What do you believe about End Times?

what do i as one of Jehovahs witnesses believe about the end times?


i believe that we have been living in the time of the end since 1914.
and that 1914 is a very significant date in bible prophecy



so i believe that we are now well along into bible prophecy, and the bible always comes true, in the past, right now, and on into the future.


and nothing or no one can stop Gods purpose for the earth from being accomplished.


and it will be very good .

With each passing year, the world is becoming more and more dangerous. ​


It is overrun with warring armies, dishonest politicians, hypocritical religious leaders, and hardened criminals. ​



The world as a whole is beyond reform. ​

The Bible reveals that the time is near when God will eliminate the wicked world during his war of Armageddon. ​

This will make way for a righteous new world.—Revelation 16:14-16 ​

.
Jehovah God selected Jesus Christ to be Ruler of His heavenly Kingdom, or government. ​


Long ago, the Bible foretold: "Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called . . . Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end." (Isaiah 9:6, 7, King James Version) ​


Regarding this government, Jesus taught his followers to pray: "Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth." (Matthew 6:10) ​


God’s Kingdom will soon remove all the governments of this world, and it itself will replace all of them. (Daniel 2:44) Then God’s Kingdom will usher in an earthly paradise. ​

:)​
 
"The world as a whole is beyond reform."

This is not Christian.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
--Jn 3:17
 
Path_of_one said:
I've read enough books claiming to know The Answers about what all the symbols in Revelations mean to last me a lifetime. I found them uninspired and uninspiring, mostly with the effect of creating fear and escapism among their readership, neither of which is taught by Christ....
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...I agree. I also think it is helpful to study the OT books in light of the way Jewish scholars study them, given their heritage/origin. Further, I think the NT can be approached similarly. The question of what authentic early Christianity consisted of is a tough one, but I think important for these sorts of issues. Alternatively, one could forego that question and seek to be led by the Spirit directly.
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Hear, hear.
Path_of_one said:
What is alarming to me is the large (and growing) population of Christians that seem to do neither, and rely on religious leaders to spoon-feed the meaning of text without any context or individual effort at all. I don't think that was ever the intent of early Christianity.
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I think of it as a phase and predict that there will be an equal and opposite reaction from those same people and their kids over the next twenty years. The churches you're thinking of which feed on fanaticism are part of the self discovery process for some people. They also tend to have a high turnover rate, although it may be hard to spot just by visiting. Overall it can be part of an awakening both in politics and in culture.
 
sonoman said:
"The world as a whole is beyond reform."

This is not Christian.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."
--Jn 3:17
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yes that is correct indeed

God did sent his son into the world ,and he is the way to salvation .

God does not want any to be destroyed , but he wants all to come to repentence


Jehovah God had a special reason for sending Jesus into this impoverished world of mankind.


Divine love was the motivation for this, for Jesus himself said: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him."—John 3:16, 17.



It was on a mission of salvation that Jehovah lovingly sent his only-begotten Son.


God did not send his Son here in order to judge the world.

If God’s Son had been sent on such a judicial mission, the outlook for all mankind would have been hopeless.

The sentence of adverse judgment that would have been pronounced by Jesus Christ upon the human family would have been condemnation to death. (Romans 5:12)

Thus, by this unique expression of divine love, God counterbalanced the death sentence that sheer justice would have required.​
 
path of one said:
I think the value of symbolism is its capacity to meet each person where they are at- that is, the variety of what symbols could mean allows such text to speak to each reader, inspired by the Spirit, in a direct and personal manner. The text becomes a "thin place" at which we meet God. The application comes not from other people telling us what something means and how we should believe, but rather through our own wrestling with the text, with our supplication to God for guidance by the Spirit, and our humility in admitting our struggles to ourself and to God. My experience is that in so doing, God reveals what we (individually) need to know from the text in order to grow closer to Him and to work in the world as the Body of Christ. It doesn't much matter if another person is given a different answer. If each were authentically focused on growing in Christ, I have faith that it would all work in accord with God's will, and there is no need for one single answer/meaning to every passage.
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I agree that we can glean from scripture that personal message from God that we can apply to our lives. The word of God is a mirror into one's soul. We can learn much that is applkcable to us in Revelation, particularly in the letters to the churches.

However, I fail to see how I can personally spiritualize every aspect of that book. Most of what I read from chapter 6 on is like a drama being played out, relating to a literal judgement of God upon the earth. Now I won't try and interpret what the beasts, scorpions, dragons, and other obscurities mean, but the descriptions of judgements make no sense unless it is in a politico-historic context. Either the events already happened, or they are going to happen. Nor can I see it as some mythological expression, for that makes a mockery out of these judgements if they weren't meant to come to pass. It would rather be like God saying, "Hey people, wanna watch a great movie? It's fictional, but it has a great moral to it. So be nice!"

Besides, if we are to believe in the imminent return of Jesus Christ, we have to ask ourselves in just what manner He plans on doing so. In the gospel of Mark, during the inquisition of Jesus by the high priest, we have Jesus saying in response to the question of his Messiahship, "I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." Now we have to believe that when Jesus returns that He will mean business, in light of this verse and other passages that He says about the Son of Man coming in His Glory (see Matthew 25). He came meekly the first time. I don't think He will be that meek the second time.

So right near the end of the events of these judgment we find in Revelation, we have a figure who is returning in all the Glory of God:

"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." - Revelation 19:11-16

Now if this isn't Jesus, then who is it? And if it is Jesus, then it doesn't look like He is coming back as a meek lamb, does it?

Talk about a political statement of CHANGE. I'd say Jesus is going to make some changes alright, with or without the consent of Congress.

You may ask, where's the grace in all this? Well, God has been gracious for two thousand years, but people are too hardheaded to heed the message (I'm not just talking about a need for salvation through Christ, but a change in one's heart to love God and love thy neighbor, which is sorely lacking in many parts of the world, including and maybe especially here in the U.S). The world is far from ready to be fit for the kingdom of heaven. Something drastic is desparately needed.

I don't want to seem like a doomsdayer. I'm not going to play the hypocrite because there is enough in my own life that still need changing. But I leave the judgment up to God. Revelation only serves as a warning of things to come. The kingdom of heaven is not going to come with just some retooling, it has to come with a radical change if we are ever to see peace. I'm just saying.
 
Dondi, this, of course, gets back into that whole issue of is everything in the Bible intended to be read as literal material fact? We know that that also is a problematic position to take. It seems so many cultures had their version of apocalyptic end-times, though for some, like the Maya, it would be merely the end of a cycle and the start of another, which I guess you could say is also true re Revelation. When the world seems to be going to hell in a handbasket, even us non-literalists get a tad nervous about the possibility of "end-times" for most life on earth. But if we put ourselves there it will be exactly that-we put ourselves there, not some external judgment in my opinion. Have to agree, though, with both "New Agers" and traditional religionists who, each in their own way, point out that 1 key aspect of avoiding such a bleak outcome is to deeply engage in spirituality which actually transforms human behavior. earl

For those who want a quick overview of the plethora of interpretations of that book, here's a decent one:
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book-of_Revelation
 
Dondi, I will toss a possible symbolic interpretation at you that shows a possible symbolic interpretation of chapter 6 that does not require viewing it as describing political events. It is not authoritative and I haven't spent any time working it out, so there are definitely errors. You can see where I'm going with it, though.
Rev 6:12-13 said:
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale; the sky vanished like a scroll that is rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the generals and the rich and the strong, and every one, slave and free, hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand before it?"
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Using some typical symbolic meanings:
  • sixth seal = sixth day of creation = a work fated from the church's creation having allusions to the 6th day in Genesis wherein certain animals and humans are created. Rather than about a certain century, year, or day it could mean where we are in spiritual time -- where in a spiritual process.
  • great earthquake = destruction or confusion in the religious realms
  • sun black as sackcloth = Christ hidden from the world
  • moon full of blood = war against the saints
  • stars falling to earth = saints overcome, killed, oppressed as in Daniel
  • fig tree loses its leaves = Israel shamed
  • kings of the earth and the great men = religious authorities
Notice that in the seventh seal there are seven angels with seven trumpets, reminiscent of the 50th year, a jubilee of jubilees -- similar to the way that Genesis describes creation twice. Instead of a place in time you could think of events in Revelation as representing of all of time -- the focus of all of time. The seven lamp-stands, the seven stars, the seven thunders are all related and probably simultaneous. For example: there is no one particular time in which saints suffered, but they have always suffered throughout history.
 
earl said:
Dondi, this, of course, gets back into that whole issue of is everything in the Bible intended to be read as literal material fact?
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I suppose for the answer to that question, one would probably have to find themselves in the shoes of a 2nd century member in good standing of one of the Asia churches for whom the book was written. Did they believe it to be literal?
 
I know we are in the End Times. The End Times of spiritual authority of every organized Abrahamic religion has already happened for me. I can now only read the Old Testament and Judaism as unconscious pack-horse for the delivery of Jesus and His spiritual information which does not derive from the righteousness of Abraham as it did for Moses and Muhammad.

I can, heck any intelligent person can easily see that many who call themselves "Christian" and followers of Jesus, are in spirit still within the Old Testament idea of God as Avenger for all who suffer for goodness sake. They don't want Revelation tossed out as spiritual schizophrenia because in Revelation they get their Jesus as Avenger of God to punish the unbelievers, thus ignoring Jesus' teachings about forgiveness of sins which can only mean forgiveness of sins-not delayed revenge as is seen in Revelation. Revelation is not a Christian document in my opinion but a document to be studied for prophetic clues nonetheless because God has embedded prophesy within Scriptures, even when the authors themselves likely had no idea they were doing this service for future generations.
 
sonoman said:
I know we are in the End Times. The End Times of spiritual authority of every organized Abrahamic religion has already happened for me. I can now only read the Old Testament and Judaism as unconscious pack-horse for the delivery of Jesus and His spiritual information which does not derive from the righteousness of Abraham as it did for Moses and Muhammad.

I can, heck any intelligent person can easily see that many who call themselves "Christian" and followers of Jesus, are in spirit still within the Old Testament idea of God as Avenger for all who suffer for goodness sake. They don't want Revelation tossed out as spiritual schizophrenia because in Revelation they get their Jesus as Avenger of God to punish the unbelievers, thus ignoring Jesus' teachings about forgiveness of sins which can only mean forgiveness of sins-not delayed revenge as is seen in Revelation. Revelation is not a Christian document in my opinion but a document to be studied for prophetic clues nonetheless because God has embedded prophesy within Scriptures, even when the authors themselves likely had no idea they were doing this service for future generations.
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What is your idea of Divine Justice?
 
sonoman said:
I know we are in the End Times. The End Times of spiritual authority of every organized Abrahamic religion has already happened for me. I can now only read the Old Testament and Judaism as unconscious pack-horse for the delivery of Jesus and His spiritual information which does not derive from the righteousness of Abraham as it did for Moses and Muhammad.

I can, heck any intelligent person can easily see that many who call themselves "Christian" and followers of Jesus, are in spirit still within the Old Testament idea of God as Avenger for all who suffer for goodness sake. They don't want Revelation tossed out as spiritual schizophrenia because in Revelation they get their Jesus as Avenger of God to punish the unbelievers, thus ignoring Jesus' teachings about forgiveness of sins which can only mean forgiveness of sins-not delayed revenge as is seen in Revelation. Revelation is not a Christian document in my opinion but a document to be studied for prophetic clues nonetheless because God has embedded prophesy within Scriptures, even when the authors themselves likely had no idea they were doing this service for future generations.
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Sonoman, I'm interested in how you picture the "end times-" what exactly is it in your view? Earl
 
Dream said:
Dondi, I will toss a possible symbolic interpretation at you that shows a possible symbolic interpretation of chapter 6 that does not require viewing it as describing political events. It is not authoritative and I haven't spent any time working it out, so there are definitely errors. You can see where I'm going with it, though.
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In re: REV 6:12-13

Looks to me that you can interpret this passage as some kind of nuclear exchange. We see a similar description in Ezekiel 38-39.
 
earl said:
Dondi, my view is God seeks reconciliation as opposed to "justice." earl
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So how is He going to reconcile murderers, child rapists, and Nazi war criminals with their victims if they never had a chance to "reconcile" in this life. Wouldn't that involve a long process of healing and forgiveness on the part of both parties? What is one is not willing to repent?
 
Dondi said:
So how is He going to reconcile murderers, child rapists, and Nazi war criminals with their victims if they never had a chance to "reconcile" in this life. Wouldn't that involve a long process of healing and forgiveness on the part of both parties? What is one is not willing to repent?
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Well, my view is rather non-traditional. But, in general, repentance (in its various forms), is I'd say part of reconciliation. earl
 
Dondi said:
What is your idea of Divine Justice?
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I asked Father about sinners and Hell and was told not to ask. It's in God's hands and we're not to know so that our forgiveness of sin is pure.
 
earl said:
Sonoman, I'm interested in how you picture the "end times-" what exactly is it in your view? Earl
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The meaning of the "End Times" for me:

The "End Times" do not refer to a literal end of the world scenario but to the ending of the astrological Age of Pisces and the ending of 4th World in Native American prophesy. Many religious beliefs will fall victim to the New Millennium knowledge gained from modern research. Old foundational stories of legendary religious leaders and miraculous events will be exposed by historical research as tribal myths borrowed from still older mythical lore. Modern science techniques used in historical research of ancient religions as well as psychological research of the religious impulse, will expose the way human errors and political agendas intervene in traditional religious doctrines that will deal final death blows to religious authority resting in Holy Book scriptures as inerrant truth. Only two religious concept will remain unscathed: 1) That God is Good, the Source of Goodness, and that we are all the Children of God.

No moral compass

These are the End Times of all religions that lack recognition of the Spirit of Christ. These are the End Times of all patriarchal religions that lack recognition of the Feminine aspect of the Holy One. Traditional Pauline Christianity faces its End Times as Pauline doctrine is exposed as Paul's revision of Jesus' teachings and meaning of his life and death. I believe Father is sick of all the unnecessary violence seen throughout the history of patriarchal religions which shows no sign of diminishing in modern times. I believe the Holy One is taking spiritual action to end it as we step ahead into the New Millennium.

Each of the traditional Abrahamic doctrines contain their various Achilles Heels and are doomed unless they go through a radical revision that removes the "Satanic Verses" from their holy books such as Deuteronomy 13:6-10, for Judaism, calling for the stoning of the wayward son, such as Revelation telling Christians God destroys the world, such as the Quran telling Muslims to behead infidels. In other words, Scriptures found in the so-called holy books of Judaism, Pauline Christianity and Islam that historically have led believers to bring harm or death to their neighbors must be composted to allow traditional religionists to fit in with New Millennium standards of decency and civilized life. This means traditional doctrines must change or face extinction like all the ancient pagan religions have suffered not being able to provide moral compass in a changing social world.
 
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