seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Yeah, and there are those who would wish that all of those quantum elements in the universe would just go away, too.
The myth of free will
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juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
Is it really necessary to pull the "blasphemer!" and "heresiarch!" cards so early in the game? What happened to "judge not, that ye be not judged?"
Otherwise, let's just throw a big ol' bonfire and play tug of war on either side. I'll anchor my side.
Otherwise, let's just throw a big ol' bonfire and play tug of war on either side. I'll anchor my side.
Yes, Alex I know the Lord in not evil. the Lord can not even look upon evil. but I must once again prove to you through scripture (God's word) that God did infact creat evil. Yes I will show you proof.
Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness (darkness), I make peace and created evil. I the Lord do all these things. It's very simple if God created all thing then He created GOOD and EVIL.
Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which The Lord had Made.God made the serpent (devil who is evil). God created evil.
John 8:44 You are of your father the devil and the desires of your father you want do do, he was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth.
(God created the devil who was a murderer from the beginning) God created the devil/Satan who is evil. God created a tree of Good and EVIL and also created the apple which Eve bit into and the serpent that perswayed Eve to bit the apple. She then found out what evil was. How in the world can you say God did not create evil Here are scriptures proving God created Evil. God also uses evil for His purposes. Just read the old testament. God is always punishing Isreal one way or the other. everytime the Isrealites would conqured land God would instructed them to kill everything. Men, women, children and live stock. So God uses evil to serve His purpose it is all through the Bible.
Just look at the 10 plauges that God put on Egypt. I wonder how many died through that? (evil)
One more thought If God did't create Evil, then where did evil come from. Don't say humans, that dosen't hold water. Humans didn't create anything that God hasn't allowed them to do.So if you say humans created evil then God created man which inturn created evil. But at last man did not creat evil, God did.
Let me just say loud and plainly God is not evil God created evil. God created good and evil. God created the garden and created all things in the garden which includes the tree of good and evil, hence God created evil. God created the devil(satan) He is evil, therefore God created evil. God also created the serpent that is the devil satan (evil)
Now I showed you scripture that God created Evil Isa 45:7, Gen 3:1, John 8:44 I am sure there are more, If you want I will find them also.
Just because God is pure love, love as you said and I agree God is pure love and I agree in the way you discribe what love is.But what does God being love have to do with God creating evil and usesing evil to His purpose. The whole Bible mostly in the Old Testament where God uses evil for His purpose.
Now you Prove to me in scripture where God did not created Evil Or just show me scripture where evil came from I think you said man? Scripture is truth it is the inspired word of God it can not be broken It is pure truth.
Darren
juantoo3
....whys guy.... ʎʇıɹoɥʇnɐ uoıʇsǝnb
I see I beat you to the punch on the other two verses, and already explained them, I knew where you were going from the start.
You're just a tad off the mark here in John though, no surprize, it is commonly misunderstood. He is speaking of the race of men decended from Cain, whose father was the serpent in Eden. Ever notice Cain is not included in Adam's geneology? Ever wonder why not? Because Adam is not Cain's father...
Careful...thin ice. Are you guilty of your son's crimes? Cain was the first Biblically recorded murderer, not the serpent. The serpent was a LIAR from the beginning, big difference between a liar and a murderer.
More misinformation, easily and clearly corrected with a Strong's Concordance. Even the KJV has it written the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil. No apples were harmed in that little production, the whole poetic passion play was about the seduction of Eve, literally, by the serpent, who sired a son we know as Cain. Eve then seduced ha-Adam, and carried his son Abel together with Cain, and she continued in labor and gave birth to twins by different fathers. BTW, quite clinically, medically and scientifically possible.
I am thinking some of our Jewish friends could answer this more thoroughly. There is a whole lot of differing teachings surrounding the question of why bad things happen to good people, and why good things happen to bad people. For all of the pointing at OT material, I don't see any pointing to Proverbs or Ecclesiastes. Might be worthwhile to take a look.
Ah, but there is a simple confusion implied in your post, one I've seen you employ earlier, an oversimplification. G-d created *some* evil, G-d is not the source of *all* evil, that is where a lot of the confusion lies in your posts. Free-will, or whatever you wish to call it in order to float your boat, also means that people can choose to create evil or behave in an evil manner, quite independently of G-d...which is the whole purpose of religious moral/ethical teachings including heaven-hell. If God were the source of *all* evil, then He would correctly be called evil. So He must not be the source of all evil, therefore some evil must come from somewhere else. Most of it I believe comes from other humans.
Might want to reread that, it is the tree of KNOWLEDGE.
OK, prove that G-d is omniscient, that He knows everything always, from the Bible. Prove that G-d influences every choice we make, from the Bible. Prove G-d is the source of *all* evil, from the Bible. Are the fathers guilty of their sons' crimes?
Two obstinate people meet. Who are they? you and I, Darren . haha
If it is a matter of scriptures, Darren, then I m going to clarify it below.
I believe we are in this world to be tested : doing good or bad, following God or not. I m not against your saying of the existence of causes as motivators. I m against your saying that those causes determine my action. In the example of taking bribe, two employees may take two opposite reactions: one take the money, the other one doesnt. Is it the cause which determine their actions or their principles and ethics?? we cant be tested without test, and the causes you talk about are the tests sometimes.
Yes we are being tested. However the test itself are not the causes of our choices. The theory that you discribe. The two men makeing two different choices. Something Had to cause these men to make the choices that they made. Is this not correct? How is it even plssible to make a choice without something causing the choice?
Speaking about ethics and principles, these are not causes these comes from one's character. The man who chose to not take the money he has good character which starts with a good heart which God has given him. So maby the cause for this man to choose not to take the money Was the heart. Or maby it the cause was fear, fear of going to prison. and the opposite for the other guy.
very nice, Darren. May God deepen your faith more and
let me explain to you what may be meant by the verses in the Scriptures.
1. Jesus said that he can do nothing of himself when he refered to his miracles so that people undesrtood the powers werent his own, but of God.
2. There is nothing that stands in God's will. THAT'S TRUE. When we pray to God, we are truly sure He can stand in anyone's way, and let His will done.
3. Simply because he is God's prophet. So, Jesus was transmitting God's message to his people. the BIble is God' words. Isnt it?
I AGREE, Darren. That cause may be our principles and ethics, or it may be soul's whims and desires. WE CHOOSE.
Me, too, Darren. May God bless you.
Again, I AGREE, Darren. IF we choose the right path, then we should thank God because it Him who showed us the wrong from the right, and it is He who sent us Scriptures and Prophets. But if we choose the wrong, we should blame no one but ourselves because we choose to ignore God's teachings, and submit to our desires and whims.
Ok here are a few scriptures on free will.
Phil. 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Eph1:11 In Him we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purplse of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own Will.
Eph2:8 Through grace you have been saved. through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God lest anyone should boast.
I am the vine you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him bears much fruit for without ME you can do Nothing.
Ok Now I just showed you God's own words. (scriptures).Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any causes. The cause of most of our choices is our mind and heart that God has given us. Of the abundance of our heart our mind thinks, our tonguespeaks, and in our dody we take physical action only God can give a New and pure heart.
This is just my opinion.
Ok I gave you everything in scripture to prove that man has no free will, that we do make our own choices but that they are caused by something or someone. Now that I have given you scripture try reading them with an open mind and not put your own human twist on them. See what happens. You can't loose anything. All I am saying is that when I first heard these truths I did not believe them. My ego wouldn;t let me. That would have meant that the things I was so sure of was wrong and like I said I had a hard time letting go. But man once God opens your eyes to His truth WOW It really is Good News.
All of our lives we;ve been taught the same things that our parents were taught. Before that it was our parents parents who taught them and they were brought up in their system it is tradition passed down from one generation to the next,to the next and so on and so on. No one stops and questions, Just like christmass and easter as children we just took it on faith that there was a santa and easter bunny but when we got older we question these thing and the truth set us free. the same with Man made doctrines nobody stops to questions it.Man the real truth is so much better. The real truth is God is not going to send anyone to hell because there is no hell where people burn and are torture forever and ever. our parents who died who wasn't born again are not frying. Our grandparents are not frying they are asleep in there graves and will be resurrected at the end time . Well that another story. Man made this up so they could keep control over the people and their money. Fear is a strong motivator. Everyone will be saved at the end of the age.
1. God's will will be done no matter what. No free will
2. All will be saved
3 there is no location for hell it is the biggest christian hoax.
These are scriptually true but mainstream christianity will not belierve why because they will loose their control over others who are not christians in their eyes. it is about ego I'm better because I am a christian and your not,. (wrong).
I did my part in planting the seed of the Lord now it is up to
God to either open your eyes or not. you have no say so you don;t choose God God chooses you.
Thanks everybody for your time,
Thanks, darren
dailogue is the best
New member
I want you to answer this questions, Darren, please: Arent we responsible of our actions? and Why did God create us?
dailogue is the best
New member
Darren
I 've noticed that you have moved from talking about someone (person) or something (object) as the cause of our actions to talking about mind and heart as cause of our actions. For me, this is a very important change in your opinion which indicate that you now come with the conclusion that one can get himself/ herself free from the effects of any external cause. Now, you begin able to see that it depends on the internal causes, not external ones.
Now, the question is: arent we free in choosing the wrong from the right, depending on our hearts and minds?
Concerning the Scriptures, Darren, I have no objection about them. How? Everything we do is allowed by God to be done. He gives us the right to choose. We choose because He wants us to choose. We choose because it is His will for us to choose. In other words, my free will goes together with my God's will.
If I choose the right path and choice, I should thank God because I choose to listen and hence He help me. As you said: choose God, He chooses you.
But if I choose the wrong path, it means that I submitt to my ego, and leave behind God's words. I am the sinner, then.
Though, I always believe that the Merciful God interfers to make us return to His path, and be with Him in all our choices. The torture we get as a result of our bad choices is a mercy coming from God to get you back to his path. If you dont suffer as a result of your bad choice, you will keep doing the same choice. Eventhough, some egostic people insist in doing the wrong despite all the warnings and the sufferings.
I 've noticed that you have moved from talking about someone (person) or something (object) as the cause of our actions to talking about mind and heart as cause of our actions. For me, this is a very important change in your opinion which indicate that you now come with the conclusion that one can get himself/ herself free from the effects of any external cause. Now, you begin able to see that it depends on the internal causes, not external ones.
Now, the question is: arent we free in choosing the wrong from the right, depending on our hearts and minds?
Concerning the Scriptures, Darren, I have no objection about them. How? Everything we do is allowed by God to be done. He gives us the right to choose. We choose because He wants us to choose. We choose because it is His will for us to choose. In other words, my free will goes together with my God's will.
If I choose the right path and choice, I should thank God because I choose to listen and hence He help me. As you said: choose God, He chooses you.
But if I choose the wrong path, it means that I submitt to my ego, and leave behind God's words. I am the sinner, then.
Though, I always believe that the Merciful God interfers to make us return to His path, and be with Him in all our choices. The torture we get as a result of our bad choices is a mercy coming from God to get you back to his path. If you dont suffer as a result of your bad choice, you will keep doing the same choice. Eventhough, some egostic people insist in doing the wrong despite all the warnings and the sufferings.
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Darren, how do you explain "sinning against the Holy Spirit?" (Mark 3:29; Hebrews 6:4-6; Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 John 5:16)
Uh oh...I sense a free willy coming on...
Uh oh...I sense a free willy coming on...
first of all let's turn it around ;because I don't know what you want from me.
second how about you tell me.
I see what the scripture says and I believe in what the word of God but what am I commenting on?
Darren
Uh oh...I sense a free willy coming on...
How do I explain sinning agianst the Holy Spirit? I don't what do you want from me?
Darren
Uh uh. I've been here five years. I've made myself known. I'm not going to repeat it all again. You can do like I do and go research. That after all is part of "Gnosis".
To sin against the Holy Spirit is human free will. After all, God can not sin against God. (I didn't say it was wise, only that it is free will, clear as mud)
Thank You so much for asking these questions. I will ansewer the second part first. OK you asked for it here it goes.
1. God's plan is to create the physical carnal image of humanity into the spiritual Sons and Daughters in His ( God ) very image.
Question, But how does God get them? To be in the image of God means that we will have the VERY same CHARATER and LOVE of God. Charater and love can not be created instantly. It can only be developed over a period of a life time. It is under great pressures and duress that forms our charater. So God creates the sever pressures and duress in which produce Godly Charater.
We ourselves would never ever really apperciate the qualities of charater, virtue andlove that we will possess if we did not have to sweat blood to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of wvercomming some form of evil. Which brings me to the first question are we responsible for our actions?
Yes, most definetely we are responsible. As I have said that God creates our circumstances and we make the choices. Listen I said this many times over and over that God is not responsible for the choices we make. We are. Let's take Adam And Eve, Satan (serpent) tempted Eve. The serpent told Eve that she would be as God knowing good and evil and she would live forever. Now this is going to be very hard for you to hear. God created that whole situation(circumstances) in which Eve found herself. If she had free will or free choice why couldn't she choose to not eat of the fruit? I tell you why she could not make any other choice than the one she had made, Because God's Will is ALWAYS DONE. God's will was for Eve to know good and evil. Why would God put the tree of good and evil right smack in the middle of the garden and so appealing to the eyes. Why not put that tree in the corner out of site? Why put the tree in the garden in the first place if God had not intended to use it for His purpose.
Then Adam chose to eat of the fruit also. The both are responsible for their own choices. In the end we are all responsible for our own choice. We are judged by our works, our choices.
I hope that this helped you in someway. Look I am no teacher and I don't know scripture off the top of my head. It takes me a very long time to look these scriptures up. Once I find the scriptures it is proof to me that God had said it. Scripture can not be broke, God does not lie and God does not change. So if God said it in ancient times it is still vailed today.
Thanks for you time and questions,
Darren
Where do you get your reference from? Not from the Bible. How do even come to that conclusion
Darren
Once I apologies for being rude to you, Man was that a mistake.
WOW 5 whole yrs. and you made yourself known. WOW! you are the big man on campus. Repeat what? Those TEN little words? To sin against the Holy Spirit is human free will. WOW!! I sure would have hated to take up your valuable time.
Research,, is that what you call it?? I call it wasting your time.
You have no proof of anything you said to me. All you have is your opinion and opinions are like BLEEP & everybody has one.
I gave you chapter and verse, scriptures, proof, that's if you really believe in the Word of God. I see that you don't. You try to disprove everything I said. All the ansewers to the questions YOU asked. WHY? because YOU ARE NOT OF GOD. So instead of polluting the minds of the people on this site that are truly interested in learning about The Word Of God by and through scripture and not man made doctrines or you opinion,, stick to what you know, which is nothing of any value. What a wast of 5 yrs.
Darren
I don't. Your the one with 5 yrs on this site, you must have learned something.
Darren
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Actually, I've only been here 3 years.
Here's a quote that demonstrates how both free will and determinism can co-exist and interact. You might want to consider this as a possibility. It can explain both the predestination in the scriptures, and the sinning against the Holy Spirit being an act of free-will.
Life is like a game of cards. The hand you are dealt is determinism; the way you play it is free will.
--Jawaharial Nehru (1889-1964) Indian politician
If God helps you out by dealing you the grace of the Holy Spirit, and you stomp all over God's mercy, is that predetermined?--Jawaharial Nehru (1889-1964) Indian politician
I did give you chapter and verse from the scriptures regarding sinning against the Holy Spirit, one being a record of Jesus speaking about it.
Am I also polluting minds by bringing up these scriptures? Are you also going to say that I am not of God because I counter your arguments with scripture?
If you talking about willfully sinning. The word willfully does not mean to sin without cause. there still is a cause why you sined in the first place. pluse you don't understand the correct translation of the word willfully. The correct translation is voluntarily (g1596) Hekousios, (hek-oo-see-ece) adverb from the same as voluntarily(willfully) or willingly.
I looked up each scripture you told me and Heb.10:26-29 is the only scripture that mentions anything about sinning willfully.
If one was to sin against the Holy spirit They would have to have a hatered against God and that hatred would come from the heart where all evil in humans starts. therefore the cause of their sin would be their heart.
If you can counter mine with the correct scripture that fine.
are you of God I have no Idea and I really don't care.
are you polluting minds probably.
There is one thing I would lioke to know.
Are you quahome1's old lady? because you sure jumped in on his behalf.
In case you are blind as well as haveing to feed your ego, I was not even speaking to or about you so why do you have to try to put me down.
I guess you just don't have anything better to do.
3yrs. WOW you are the second Big man on campus.
you and quahome1 make a good pair. together you have 8 yrs of nothing.
Darren
seattlegal
Mercuræn Buddhist
Regarding sinning against the Holy Spirit, freedom, and self-control: please consider Galations 5, an excerpt of which I will post here:
Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
You are correct in saying that hatred is from the heart--it is a work of the flesh, and causes many people to do what they don't want to do. However, one of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control, which empowers you to overcome the fleshly desires within your heart. God, in His mercy, brings us the Spirit which will allow us to overcome these things which enslave us. However, by giving us the freedom to overcome the flesh, we are also given the freedom to cling to the works of the flesh. (We can do nothing without God.) When you are empowered by the Holy Spirit to overcome the evil urges that arise within your heart, but you willfully refuse to to do so, would that not be sinning against the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't that make rejecting self-control be the same as rejecting the Holy Spirit?16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
If I was of God, wouldn't you want to listen? Haven't you already made up your mind by not caring, and continue to cling to the flesh?
Because I don't agree with you, but follow the scriptures instead, and cite the scripture?
Actually, you attacked me first, if you care enough to check the posts.
Just what would you call this, then?
I would say that attacking someone unprovoked, then blaming the victim for the attack is the height of dishonesty. If you consider my providing the correct information for your faulty information an attack, what would you call your above referenced post?
Perhaps you might like to contemplate the above referenced passage from Galatians 5?