The myth of free will

[dailogue is the best]

God's plan is to create the physical carnal image of humanity into the spiritual Sons and Daughters in His ( God ) very image.

Question, But how does God get them? To be in the image of God means that we will have the VERY same CHARATER and LOVE of God. Charater and love can not be created instantly. It can only be developed over a period of a life time. It is under great pressures and duress that forms our charater. So God creates the sever pressures and duress in which produce Godly Charater.

We ourselves would never ever really apperciate the qualities of charater, virtue and love that we will possess if we did not have to sweat blood to get them. There is no virtue that you can name that is not the result of overcomming some form of evil. Which brings me to the first question are we responsible for our actions?

All what you have written so far is amazing, wonderful and excellent, Darren. I agree with you in most of them. God created us so that we can promote and develop ourselves spiritually to get near and close Him. The more we seed love in our heart and adopt God's traits, the closer we get to God. In other words, God created us so that we can build a relation of love with Him. How can we achieve this love? simply through following His teachings.

Also, your words: "It is under great pressures and duress that forms our charater. So God creates the sever pressures and duress in which produce Godly Charater" are very true. Our love to God is always tested by Him. We are put in situations (either luxirious or disstressful) wherien we are tested how much we love Him, and we are sbmitting to Him. Those hard situations we pass by help us to get closer and closer to Him. God created us to show us mercy and love. And those who choose to take the wrong path are doing harm to no one but themselves.

Yes, most definetely we are responsible. As I have said that God creates our circumstances and we make the choices. Listen I said this many times over and over that God is not responsible for the choices we make. We are. Let's take Adam And Eve, Satan (serpent) tempted Eve. The serpent told Eve that she would be as God knowing good and evil and she would live forever. Now this is going to be very hard for you to hear.

God created that whole situation(circumstances) in which Eve found herself. If she had free will or free choice why couldn't she choose to not eat of the fruit?I tell you why she could not make any other choice than the one she had made, Because God's Will is ALWAYS DONE.God's will was for Eve to know good and evil.Why would God put the tree of good and evil right smack in the middle of the garden and so appealing to the eyes. Why not put that tree in the corner out of site? Why put the tree in the garden in the first place if God had not intended to use it for His purpose.
Then Adam chose to eat of the fruit also. They both are responsible for their own choices. In the end we are all responsible for our own choice. We are judged by our works, our choices.

Darren

A lot of people misunderstand the wisdom behind the story of Adam and Eve. I will try to explain one after one, depending on your above sentences, and I will use coloured numbers to explain each sentence.

1. Very nice, Darren. Who told you that this news would be very hard for me to receive?! On the contrary, this is what I believe in. As we said above, God created us so that we can build a relation of love with Him. This love is always subject to tests and trials. Through these trials and tests, God says to us: "oh! My servant. I showed you the right and the wrong. I showed you what I love and what I don’t. Now, I put you in this test/ trial, let's show me how much you love me, and how much you are stick to My Words?
We face these trials/tests by God in continuous way, everyday, and every moment. We have to choose: either to choose what He loves or not.

2. Who told you that she couldnt choose not to eat, Darren? Is it mentioned in the Scriptures?!! She could have chose not to eat, but she didnt. It's her own choice. She was put in test, and she failed. Man always choose to surrender to his whims and desires. He/ she prefers the temporary joy, then the lasting one. Plus, it shows that one needs patience in order to be stick to God.

3. The story of Adam and Eve is a story of training of man how to deal with life. It is a preparation from God to Adam and Eve, and hence all humanity. The lessons we get from this story were as follows:
1. We should listen to God. God's Words are always true. We should do our best to maintain and develop love with Him because it is the only One who really care for us.
2. We should be carefull of Satan. He will always try to deviate us from God's way. Satan/ego/soul's whims,desires....
3. Our love to God is tested (the tree manifests the tests we face everyday in our life, and which may draw us away from God's way)
4. We are in paradise, esp internal one, since we are stick to God's words.
5. In case we make the wrong choice, there is always a room for us to repent, and obtain God's forgiveness. ( In the Quran, God forgave them both). Hence, forgiveness and repentance play a big role in our spiritual development.
6. The story of Adam and Eve was only God's training to mankind how to rule this life. Through the story, God showed us His Words, tests, our enemy, our will, and repentence and forgiveness (so that those who mistake shall never fell that the door of God is closed in front of their faces)

4. Simply because it was a test: "show me how much you love me, My servant?"

5. Yes, Darren. God used it for a purpose, and this purpose was/is/will be to test us how much we love and how much we are committed to His teachings.

 

[Dogbrain]

Yes, most definetely we are responsible.

Responsibility requires a free choice. To the extent that a choice and the will behind it are not free, there is a corresponding lack of responsibility. If there is no free will, there is no responsibility.

If there is no free will, then God is the most evil being to have ever existed, and that is all there is to that.

Why do you keep portraying God as such a vile, evil, hateworthy creature?

 

[dailogue is the best]

Responsibility requires a free choice. To the extent that a choice and the will behind it are not free, there is a corresponding lack of responsibility. If there is no free will, there is no responsibility.

If there is no free will, then God is the most evil being to have ever existed, and that is all there is to that.

Why do you keep portraying God as such a vile, evil, hateworthy creature?

Hello, Dogbrain

Actually, you are misunderstanding Darren. Darren doesn’t want to say that we aren't responsible of our choices, or that we dont choose what we want. No. He simply believes that any action we take is CAUSED by something/someone. And he sees that cause as pushing us to take action, and hence our actions arent free. He wants to say that our actions come as a result of certain circumstances, and without those circumstances, we wouldnt take any action.

We can solve this dilemma because in a way or another, we agree with Darren that circumstances push us to take actions. But it is we who deliberately take that action: either right or wrong.

Darren sees that the cause is what makes our wills not free. He simply wants to say that our wills aren’t free from cause. I agree with him in that. He also says that we are responsible for our actions.

I may conclude Darren’s idea on the following statement: We are free to choose our actions, but we aren’t free to choose their causes. (is this exactly what you want to say, Darren?) If the case is so, I agree with you.

However, this doesn’t mean that free will is myth. Free will is real. Free will does exist as long as we choose deliberately, and we are responsible for our choices. The issue that there is cause/ situations, sometimes internal and sometimes external, doesn’t eradicate the fact that we are free to choose: to surrender or resist. We need patience, strength, and commitment to God’s words to choose right.

From all these we can’t accuse Darren of portraying God as the source of anything not good.

PS: Sorry, Dogbrain and Darren for the interference. But, I think that Darren has some sort of reality in what he says. Yet, Darren sees that causes constitute an abolishment of free will, which isn’t the case. We are free-willed, though we don’t choose our situations, which are nothing but God’s testing of our love to Him.

You wrote something about predestination, Dogbrain. I would like to know how do you look at predestination. Looking forward for your answer.

Thank you

 

[Quahom1]

Where do you get your reference from? Not from the Bible. How do even come to that conclusion

Darren

Maybe, just maybe, I have a personal relationship with God...ever consider that?

Afterall, the Bible is simply a pre-school reader. After that, you have to strive for the PHD, and that comes from life's experiences. Or do only Gnostics have that market cornered?

Before you answer...

Je pense et apprends…
Я думаю и учу…
Ich denke und erlerne…
Pienso y aprendo…
I think and learn...

That is part of my purpose in life.

 

[winner08]

Someone in this thread said my point of view implies 'God is evil', to which I say 'let God be true and every man a liar' and 'Go to the ant!' If an evil God seems implied by absolute predestiny, then one or both of us humans made some wrong assumptions but don't assume that its me. I accept absolute predestiny. I don't think that God's judgment and salvation is about my little life but about God's principles being shown in it, a 'vessel unto honor' or a 'vessel unto destruction'.

Dream I never though it was you who said God was evil. I was just showing you that God created good and evil and also that God is pure love that he can't even be evil. So no I wan't speaking of you, someone said that you point of view implied that you said God was evil. Dream just from the small amount of time I spent on this site and read what you have written I know one thin for sure, and that is you are of God and you love Him. You would never say God is evil.

In God we trust.
Darren

 

[winner08]

Maybe, just maybe, I have a personal relationship with God...ever consider that?

Afterall, the Bible is simply a pre-school reader. After that, you have to strive for the PHD, and that comes from life's experiences. Or do only Gnostics have that market cornered?

Before you answer...

Je pense et apprends…
Я думаю и учу…
Ich denke und erlerne…
Pienso y aprendo…
I think and learn...

That is part of my purpose in life.

Quahom1 I don't know if you do are don't have a relationship with God.
If so, great if not ,great. That's between God and you.

If you trying to impress me with you language skills dont bother I can care less.

You know, your probable a nice person but it hard to tell through all that rudness and attitude.

Darren

 

[winner08]

Hello, Dogbrain

Actually, you are misunderstanding Darren. Darren doesn’t want to say that we aren't responsible of our choices, or that we dont choose what we want. No. He simply believes that any action we take is CAUSED by something/someone. And he sees that cause as pushing us to take action, and hence our actions arent free. He wants to say that our actions come as a result of certain circumstances, and without those circumstances, we wouldnt take any action.

We can solve this dilemma because in a way or another, we agree with Darren that circumstances push us to take actions. But it is we who deliberately take that action: either right or wrong.

Darren sees that the cause is what makes our wills not free. He simply wants to say that our wills aren’t free from cause. I agree with him in that. He also says that we are responsible for our actions.

I may conclude Darren’s idea on the following statement: We are free to choose our actions, but we aren’t free to choose their causes. (is this exactly what you want to say, Darren?) If the case is so, I agree with you.

However, this doesn’t mean that free will is myth. Free will is real. Free will does exist as long as we choose deliberately, and we are responsible for our choices. The issue that there is cause/ situations, sometimes internal and sometimes external, doesn’t eradicate the fact that we are free to choose: to surrender or resist. We need patience, strength, and commitment to God’s words to choose right.

From all these we can’t accuse Darren of portraying God as the source of anything not good.

PS: Sorry, Dogbrain and Darren for the interference. But, I think that Darren has some sort of reality in what he says. Yet, Darren sees that causes constitute an abolishment of free will, which isn’t the case. We are free-willed, though we don’t choose our situations, which are nothing but God’s testing of our love to Him.

You wrote something about predestination, Dogbrain. I would like to know how do you look at predestination. Looking forward for your answer.

Thank you

I think you are trying to help explain me stance on this subject.
And I thank you for the attempt.

1. I do say and stand by my belief. God creats the circumstances we find ourselves in and WE MAKE our OWN choices.
Let me be as clear as possible, GOD IS NOT responsible for(CHOICES).

Here are a few scriptures that explains that God's will is always done and man has no free will.

1.For it is GOD which works in both to WILL and to DO of HIS goods pleasure.
What does this say to you??
2. Eph1:11 :In whom also we have obtained an inheritance being PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM (GOD). Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WLL.
What does this say to you??
3. Eph 2:8 Through grace you have been saved through faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of GOD least anyone should boast.
what does this say to you??
3. John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides IN ME and I IN HIM bears much fruit FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.
what about this one??
These three scriptures are speaking of God's will and that we can do nothing without HIM also that God has all the will and our will is nothing. Gods will is always done not ours.

When I say we don't have free will or free choice, or that we can't think or that we don't have a brain or that we can"t process info or that we can not learn or that we don't even have a mind. I never said any such thing and Neither has the Bible. Of course we have a will we can make choices we can learn,study and make plans. But we do not have free UNCAUSED CHOICES and UNCAUSED WILLS. This is what I said and This is my belief and it is proven in scripture and scripture is the word of God and it can not be broken or changed.

God does not make you do anything. You volunteer, that is why we all will be judge by what we do.

Yes I agree we free to choose our action(choices) but we are not free to choose the causes. That is what influences us to make the choices that we make.

I don't understand what you mean by free will exist as long as we choose deliberately. and are responsible for our choices.

ansewer me this. How is it possible that one can make a choice, any choice, deliberatley or not, without a cause effecting the choice one made. I hope I asked that question right.

Darren

 

[winner08]

Regarding sinning against the Holy Spirit, freedom, and self-control: please consider Galations 5, an excerpt of which I will post here:

Galatians 5:16-26
16 I say then, walk by the Spirit and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is against the Spirit, and the Spirit desires what is against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you don't do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, moral impurity, promiscuity, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambitions, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and anything similar, about which I tell you in advance—as I told you before—that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, we must also follow the Spirit. 26 We must not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.
​

You are correct in saying that hatred is from the heart--it is a work of the flesh, and causes many people to do what they don't want to do. However, one of the Fruits of the Holy Spirit is self-control, which empowers you to overcome the fleshly desires within your heart. God, in His mercy, brings us the Spirit which will allow us to overcome these things which enslave us. However, by giving us the freedom to overcome the flesh, we are also given the freedom to cling to the works of the flesh. (We can do nothing without God.) When you are empowered by the Holy Spirit to overcome the evil urges that arise within your heart, but you willfully refuse to to do so, would that not be sinning against the Holy Spirit? Wouldn't that make rejecting self-control be the same as rejecting the Holy Spirit?


If I was of God, wouldn't you want to listen? Haven't you already made up your mind by not caring, and continue to cling to the flesh?


Because I don't agree with you, but follow the scriptures instead, and cite the scripture?


Actually, you attacked me first, if you care enough to check the posts.

Just what would you call this, then?
I would say that attacking someone unprovoked, then blaming the victim for the attack is the height of dishonesty. If you consider my providing the correct information for your faulty information an attack, what would you call your above referenced post?


Perhaps you might like to contemplate the above referenced passage from Galatians 5?

First of all and let me make this perfectly clear.

I AM SORRY. Sorry because I mix you uup with another person in this thread. I never intended my sarcasams toward you. So please except my apologies.

You know what I really dont know what you are talking about I don't realy understand what this thread free will has to do with rejecting the Holy Spirit.
If you trying to prove me wrong you not going to do it.

You do not have free will. You can not make a choice without a cause.

For every choice you make no matter what situation you find yourself in, there is something or someone that has CAUSED you to make that choice, no matter what the choice was that you made.

I showed where the word willfully in the original text is voluntarily
hekousious, hek-oo-see-oce. In the greek and hebrew strong's concordance.

As I said we are all responsible for our choices.l
I did what I could to show you what scripture says about free will. I gave many, there will always be people who try to twist them around to try to fit there own needs. This may not be you I don't know.

I really have nothing for you for I can do nothing of my ownself and I do and speak the Father's Will. He guides me. When He show's me I will relay it to you.

Darren

Question: What is the Holy Spirit???

P.S. Again I am Sorry for being so rude.

 

[seattlegal]

Darren, you might want to look up the definition of free-will:

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source - Share This
free will


The ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily. For many philosophers, to believe in free will is to believe that human beings can be the authors of their own actions and to reject the idea that human actions are determined by external conditions or fate. (See determinism, fatalism, and predestination.)

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share Thisfree will –noun 1.free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will. 2.Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.​

]

Notice how prominately the word voluntary is featured?
If you want to hijack the term 'free will,' and change the meaning to suit yourself, that's up to you. Personally, it reminds me of the Newspeak Dictionary from George Orwell's book, 1984.

Regarding your question about the Holy Spirit, please read John chapters 14-16.

 

[Quahom1]

Quahom1 I don't know if you do are don't have a relationship with God.
If so, great if not ,great. That's between God and you.

If you trying to impress me with you language skills dont bother I can care less.

You know, your probable a nice person but it hard to tell through all that rudness and attitude.

Darren

Answering your questions in the negative (because I don't agree) is not rudeness. Telling someone you could care less...well...

 

[dailogue is the best]

1.For it is GOD which works in both to WILL and to DO of HIS goods pleasure.
What does this say to you??

It says to me that God's will is always done. And it is God who gives me free will concerning taking action in the moral delimmas I always face in life.

2. Eph1:11 :In whom also we have obtained an inheritance being PREDESTINED ACCORDING TO THE PURPOSE OF HIM (GOD). Who works ALL THINGS after the counsel of HIS OWN WLL.

What does this say to you??

It says to me that the same as above.

3. Eph 2:8 Through grace you have been saved through faith and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is the gift of GOD least anyone should boast.

what does this say to you??

It says to me that We by ourselves are NOTHING, and if we dont be attached to God, we are nothing. And even if, we are attached to God, we shouldnt be so egostic and bosatfull, and say that we are saved by our faith and works. we are saved by God's mercy because no matter how devout believers we are, me make mistakes from now and then, like hurting people emotinally, sometimes contempting others and look at them in an inferior way, thinking bad of others, talking in people’s back and..... We made mistakes all the time. How can we declare that salvation can be achieved by ourselves!!! It is out of God’s mercy that we might achieve salvation

This means that one shouldnt be arrogant no matter how devout believer he is. One's ego will inspire one of bad things, and if one doesnt keep stick to God, and be humble, and submitting to Him, one is Nothing, and he/she is always nothing.

3. John 15:5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides IN ME and I IN HIM bears much fruit FOR WITHOUT ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

what about this one??

OF COURSE without God we cant do nothing, Darren.

But we do not have free UNCAUSED CHOICES and UNCAUSED WILLS. This is what I said and This is my belief and it is proven in scripture and scripture is the word of God and it can not be broken or changed.

I agree 100%, Darren. I notice that you wrote “FREE UNCAUSED WILLS”. Now, all the members here are going to understand you very well, and now you are making yourself VERY CLEAR.

So, you wanted to say from the very beginning that we have free will (to choose), but we don’t have free uncaused wills. At last I understand you, man.

It is the title that has aroused misunderstanding between you and the members "The myth of free will". You should have written «the myth of free uncaused will"


You are right, Darren. And every cause that pushes us to take action is God's testing us in our love and commitment to Him. We shouldn’t neglect the cause at all.

Yes I agree we free to choose our action(choices) but we are not free to choose the causes. That is what influences us to make the choices that we make.

Causes don’t influence us, Darren, unless we surrender. It is up to us.

I don't understand what you mean by free will exist as long as we choose deliberately. and are responsible for our choices.

Answer me this. How is it possible that one can make a choice, any choice, deliberately or not, without a cause affecting the choice one made? I hope I asked that question right.

Darren

Causes whom I see as God's testing are two types: internal and external.

1) Internal causes:

A) Negative feelings: envy, hatred, jealousy, contempt, arrogance, lusts.... Example: You are home, and your ego inspires you of watching a porno movie for instance.
This cause is from inside (Satan’s inspiration). But, does it really affect you, or is it up to you to surrender or not? Two persons may take different choices. So, it is up to one’s principles and how much he/she is attached and depending on God

B) Positive feelings: love, peace, giving, compassion, care, mercy…
Example: Suddenly you remember your childhood friend that you haven’t seen him a long time ago, and think of making him a visit.
This cause is from inside (angel’s inspiration/ from God). Now, it is up to you to respond or not. Two persons may take different actions. This cause may affect two persons in different way according to one’s principles. One would say: “ oh! I really miss him. Let’s make him a visit” Another one may say: “ oh! What about him?!! Why shall I think of him? Why he doesn’t think of me?!!”

2) External causes:
These are the things we face daily in our life: Seeing poor people, being offred bribe, being seduced to take drugs, to make illegal sexual relationship, to go to bad places… Now, it is up to you to choose or not? The causes don’t affect anyone unless he/she gives them a chance.

NB: Any external cause is not the mere reason behind our choice. We shouldnt forget the inner causes (Satan/Angel) that are struggling inside us , and it is up to us to choose to which side we should submit and surrender. And be sure as long as your relation with God is firm and deep, God will always inspire you to choose rightly. That’s why without God we are nothing.

From all these, Darren we come to the conclusion: It is right that we don’t have free uncaused will, but it it very true that we have free will to choose right or wrong.

Apart from these, anything else that happens to us which we have no hand in, and which doesn’t stand as a moral dilemma like accidents which change our plans, these things we aren’t responsible of/ we have no will in, and they are put in our ways by God for sure, and for a wisdom for sure. Any thing happens in this world is for wisdom. God is all Wise.

 

[juantoo3]

Apart from these, anything else that happens to us which we have no hand in, and which doesn’t stand as a moral dilemma like accidents which change our plans, these things we aren’t responsible of/ we have no will in, and they are put in our ways by God for sure, and for a wisdom for sure. Any thing happens in this world is for wisdom. God is all Wise.

Well said, Dialogue is Best.

 

[dailogue is the best]

Well said, Dialogue is Best.

Thanks, Juantoo3.

 

[winner08]

It says to me that God's will is always done. And it is God who gives me free will concerning taking action in the moral delimmas I always face in life.



It says to me that the same as above.




It says to me that We by ourselves are NOTHING, and if we dont be attached to God, we are nothing. And even if, we are attached to God, we shouldnt be so egostic and bosatfull, and say that we are saved by our faith and works. we are saved by God's mercy because no matter how devout believers we are, me make mistakes from now and then, like hurting people emotinally, sometimes contempting others and look at them in an inferior way, thinking bad of others, talking in people’s back and..... We made mistakes all the time. How can we declare that salvation can be achieved by ourselves!!! It is out of God’s mercy that we might achieve salvation

This means that one shouldnt be arrogant no matter how devout believer he is. One's ego will inspire one of bad things, and if one doesnt keep stick to God, and be humble, and submitting to Him, one is Nothing, and he/she is always nothing.




OF COURSE without God we cant do nothing, Darren.



I agree 100%, Darren. I notice that you wrote “FREE UNCAUSED WILLS”. Now, all the members here are going to understand you very well, and now you are making yourself VERY CLEAR.

So, you wanted to say from the very beginning that we have free will (to choose), but we don’t have free uncaused wills. At last I understand you, man.

It is the title that has aroused misunderstanding between you and the members "The myth of free will". You should have written «the myth of free uncaused will"


You are right, Darren. And every cause that pushes us to take action is God's testing us in our love and commitment to Him. We shouldn’t neglect the cause at all.



Causes don’t influence us, Darren, unless we surrender. It is up to us.



Causes whom I see as God's testing are two types: internal and external.

1) Internal causes:

A) Negative feelings: envy, hatred, jealousy, contempt, arrogance, lusts.... Example: You are home, and your ego inspires you of watching a porno movie for instance.
This cause is from inside (Satan’s inspiration). But, does it really affect you, or is it up to you to surrender or not? Two persons may take different choices. So, it is up to one’s principles and how much he/she is attached and depending on God

B) Positive feelings: love, peace, giving, compassion, care, mercy…
Example: Suddenly you remember your childhood friend that you haven’t seen him a long time ago, and think of making him a visit.
This cause is from inside (angel’s inspiration/ from God). Now, it is up to you to respond or not. Two persons may take different actions. This cause may affect two persons in different way according to one’s principles. One would say: “ oh! I really miss him. Let’s make him a visit” Another one may say: “ oh! What about him?!! Why shall I think of him? Why he doesn’t think of me?!!”

2) External causes:
These are the things we face daily in our life: Seeing poor people, being offred bribe, being seduced to take drugs, to make illegal sexual relationship, to go to bad places… Now, it is up to you to choose or not? The causes don’t affect anyone unless he/she gives them a chance.

NB: Any external cause is not the mere reason behind our choice. We shouldnt forget the inner causes (Satan/Angel) that are struggling inside us , and it is up to us to choose to which side we should submit and surrender. And be sure as long as your relation with God is firm and deep, God will always inspire you to choose rightly. That’s why without God we are nothing.

From all these, Darren we come to the conclusion: It is right that we don’t have free uncaused will, but it it very true that we have free will to choose right or wrong.

Apart from these, anything else that happens to us which we have no hand in, and which doesn’t stand as a moral dilemma like accidents which change our plans, these things we aren’t responsible of/ we have no will in, and they are put in our ways by God for sure, and for a wisdom for sure. Any thing happens in this world is for wisdom. God is all Wise.

I thought that is what I had been saying all this time.

we make our own choices but we don't have fee will a will that has no cause. a choice that has no cause. What did I say that threw yall??

I never said I was a teacher I don't have the knowledge, or the language to choose my words correctly when trying to convey a message.

I thought I was doing a good job.

 

[winner08]

Answering your questions in the negative (because I don't agree) is not rudeness. Telling someone you could care less...well...

Your not only rude to me but many others on this site. If I can care less is being rude so be it.
darren

 

[winner08]

Darren, you might want to look up the definition of free-will:

American Heritage New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition - Cite This Source - Share This
free will


The ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily. For many philosophers, to believe in free will is to believe that human beings can be the authors of their own actions and to reject the idea that human actions are determined by external conditions or fate. (See determinism, fatalism, and predestination.)

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share Thisfree will –noun 1.free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will. 2.Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
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Notice how prominately the word voluntary is featured?
If you want to hijack the term 'free will,' and change the meaning to suit yourself, that's up to you. Personally, it reminds me of the Newspeak Dictionary from George Orwell's book, 1984.

Regarding your question about the Holy Spirit, please read John chapters 14-16.

Look, we will never agree on this or probable anything else. I know you or anybody else has Free will (uncaused free will). I gave you my opinion and you gave me your leave it at that. If you want to twist the words arroundd to fit your belief, fine. It dosen't mean you know anything.

 

[Dogbrain]

If there is no free will, there is no moral responsibility. If there is no free will, then God is more evil than Satan.

 

[winner08]

If there is no free will, there is no moral responsibility. If there is no free will, then God is more evil than Satan.

How do you come to that conclusion? Just because one does not have free will does not mean we don't make choices. The choices we make are, I was strongly made aware of are voluntarily made. We still have morails to uphold. Can anybody understand?

If one belives God has forknowledge then how can you believe we have free will (think about it). If God knows everything ahead of time If He knows what we are going to do and what we are thinking then how could we have free will it contradicts. We all know that scripture does not contradicts. Scripture is the word of God and if you believe in the word of God then you must believe in what the word of God says. God has forknowledge. God does not change, God does not lie and God knows the end from the beginning. This is Scripture .This is the word of God .If God knows the end from the beginning then how could we have free will or uncaused will and uncaused choice. Once again I will say if we have free will and choices that are not caused then God would have to change. His plan for mankind would be changing His mind, every second of every day. All I ask is to think about it. Thats all. I am just telling you my side. My beliefs. I thought that this is what this format is for to discuss our beliefs to one and other.

 

[winner08]

I thought that is what I had been saying all this time.

we make our own choices but we don't have fee will a will that has no cause. a choice that has no cause. What did I say that threw yall??

I never said I was a teacher I don't have the knowledge, or the language to choose my words correctly when trying to convey a message.

I thought I was doing a good job.

Wrong, people here don't understand. It dosen't matter how I explain it or don't explain it they just don't get it. It's cool, some here will get it one day. When God opens their eyes. Other will never get it. It's not in God's will for them to understand. Then are are some who just want to try to make themseleves look good. The only way they can do that is by trashing the other person. talking down to them instead of listening.You know the type, The I know everything and i am always right type. They're here they know who they are. Watch they will be the one that come at me with their knowitall attiudes.

 

[winner08]

Answering your questions in the negative (because I don't agree) is not rudeness. Telling someone you could care less...well...

How can you tell with your smart remarks to everyone. Your condacending attitude toward other and your rudeness. BTW I can show you proof through scripture, through the word of God yet you can prove anything you say, all you can do is give your opinion. You call it answering my questions in the negative. You can't do it. Why because there is no scripture saying we have free will and uncaused choice. Like I said show me one scripture where it says we have free will. Then I will leave it at that.