what is the holy spirit for you ?

[Quahom1]

Nice propaganda job, Mee ...


That's one way of looking at it.

The other way is to trace Rutherford's rise through the ranks, to take over the society and change it's course considerably. Centralised authority, sole control of the editorial content of The WatchTower, a very suspect posthumous edition of Russell's work, the getting rid of those who wished to see Russell's ideas continued ...

Looked like a Putsch to me.

As you can imagine, though, such exposing of false teachings angered the clergy of Christendom.
Or rather, the false teaching and misunderstandings that led people into error angered the clergy.


Sadly, many misguided souls convince themselves that the voice they hear is God's, and not simply the voice of their own desires ...


Actually, Rutherford got rid of them. The society lost 75% of its membership as Rutherford took control.

Rutheford was a door-to-door encyclopaedia salesman ... and like all salesmen, he saw a golden selling opportunity, and you guys have been selling door-to-door ever since.

The very nature of the Jehovah's Witnesses is based on Rutherford's experience as a salesman. Definitely a man-made doctrine!

Thomas

The irony is that some will inadvertently open themselves up for scrutiny, then shut down when the invite is accepted, and their history revealed.

Topic was brought up before... http://www.interfaith.org/forum/debating-jw-faith-6844-6.html#post97995

http://www.interfaith.org/forum/identifying-babylon-the-great-5601-9.html#post77638

v/r

Q

 

[seattlegal]

Fishing partner

Fishing partner...I like that.

 

[Quahom1]

Fishing partner...I like that.

yeah, best kind...he tells me which side of the boat to cast on...

 

[Nick_A]

Hi Thomas

Our essential difference seems to be in appreciating the human condition. I believe that Paul was quite accurate in calling himself the "wretched man" in Romans 7 and have come to believe that it is the human condition. as a whole

You believe it elitist for someone to admit the fact and that we need new eyes to see and ears to hear and as we are, we are incapable of faith, hope, and love, as would exist in the "New Man." You believe this is intellectual while I know that verifying these things requires the cooperative efforts of ones thought, emotion, and sensory contact with external life. This to me is the great deception in that we think we are what we are not and do not have the humility to admit it..

Prof. Needleman describes Christian love in his book "Lost Christianity" on p.221

.........What does it mean to help another human being? No sooner is the question put that way, however than one is assaulted by clichés: feed the hungry, shelter the poor. But surely such actions can only be praised as "virtue" for abnormally egoistic human beings. Is it really an act of transcendent love to throw a rope to a drowning man? Has our understanding of the aims of social order become so distorted that we regard a natural human response to the other's suffering as a noble act of sacrifice? Surely the answer is yes, with the consequences that the Christian commandment to love has been reduced to demands relating to only one aspect of the whole human nature in ourselves and in others: the aspect we may term "the body," always remembering that under this term are also included the thoughts and emotions mistakenly identified as "the soul."
From all that has been discussed in this book, it is clear that the essential expression of Christian love is, in its roots, the commandment to transmit the teaching.

To love my neighbor is to assist the arising and unfolding in him of that which can harmonize the real elements of his nature. Such exalted love, of course has many aspects corresponding to the level of being of the individual on each side of the relationship. But clearly the manifestation of Christian love, so defined, is possible only to the degree that a man has transmitted the truth to the whole of himself.

People imagine themselves Christian so think they can transmit the teaching. What should be an act of love becomes proselytizing. Is it elitist to admit this? If so I'm an elitist since it is an inner realization anyone taking Christianity seriously IMO must come to. Secular Christendom which takes these things superficially such as Christian love is not Christianity.

To be a Christian means being able to follow in the precepts of Christ. This doesn't satisfy our ego so anyone that calls themselves a Christian is a Christian in secular society. In reality it just means that we've devalued the teaching in secular society.

It is like art. Anyone calling themselves an artist is an artist in secular society that has lost the appreciation for what art is. Those that have not lost it are not so quick to call themselves artists.

Christianity is based on love, mercy, forgiveness ... we do not expect perfection of each other, nor do we introduce hierarchy, as in degrees of Christianity. All the angels in heaven, as it is said, delight in the return of each and every soul. That the journey has only started for that soul is of no matter, what matters is that it has begun.

But we are not Christian but rather pre-Christians. As such we are only capable of selective love, mercy, and forgiveness. You don't see this because you do not recognize hierarchy as do those like Father Sylvan who wrote:

"We must seek the bishop within ourselves. Only when I experience the natural hierarchy of Creation within myself, only when I directly experience supplicant, priest, archbishop, and Divide King within myself do I consciously become part of the sacred Wholeness. Only when my lower nature is naturally attracted toward obedience to the higher, can I, as a human being, in a worldly society, voluntarily obey the community of the teaching, or-as they used to say-the Elders of the Church. Through awareness of the attention of the body it is possible to see how even the instinctual desires obey the higher instantly, without violence. They have only needed contact for this natural obedience, this innate love of the Higher to become active. Ego prevents contact between the various sources of attention within the human organism; that is its evil and it is only that about it which needs to be destroyed. it is however, a very difficult task.

The church hierarchy was initially structured on knowledge of levels of human understanding. Secularism has abolished it so hierarchy remains as a shell in the church and forgotten about personally in relation to our own potential which serves our egoistic needs for feeling self important.

You don't respect the intellect because it is through the intellect that a seeker sees how Christianity has devolved into Christendom. It is the corrupted heart that is powerless to prevent egoistic emotion from accepting secular dominance. The heart needs the help of the head. Stoicism was quite right to appreciate this.

Sorry Nick, but if I want to understand something, I ask insiders, not outsiders. Outsiders, by virtue of being outside, don't know, they only assume they know. If they knew, they'd be inside, wouldn't they?

You worry about insiders and outsiders defined by secular standards and I seek those that have found the bishop within themselves and begun to deal with the human condition. This is our essential difference.

Yet you choose to freely criticise the Church. You may well understand Weil, but I am saying neither she nor you understands the Church.

And I say that we respect the esoteric or living church where you defend the exoteric church. This IMO is why you reject the esoteric church. The exoteric church justifies the human condition making it a source of power while the esoteric church seeks to heal it and allow those capable to become the New man. The exoteric church tries to control what people DO while the esoteric church deals with what we ARE in relation to human evolutionary potential.

I hope you are as satisfied with your teaching as I am with mine for allowing me to understand human meaning and purpose.

 

[Nick_A]

You are quite unique in your perspective on this interfaith forum, in considering me, not to be a Christian.

As for me and mine, we will follow the Lord.

We don't know each other. I must have confused you with someone else. My mistake. Sorry

 

[Quahom1]

We don't know each other. I must have confused you with someone else. My mistake. Sorry

no worries

 

[mee]

Or rather, the false teaching and misunderstandings that led people into error angered the clergy.

those who are into bible truth will have great opposition , especially from religious leaders who claim to represent God .

those who are into bible truth are JEHOVAHS WITNESSES and just as Jesus himself had great opposition from those who claimed to represent God ,so sincere bible students have had the same .


nothing changes does it ,for those who are into the truth

and religious leaders will go to great lengths to shut the truth of Gods word up .


and they (religious leaders)are the instigators of many things to try to shut the truth away from people .

and many are misled by those religious leaders , if they listen to them .


but no worries , 7 million on this earth right now, are into listening to the truth of the bible . and here they are spoken of in

REVELATION 7;9-10 And it is that GREAT CROWD that will get through the GREAT TRIBULATION REV 7;14


and Jehovah is speeding it up in its own time .

when i first became a JEHOVAHS WITNESS there were only 3 million of the great crowd, out there, that was in 1985 but now its 7 and the increase goes on .


JEHOVAHS purpose for the earth will be fullfilled , and no amount of opposition from religious leaders will stop JEHOVAHS will being done .


and the preaching about the GOODNEWS OF THE KINGDOM goes on , matthew 24;14


and Jesus sheep hear his voice so getting back to the holy spirit ,it sure is a force in motion

 

[Thomas]

Hi Nick —

Our essential difference seems to be in appreciating the human condition. I believe that Paul was quite accurate in calling himself the "wretched man" in Romans 7 and have come to believe that it is the human condition. as a whole

I see it rather differently I suppose, I accept the wretchedness of the human condition — we are fallen after all, which is a condition of our nature, not just some historical circumstance — but it's in the appreciation of the Divine Mercy that I think we differ by majority.

I agree that we are in a parlous condition: "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings" (Romans 8:26),

and nevertheless it is that "wretched man" who can still affirm:
"Who then shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation? or distress? or famine? or nakedness? or danger? or persecution? or the sword (As it is written: For thy sake we are put to death all the day long. We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.) But in all these things we overcome, because of him that hath loved us. For I am sure that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor might, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I am optimistic in that regard.

+++

The church hierarchy was initially structured on knowledge of levels of human understanding.

If you mean pastoral considerations, I would agree. If you mean on intellectual elitism, I rather think not. Can you demonstrate that? Names and dates?

It seems to me the reality suggests otherwise. Clement and Origen ran catechetical schools but were not part of the Church's hierarchy. Athanasius, a genius by any standard, was the secretary to a bishop. Augustine, on the other hand, was a bishop, but one among hundreds, by that time.

... And I say that we respect the esoteric or living church where you defend the exoteric church. This IMO is why you reject the esoteric church. The exoteric church justifies the human condition making it a source of power while the esoteric church seeks to heal it and allow those capable to become the New man. The exoteric church tries to control what people DO while the esoteric church deals with what we ARE in relation to human evolutionary potential.

Ah, the old esoteric/exoteric chestnut. I did wonder.

Well those who know me here know what I think of that. Christian esoterism, yes, of course, according to the nature of things ... but Esoteric Christianity, as something discreet and 'other', for the elite, no.

Thomas

 

[Quahom1]

those who are into bible truth will have great opposition , especially from religious leaders who claim to represent God .

those who are into bible truth are JEHOVAHS WITNESSES and just as Jesus himself had great opposition from those who claimed to represent God ,so sincere bible students have had the same .

That is just YOUR opinion. Certainly not the majority of Christians who truly look to the bible. And they certainly do not use your version of the Bible.

What care you of the holy spirit of God? it is simply a force...

 

[mee]

and you guys have been selling door-to-door ever since.



Thomas

its good to do things inline with Jesus ,and yes Jehovahs witness are the ones doing it


Jehovah’s Witnesses continue their zealous door-to-door ministry, thus fulfilling in these modern times the command of Jesus Christ: "You will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth."—Acts 1:8.


yes ,just as the early Christians who preached publicly "and from house to house"

Acts 5:42; 20:20, Douay Version.


so do JEHOVAHS WITNESSES


and as Paul: said , ‘Woe to me if I do not preach the Gospel! (1 Co 9:16).


"I did not flinch from . . . teaching you publicly and from house to house."—ACTS 20:20, "Byington."

Yes, Jehovah’s Witnesses are well-known for their effective house-to-house ministry.


Jesus Christ gave his followers this meaningful commission: "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And, look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things." (Matthew 28:19, 20)



The principal way in which that work would be done became evident immediately after the day of Pentecost 33 C.E. "Every day in the temple and from house to house they continued without letup teaching and declaring the good news about the Christ, Jesus." (Acts 5:42)



Some 20 years later, the apostle Paul was engaging in the house-to-house ministry, for he reminded Christian elders from the city of Ephesus: "I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house."—Acts 20:20.


thats the way to do it

 

[leastone]

I was wondeing, mee, if your five thousand three hundred and ninety posts have resulted in any e-conversions?

If not, should you not be outdoors, going from house to house? Just look what that did for Obama.

No disrepect intended.



Learner

 

[mee]

That is just YOUR opinion. quote]

Objects of Hatred by All the Nations ​

DURING the last evening that Jesus spent with his apostles before his death, he reminded them: "A slave is not greater than his master. If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also; if they have observed my word, they will observe yours also. But they will do all these things against you on account of my name, because they do not know him that sent me."—John 15:20, 21. ​

It was not merely isolated instances of intolerance that Jesus had in mind. Just three days earlier, he had said: "You will be objects of hatred by all the nations on account of my name."—Matt. 24:9. ​

Yet, Jesus counseled his followers that when faced with persecution, they must not resort to carnal weapons. (Matt. 26:48-52) ​

They were not to revile their persecutors or seek to retaliate. (Rom. 12:14; 1 Pet. 2:21-23) ​

Might it not be that even those persecutors would someday become believers? (Acts 2:36-42; 7:58–8:1; 9:1-22) ​

Any settling of accounts was to be left to God.—Rom. 12:17-19. ​

It is well-known that early Christians were cruelly persecuted by the Roman government. But it is also noteworthy that the foremost persecutors of Jesus Christ were the religious leaders and that Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor, had Jesus executed because they demanded it. (Luke 23:13-25) ​

After Jesus’ death it was once again the religious leaders who were in the forefront as persecutors of Jesus’ followers. (Acts 4:1-22; 5:17-32; 9:1, 2) ​

Has that not also been the pattern in more recent times? INDEED IT HAS ​

in their desperate efforts to kill the influence of C. T. Russell and his associates, the clergy belittled the claim that he was a Christian minister. ​

For similar reasons, the Jewish religious leaders in the first century treated the apostles Peter and John as "men unlettered and ordinary."—Acts 4:13. ​

It is evident that the clergy have used the same sort of tactics that were employed by their first-century counterparts. ​

Even though lying accusations are made against them and they are physically abused, even taunted for their faith in God, Jehovah’s Witnesses do not feel forsaken by God. ​

They know that Jesus Christ experienced the same things. (Matt. 27:43) ​

They also know that by his loyalty to Jehovah, Jesus proved the Devil a liar and contributed to the sanctification of his Father’s name. ​

It is the desire of every Witness of Jehovah to do the same.—Matt. 6:9.​

 

[mee]

I was wondeing, mee, if your five thousand three hundred and ninety posts have resulted in any e-conversions?

If not, should you not be outdoors, going from house to house? Just look what that did for Obama.

No disrepect intended.



Learner

mee has just got back from the door to door work , and i am still bubbling up

mees loyalty to Jehovah, and mees maintaining my integrity to him is also shown by my sharing the good news from God’s Word, the Bible, with others.



Knowing the truth, mee feels just as Jeremiah did when he said,


"In my heart it proved to be like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I got tired of holding in, and I was unable to endure it." (Jer. 20:9)


i am unable to hold it in i just have to give it out

 

[mee]

I was wondeing, mee, if your five thousand three hundred and ninety posts have resulted in any e-conversions?





Learner

it seems lots of seed is being scattered around , who knows where that seed will fall .

"In the morning sow your seed and until the evening do not let your hand rest; for you are not knowing where this will have success." (Ecclesiastes 11:6)

 

[mee]

holy spirit a force in motion

 

[Dream]

I was wondeing, mee, if your five thousand three hundred and ninety posts have resulted in any e-conversions?

If not, should you not be outdoors, going from house to house? Just look what that did for Obama.

No disrepect intended.



Learner

Perhaps some posts are about keeping the sheep in rather than bringing in more.

 

[leastone]

One of the ways the Holy Spirit works in my life is often quite obvious in the things that present itself to me during the course of a day. If I attend to these, I find that they invariably offer what is needed. Often, however, the real significance or contribution of an item or event is only seen in retrospect

The first extract below (1) is what I read early this morning when I picked up a book to read a paragraph or two while seated you know where.

The second one (2) came to my inbox later in the day as today’s Inspirational Quote.

And this evening, while browsing the web, I stumbled upon an article that contained a paragraph (3) that just spoke to me, and at the same time seemed to tie together some thoughts expressed in this tread. It is from a review* of the book Integrity, by Stephen L. Carter.

(1). "Man is taught by the Lord through the Word and doctrine and preaching from it, thus immediately by the Lord alone.
[...]
To be taught from the Word, then, is to be taught by the Lord Himself. For it means that one is taught from good itself and truth itself or from love itself and wisdom itself, and, as we have said, these are the Word.

But everyone is taught according to an understanding agreeing with his love; what goes beyond this does not remain.

That this teaching is done mediately through preaching does not take away the immediacy.

Inevitably the Word is taught mediately by parents, teachers, preachers, books and particularly by reading. Still it is not taught by them but by the Lord through them. Preachers, aware of this, say that they speak not from themselves but from the spirit of God and that all truth like all good is from God.

They can speak it and bring it to the understanding of many, but not to anyone's heart; and what is not in the heart passes away from the understanding; by "heart" a man's love is meant.

From this it is plain that man is led and taught by the Lord alone and immediately by Him when he is taught from the Word. This is a supreme arcanum of angelic wisdom." (ES Divine Providence 171, 172)

(2). Faith involves not only knowledge of all the things that the doctrine of faith embraces and the acknowledgment of them; it is first and foremost obedience to everything that doctrine teaches. The primary point that it teaches for men’s obedience is love of the Lord and love of the neighbor. (ES AC 3637)

(3). “..Carter understands integrity as having the courage of one's convictions.
[…]
More precisely, however, he describes integrity in terms of three characteristics: (1) One must take pains to try to discern what is right or wrong. (2) One must be willing to shape one's actions in accord with that discernment, even when it is difficult or painful to do so. (3) One must be willing to acknowledge publicly what one is doing.

In short, a person of integrity must be reflective, steadfast, trustworthy-and whole. 'A person of integrity . . . is a whole person, a person somehow undivided.'"

----------

What is interesting is that from two totally different sources the idea of proper acknowledgement presented itself, as part of the completion of the process of making knowledge one's own, and becoming "whole," in that such acknowledgement needs to find expression in love; that it is to be willed because it is loved. For it to "remain," it has to find its place in the heart.

Respectfully,

Learner

* Reviewed by Gilbert Meilaender
Gilbert Meilaender, Copyright (c) 1996 First Things 63 (May 1996): 49-71.
Books In Review: Integrity

 

[BlaznFattyz]

The spirit is like the wind,
going where He wills,
seeking and dwelling with those who accept Him.
He goes into the secret rooms,
where He convicts you of sin,
and baptizes you with fire,
and circumsizes you in spirit.
He brings you closer to God,
as He knows the intimate things of God,
He also knows you,
and groans deep things to God that trouble your soul;
therefore, we should not grieve Him.
He brings to you fear, understanding and wisdom,
as a witness that Jesus Christ is Lord God Almighty
whose name is above all names,
by which there is no other means of salvation.
He gives us words of praise and song
as we worship in spirit and truth
to the one who created us, forgives us, and receives us,
Our Lord Jesus Christ,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[17th Angel]

I was wondeing, mee, if your five thousand three hundred and ninety posts have resulted in any e-conversions?

If not, should you not be outdoors, going from house to house? Just look what that did for Obama.

No disrepect intended.



Learner

Jw actually avoid interfaith movements.... Mee is the only exception I know... And, I know many, many JW's...... lol.

 

[mee]

Jw actually avoid interfaith movements.... Mee is the only exception I know... And, I know many, many JW's...... lol.

would you say that mee takes on board the beliefs of the other religions, or do i stick to what the bible teaches inline with JEHOVAHS WITNESSES ? i think you will find that i do not mix my worship i just give out what the bible REALLY TEACHES

Rev. 18:4, 5: "I heard another voice out of heaven say: ‘Get out of her, my people, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven, and God has called her acts of injustice to mind.’"


yes this site is full of people from all different religions , just the same way that the houses i visit are full of people from all different religions ,but it does not stop mee from knocking on their door to give out GOODNEWS.


but i do not take on board the mixing of religious beliefs i stick to what the bible REALLY teaches