healing not only to a soldier himself or herself, but to his or her household, as well. If Jesus did this, then why should we ignore his example?

Peter and Cornelius, a centurion


Doesn’t a Roman centurion deserve divine censure on the face of it? After all, we’re reading the New Testament that teaches nothing but "peace and love," right? Note God’s assessment of the commander:

1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2 He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked. The angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God. (Acts 10:1-4)


​

big hopes for all mankind (and all men). Christian beliefs that allow for no vengeance.

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[Saltmeister]

one of the major problems is the Islamic mandate to "lie" to non-believers, in order to save the heart of the muslim. Abbass was a perfect example of that today, when he told Ms. Rice Palestinians would recognize Israel as a soveriegn nation, then told the Palestinians in Arabic, they would never recognize Israel...lied outright. How can there be a trust of any kind?

Woa....careful there. While the antics of the U.S. government isn't the official topic of this thread, it has been dragged into it.

I just thought I might say....... that the things that a government will do in the name of nationhood, to preserve that country's reputation, aren't always ethical or honourable. That is quite significant for a superpower nation like the USA. There's a lot that the Cabinet would hide from the general public.

There is such a thing as what some may call "responsible lying," that haha, we're so good, we're so powerful, that we are going to lie because we can and there is nobody to stop us. The general public doesn't need to know. We're the ones with the job. The general public is too stupid to understand.

Governments around the world do it all the time. To put it simply, everybody lies. Spouses lie. Parents lie. Children lie. Employees and employers lie. Governments lie. Religious leaders lie. We live in a world of liars.

The people we love, worship and admire are liars. Nobody is clean. Everybody is guilty. We're just too stupid to know the truth, or so the liars may think.

We can't blame religious insurgents for their activities. Their logic isn't so much different to the rest of us. Everybody lies because he/she believes that the person seeking the information doesn't need to know the truth because it's not their job to know. The information belongs to you and you alone.

 

[Quahom1]

Woa....careful there. While the antics of the U.S. government isn't the official topic of this thread, it has been dragged into it.

I just thought I might say....... that the things that a government will do in the name of nationhood, to preserve that country's reputation, aren't always ethical or honourable. That is quite significant for a superpower nation like the USA. There's a lot that the Cabinet would hide from the general public.

There is such a thing as what some may call "responsible lying," that haha, we're so good, we're so powerful, that we are going to lie because we can and there is nobody to stop us. The general public doesn't need to know. We're the ones with the job. The general public is too stupid to understand.

Governments around the world do it all the time. To put it simply, everybody lies. Spouses lie. Parents lie. Children lie. Employees and employers lie. Governments lie. Religious leaders lie. We live in a world of liars.

The people we love, worship and admire are liars. Nobody is clean. Everybody is guilty. We're just too stupid to know the truth, or so the liars may think.

We can't blame religious insurgents for their activities. Their logic isn't so much different to the rest of us. Everybody lies because he/she believes that the person seeking the information doesn't need to know the truth because it's not their job to know. The information belongs to you and you alone.

Who said ANYTHING about US government? This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night.

v/r

Q

by the bye, reading the entire thread might prove interesting to you.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Christianity isn't statecraft. Christianity is about the individual. It is not about foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government. It does not concern itself with political systems, political structures, law systems, constitutions, who gets executive, legislative, judicial or military powers, war or rules of engagement.

Nice, very nice, Saltmeister. It is nicely put as Quahom1 said. Let's take the path together as you said to dicover truth and love.

You said Christianity is about individual, and that's nice. But, let me tell you that you meant that Christianity is for moments of time, in special place. I will explain. Arent those who work in foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government individuals? Arent the poor American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan individuals? do they stop connecting with Jesus and God once they work there, following the human formulated ways of ruling and conducting, which may contradict with their Christian ethics?? "love your enemies" in one hand, and kill them severly and mercilessly on the other hand...Why Christianity hasnt showed the Christians how to deal with their state affairs, hence Christians can hold to their Christian ethics whenever wherever they are...

The hope is that by walking the path and the journey, we discover and learn how to love.

May God fill our hearts with love all the time, Saltmeister. Love is a great bless.

 

[dailogue is the best]

It's dawn paryer now. i ve to leave.

p.s: this is for a later discussion, Quahom1:"This is Islamic scripture that specifically states the muslim will LIE to the un-believer in order to protect the Muslim heart. And Dialogue can not deny that passage in the Q'uran, and neither can you. And I hope you have some vestigial knowledge of the Q'uran, before you go putting me in my place, Salt...because Dialogue has not denied one thing I've said this entire thread...so why should you?

I may have been born in the dark, but it wasn't last night."

peace

 

[Quahom1]

Nice, very nice, Saltmeister. It is nicely put as Quahom1 said. Let's take the path together as you said to dicover truth and love.

You said Christianity is about individual, and that's nice. But, let me tell you that you meant that Christianity is for moments of time, in special place. I will explain. Arent those who work in foreign policy, diplomacy, nationhood or government individuals? Arent the poor American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan individuals? do they stop connecting with Jesus and God once they work there, following the human formulated ways of ruling and conducting, which may contradict with their Christian ethics?? "love your enemies" in one hand, and kill them severly and mercilessly on the other hand...Why Christianity hasnt showed the Christians how to deal with their state affairs, hence Christians can hold to their Christian ethics whenever wherever they are...



May God fill our hearts with love all the time, Saltmeister. Love is a great bless.

No, Christianity is a faith that is 24/7, not moments in time. And it has nothing to do with politics. Unfortunately, that is something Muslims have to struggle with, since Islam and politics, and Islam and law is very much combined. Therein lies our crux of the matter (pardon the pun).

 

[Saltmeister]

Who said ANYTHING about US government?

The US government is the terrorists' number one enemy. It's implicitly involved in everything the terrorists do. It lies, gives itself a bad name, and so the terrorists use it as propaganda to recruit more people so they can get rid of this "Great Satan." In war or any ideological struggle, people will often break established moral principles and laws just to get the job done. In the meantime, they hide their crimes so that if there is anyone who would object, they don't find out. You can't really blame them for lying. Even our own religious leaders lie.

As for scripture explicitly commanding or inspiring deception, I'll leave that to you and Dialogue.

 

[Quahom1]

The US government is the terrorists' number one enemy. It's implicitly involved in everything the terrorists do. It lies, gives itself a bad name, and so the terrorists use it as propaganda to recruit more people so they can get rid of this "Great Satan." In war or any ideological struggle, people will often break established moral principles and laws just to get the job done. In the meantime, they hide their crimes so that if there is anyone who would object, they don't find out. You can't really blame them for lying. Even our own religious leaders lie.

As for scripture explicitly commanding or inspiring deception, I'll leave that to you and Dialogue.

Horse pucky. This has been going on for centuries. America is just now getting involved in it (seriously). Nothing new under the sun...just new players, and old...

 

[Dogbrain]

I know, Quahom1. And there are many Christians and Jews in this forum whom I feel their tender hearts and kind emotions.

Looks to me that all you feel is militarism and hatred.

You will either not respond or respond in a way that proves my statement true.

 

[17th Angel]

I have, every day.

I second that....

Is this the Bible teachings? I asked about what does Christianity says of dealing with war and conflicts?

Not to be apart of them. And many christians are not... Which is good.. I would rather be seen a "traitor" than go and kill others. And those motivated by love and peace also should be like this. For god's kingdom is not of this realm... So why would those of faith fight and die for a kingdom that they wish not to be part of?