The myth of free will
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seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Here's one:
Genesis 4:6-7
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? 7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? 7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
All you proved was and is that we make our own choices we choose good or evil right or left good or bad. UNCAUSED will or UN caused choice. I f you or anyone of us in this word makes a choice it is caused by something or someone seen or unseen but something causes you to choose the way you do. If you don't do right,YOU WON'T BE ACCEPTED There's the cause of doing right not being accepted. Get it??
I will give one example of not have free will.
The night of Jesus arrest what happen?
One moment they were all in the upper room feeling safe and happy without fear. They were with their Lord and Saviour whom they loved with all their heart and soul. Then the next they were surrounded by Roman Soldiers and their Lord was being arrested. What happen next? Just as Jesus predicted. The disciples were running and hiding in fear for their lives and saying that they did not know Jesus. Denying they knew Him.
Lets take a closer look at their wills. First their wills were to say they would never deny Jesus their circcumstances were great at that time in the upper room.
Then their circumstances changed. It changed to fear, fear for their lives. These are Jesus's own disciples they would never deny knowing Jesus. Ko you think for one minute that they wanted to deny Jesus? NO. They didn't want to be known as cowards and fools or liars, no but that excalty what happen. If they had a free will why would they not use thier free will to choose to NOT deny Jesus. Why not choose to acknowlage they were the disciples of Jesus Why because God changed their circumstances. One from them feeling safe to feeling fear. It Changed their whole outlook. Free will to have will that is not caused by anything internal or external things that are seen and things that are not seen. UNCAUSED WILL, UNCAUSED CHOICE. Can anyone see this? Something or someone always causes one to cake the choices they make. This is just one example. There are many more in Scripture which is the Word of God.
The night of Jesus arrest what happen?
One moment they were all in the upper room feeling safe and happy without fear. They were with their Lord and Saviour whom they loved with all their heart and soul. Then the next they were surrounded by Roman Soldiers and their Lord was being arrested. What happen next? Just as Jesus predicted. The disciples were running and hiding in fear for their lives and saying that they did not know Jesus. Denying they knew Him.
Lets take a closer look at their wills. First their wills were to say they would never deny Jesus their circcumstances were great at that time in the upper room.
Then their circumstances changed. It changed to fear, fear for their lives. These are Jesus's own disciples they would never deny knowing Jesus. Ko you think for one minute that they wanted to deny Jesus? NO. They didn't want to be known as cowards and fools or liars, no but that excalty what happen. If they had a free will why would they not use thier free will to choose to NOT deny Jesus. Why not choose to acknowlage they were the disciples of Jesus Why because God changed their circumstances. One from them feeling safe to feeling fear. It Changed their whole outlook. Free will to have will that is not caused by anything internal or external things that are seen and things that are not seen. UNCAUSED WILL, UNCAUSED CHOICE. Can anyone see this? Something or someone always causes one to cake the choices they make. This is just one example. There are many more in Scripture which is the Word of God.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
And in this way you are sending out 'potential causal trigger points' ACCORDING TO THE CHOICES YOU MAKE. Get it yet? Will you own them, or not? They are of your making. You steered them, and sent them out ACCORDING TO YOUR CHOICE. That is free will: the ability to control yourself. Get it? Let me cite that scripture once again:
Genesis 4:6-7
6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? 7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Will Cain own his own free will, or not? Will he master himself, or not? Obviously, he did not, and look where it got him. He was a slave to sin. He did not own (choose) his own free-will to master himself.6 Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast? 7 If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it."
Read my example of free will again. I not trying to change your beliefs. If you want to believe in free will, OK. I am just trying to show you how free will is a myth. Look at the story of the last supper and the arrest of Christ in the garden. Jesus told them that they would denied Him before the night was over. They did. Do you really think for one min. that they wanted to deny being a follower of Christ The Son of God Their Lord and Saviour. NO WAY. Can you imagenhow happy they were to be a disciples of The Son of God. For three yrs. They studied,ate,sleep,cried and laugh with Him. There's no way that they wanted to deny Jesus. They did. Why circumstances changed. Remember I NEVER said we didn't have choices we make. I said all of our choices our wills or govern by a CAUSE something or someone seen or unseen visible or invisible causes us to choose the way we choose. having free willa will that is totally free from causes, We still make the choice we are responsible for our choices. God gave us a brain to process information and make a choice We have that ability we use it all the time. But there is always something or someone that causes us to make the choices that we make . As far has Cain goes, He chose to not own up as you say What CAUSED him not to own up as you say. Cain, Adam and Eve,Noah and Abraham do you think fir one sec. they could have choes another way. Doesn/t make more since that God was in control at all times. God make man weak,(spiritually) look how many time you made the wrong choices how many time man makes the wrong choices. If man was able had free will would not he make all good and right disisions? Why make a bad disision and suffer the ramifacations? I know I would chose right everytime if I could but I am not in control of my circumstances.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Your declaring free will to be a myth is accomplished by your changing the generally understood meaning of free-will. Since you can't even agree with the dictionary, you probably won't get anyone to agree with you.
I always said we make our own choices. I always said that having free will FREE to choose without anything CAUSING us do will own our own.. I never said we couldn't make choices. American Heritage College- to select from a number of possible alternatives. Yea I get it. my whole argument is that we can not make a choice or will anything without someone or something CAUSING us to make the choices we make. Your the on dancing around my statement. UNCAUSED WILL, UNCAUSE CHOICE. tell me one time you made a choice when nothing (Caused) the way you chose.
obviously each situation in which you can make a choice is brought about by a unknown number of causes
this has nothing to do with free will, if you are able and willing to use your will, and consider yourself a free human, then you can use your free will
its ok if you cannot, most people have problems with this
but you say basically none of us is free since god is there who sets things up all the time, and we all make preprogramed choices like automata, then by some system of statistical probability this goes according to gods great plan
yes, if you deconstruct each action into the most undividable elements, right down to the interaction of electrons in the brain, obviously each action or choice has innumerable causes, beyond our control
but it is idiotic to think this cancels out your freedom
this is part of the complex system that is you and by which you have the potential to be free in the first place
earlier the etimology of the word freedom was layed out, suggesting it means love or friendship, prijateljstvo
in other languages freedom has a different etimology
in my language freedom means to be of one self, to belong to one self, to be indipendent, biti slobodan, biti svoj
if one believes he is not of himself, that he is not indipendant and is under a set of rules and influences external to him, and then acepts this, that is ones own problem, and ones own choice
we might now argue on how no one is truly free, how no one is truly indipendent, how all things are dependent of each other and there is no absolute freedom
obviously nothing in existance is absolute, so this would be a pointless argument
yes you are limited and dependent on many things
yes choices are limited, in any given situation
but this is not important, as your free will does not concern that wich is beyond you, it concern that which is within your limits
by free will you can in fact expand your limits
or contract them, if you so will
free will IS a possible choice, one that is alvais free, no matter how limited the possibilities
the question is often if a being is personally capable of making that choice, which is often extremely difficult, especially since people are not used to using it, and in fact do function like automata for much of their life
still they have the possibility of using free will, no matter what the situation
choices depend on external factors, free will does not, it is an internal moment, it gives one the ability to make choices, the number of which is limited not by the given situation but only by the potential of action in reality
which is wast
you give examples where individuals make choices limited by a set of perceived rules and norms, so as to attain a certain goal, Jesus chooses to get tortured and killed, a person going shopping chooses to take right and left turns
but obeying the rules and norms often does require free will
lots of it sometimes
so does breaking the rules
the person driving the car might of chosen to drive across a green surface or go trough a red light, all these are possibilities, outside the norms or rules in traffic
this would of been dangerous maybe, and could have legal consequences, of which the person is probably aware, but the possibility exists that the person makes a conscious decision and chose to go trough a red light
obviously if a person believes he or she must obey a set of rules and norms, he or she might not use free will to break them, but to go along with them, or he or she might not use free will at all, simply functioning mechanically
still in each situation it is possible to use free will, this is an internal thing, contained within the individual person and his hers internal potential, it does not depend on any external factors, it in fact can influence external factors, again with limits, but these limitations are relative, and so not crucial to the argument
in any situation no matter the limitations there is the possibility of using free will
weather a person is aware of this or capable of this is a personal thing
great, now i am repeating myself
1. I never said we were preprogrammed. God is responsible for our circumstances and we make the choices. The (cause) is whatever our circumstances are at that time.
OK I was reading your reply, but when you said it was idiotic that's when I draw the line. I know you didn't come out and say I;m an idiot but you insenuated. You either don't believe that God is forknowing, that He knows the END from the Beginning. That He IS SOVERIGEN, because if you did you would see that the two can not work together. We have over SIX BILLION humans on earth making billions of choices a min. Changing their minds every min of everyday. I will say it again, we make our choices were not robots or puppets. God gave us a mind so that we may use it. all I said is our choices are CAUSED by something or someone. That's it call it want you want, That's it. Every choice we make are CAUSED by something or someone. Now I am repeating myself.
Thanks,
Darren
lunamoth
Episcopalian
What percent of our choices does God constrain?
What percent of our circumstances does God dictate?
What percent of our circumstances does God dictate?
Dream
Well-Known Member
Free will vs. predestination really is a toughy. Although my mind is now made up about it I have been known to be wrong before. I once got an opinion about God and time from a rabbi, who told me that God is independent of time seeing all of it at once. He thought times when God is angry or seems to react to events are anthropomorphisms but not actually events that changed God. They were also not merely foreknown but eternal actions, but it is impossible to 'tell' other people about revealed mysteries. It is unprofitable, infertile, and unnecessary to make sure everyone understands predestination and freewill. Who can teach it?
Dream are you saying God changes? You said but not actuall events change God. CHANGE , No. I sorry I do have to disagree with you. It is profitable and necessary in order to understand that God is ALL SOVERGEN. Once you understand this your whole belif system must change. Your admiting that God is in control of all things and is the real authority over us, and man does not like to not have control. We hold on th control with all our might. Just look at the flack I got over this thread. Humans hate to even think they are not in control over their own destiny. Over their own wills They hate it. It was very difficult for me to grasp. But now that I have it is great. I totaly believe God is All Sovergen. In controll over ever espect of my life. Who can teach it? Not me I did a terrible job on this subject. I wasn't trying to teach or preach. I was just trying to explain what I believe is one of the biggest myth of christandom by way of man made doctrine.
Darren
God is 100% responsible in creating our circumstances,
WE are 100% responsible for the choices we make.
God dosen't make us do anything, He creats the circumstance we find ourselves in, and we make the choice, be right or wrong, good or evil. It is our choice to make.
This is way it is hard for us to understand the difference between NOT having free will and Having free choice. Anyway this is ONLY my belief. I was just expressing like everyone else does here.
Darren
Dream
Well-Known Member
No sir, I'm not saying that. Just that its impossible for you to make other people see things that were revealed to you as an individual. We are not capable of doing that, and to think that we were would be more offensive to God than having the facts wrong. What if I were to say to you "Let me illumate the truth for your eyes!" Do you see the error in my statement? I am not the light, although I am called to walk in the light. (I John 1) The light may shine through me, but I am not it. Teaching is not for just anyone to do, because really no one can do it. The world is afraid that truth will be lost, but the children of God know it comes from heaven and not from earth. The world will tell you that the gospel was lost or that this group or that group preserves it. That is never true, but God's word is like manna, so we gather it every day as we have need. Whatever extra we try to save up is eaten by worms! As we walked through the wilderness, neither our clothes nor our shoes wore out to teach us that providence comes from God alone. (Deut 8:3-4)Winner08 said:
well all things in existence are caused and cause
to say this does not really mean much
choice could not exist if there were no situations in existence that demanded or allowed a choice
you say humans have choice and humans have will
possibility of choice means self determination, conscious or unconscious, willing or unwilling, even if limited
self determination and willpower make for potential freedom
then free beings with will have the potential of having and using free will
this means free will, no matter how relative or scarce, is an innate possibility
it can and does exist
also there is a serious paradox in your reasoning, that involving the relation between the changable and unchangable
if you believe in a sovereing god then how can humans changing minds affect him, or his plan?
this would suggest that a gods sovereinty is dependant on the minds of humans and how often they change
meaning this is in fact not a sowereing god
if it is a sowereing god, then humans changing minds has no influence on it
if a thing or entity is said to be unchangable then, by both definition and common sence, it cannot be changed by things that are changable, and so its state is not dependant
N
Nick_A
Guest
Hi Darren
Suppose the result is unimportant. Suppose that the only important thing is the process of the continual interaction of universal laws. Results are important for us and our way of thinking. I am suggesting that objectively, all that is important is the process.
What is the difference between reacting from desire and acting from will? IMO we don't know since we are creatures of reaction so for us will is really reacting to differing desires just as it is with any other animal. Why does the cat strike at a particular moment? It is a reaction determined by the moment.
Christianity suggests that man is capable of more than animal reaction and that we are capable of consciousness and will. Only through consciousness and will could man become able to serve his greater purpose than his normal reactive animal life and connect heaven and earth both within himself and in the external world: "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." This is a quality of action we are incapable of since it requires consciousness and will that exists for us as our potential to perform an action rather then just the normal creature of reaction that the majority of humanity has become accustomed to being.
Excactly Nick you said a mouth full. Reacting from desire. (desire) is something that would CAUSE us to make a choice a certain way is it not so? therefore that choice is caused by the desire. (I Just said it backwards). It is a action CAUSED by a reaction. That is what i have been trying to say. I probable didn't explaine it the best way.
Darren
N
Nick_A
Guest
Simone Weil may very well have been one of the most extraordinary women of the twentieth century. She describes man as a creature of reaction and his potential for something greater in the most profound manner I've ever read. I think you may appreciate it: