Purpose of life for atheists/agnostics ?

[IowaGuy]

Hello, have been lurking for a while, first post. My background is I grew up in strong Southern Baptist family and have spent last 20 years since leaving for college learning about other religious beliefs and seeking truth. (Roommates freshman year were atheist, agnostic, and Buddhist, quite a shock coming from my sheltered upbringing!). Engineering educational background and consider myself rational and free thinker. I guide my life by reason & scientific method, have strong agnostic leanings. I recognize and respect that religion plays a large part in many people’s lives and helps them find social acceptance (their Church family) and peace of mind with death and other uncertainties. However, my biggest beef with Christianity is that I find the New Testament concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God to be inconsistent with all the random suffering I see in this world.

This brings me to the topic of my post. Recently my cousin died a tragic death at 16 years of age which has brought tremendous suffering to his family and all of my relatives that knew him well. This event has caused me to examine my core beliefs in more detail.

I would really appreciate your views on the following:

1.) Does one need to believe in an afterlife to have meaningful purpose in life?

2.) For those who do not believe in or are unsure of the existence of an afterlife, what do you consider the purpose of human life?

Many Christians proclaim that one cannot have purpose in life without belief in an eternal afterlife. In reading the archives of this forum I came across an atheist’s statement that his life has no more purpose than does a grain of sand. While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, it doesn’t exactly make one want to hop out of bed in the morning with a spring in their step!

Hoping to get some food for thought from both theists and atheists in this forum, thanks!

 

[Gatekeeper]

Hello, have been lurking for a while, first post. My background is I grew up in strong Southern Baptist family and have spent last 20 years since leaving for college learning about other religious beliefs and seeking truth. (Roommates freshman year were atheist, agnostic, and Buddhist, quite a shock coming from my sheltered upbringing!). Engineering educational background and consider myself rational and free thinker. I guide my life by reason & scientific method, have strong agnostic leanings. I recognize and respect that religion plays a large part in many people’s lives and helps them find social acceptance (their Church family) and peace of mind with death and other uncertainties. However, my biggest beef with Christianity is that I find the New Testament concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God to be inconsistent with all the random suffering I see in this world.

This brings me to the topic of my post. Recently my cousin died a tragic death at 16 years of age which has brought tremendous suffering to his family and all of my relatives that knew him well. This event has caused me to examine my core beliefs in more detail.

I would really appreciate your views on the following:

1.) Does one need to believe in an afterlife to have meaningful purpose in life?

2.) For those who do not believe in or are unsure of the existence of an afterlife, what do you consider the purpose of human life?

Many Christians proclaim that one cannot have purpose in life without belief in an eternal afterlife. In reading the archives of this forum I came across an atheist’s statement that his life has no more purpose than does a grain of sand. While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, it doesn’t exactly make one want to hop out of bed in the morning with a spring in their step!

Hoping to get some food for thought from both theists and atheists in this forum, thanks!

Great first post!! Welcome to IO!

The suffering in the world is a tough subject to tackle if one views God to be all knowing, all powerful, and loving. I prefer to view God as our sustainer. He provides all we need to live and to live abundantly, but we are responsible for grabbing hold of the things that produce an abundant life. The wheels of life have been set in motion, but mankind is still in the early stages of development. We are making progress, but it is slow going for many of us.

To answer your questions directly: I find life to hold more meaning when I think less of an afterlife. I think we are here, our purpose in life, is to make the world a better place for future generations. I derive great pleasure in this thought; the thought of my efforts helping Gods Kingdom manifest on earth ... Even if I am unable to see it (The Promised Land) for myself.

MLK’s “Mountaintop” speech comes to mind. He saw hope for mankind, and just as he made peace with not seeing the promised land in his lifetime, he desired only to do Gods will, so must we. I too see the glory of the coming of the Lord, and it is truly a magnificent thing to witness.

I say keep faith in mankind, and never lose sight of the "Kingdom" Jesus spoke of. “Look, I tell you, lift up your eyes, and see that the fields are white for harvest. Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together. For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you did not labor. Others have labored, and you have entered into their labor.”

Rejoice knowing that our labors will help fulfill the promise. The time is now, and the world ripe. Our labors, or rather that which we sow today, will one day be reaped by our descendants, whereby they will enter into OUR labors just as we are reaping the efforts of those who came before us. Let your labors be for the Kingdom on earth. Do it for our future generations taking no thought for self; labor for the human race, for our children, and for our children’s children. NOT a bad way to approach life (IMO).


[youtube]n6yZ2YrKPlI[/youtube]


James

 

[Saltmeister]

However, my biggest beef with Christianity is that I find the New Testament concept of an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God to be inconsistent with all the random suffering I see in this world.

Random suffering to me has got little to do with God IMO unless we make it important. Because our existence here is temporary, it doesn't actually matter in the long term. Our suffering has more to do with our experience of this world. I, like everyone else am condemned to live in the prison of this experience.

1.) Does one need to believe in an afterlife to have meaningful purpose in life?

No.

2.) For those who do not believe in or are unsure of the existence of an afterlife, what do you consider the purpose of human life?

Because I fit in the dreaded category of "believer," I can't answer this question. I personally hate the label because of its political connotations.

In reading the archives of this forum I came across an atheist’s statement that his life has no more purpose than does a grain of sand.

I agree with that atheist. You have to make up your own purpose or choose an off-the-shelf, specially made, marketed and manufactured one.

While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, it doesn’t exactly make one want to hop out of bed in the morning with a spring in their step!

You need to stimulate yourself. The mental state of humans is driven by hormones. Get your dopamine and serotonin going.

 

[Snoopy]

Hi IG,

A free thinking and rational Guy, huh?!

1. No.

2. I can only describe my purpose. It is to try to live an authentic life, whilst the universe is experiencing itself through this little and temporary process called Snoopy. Nothing has intrinsic, objective meaning, value or purpose. They are constructs of mind.

 

[seattlegal]

Many Christians proclaim that one cannot have purpose in life without belief in an eternal afterlife. In reading the archives of this forum I came across an atheist’s statement that his life has no more purpose than does a grain of sand. While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, it doesn’t exactly make one want to hop out of bed in the morning with a spring in their step!

Hoping to get some food for thought from both theists and atheists in this forum, thanks!

Nothing to look forward to? Do you truly appreciate a wonderously great cup of coffee?

Find the sense of wonderment you had as a child, and cultivate your sense of appreciation, and you will see much to look forward to and put that spring back in your step!

 

[Snoopy]

Care for some cantuccini with that?

 

[Saltmeister]

the universe is experiencing itself through this little and temporary process called Snoopy.

I didn't know I was living in/part of Snoopy during all this time.

 

[Snoopy]

I didn't know I was living in/part of Snoopy during all this time.

That's why you come here - to learn

PS if you start to feel a little breathless shortly don't be alarmed; I'm going out for a run... get those hormones secreting...

 

[Paladin]

The death of a family member can bring up some real existential issues, Iowaguy, and spending some time paying attention to that might be helpful. Grieving itself is part of the human experience and therefore part of our purpose.
But aside from that there is the idea that we are "given" a purpose by God and must struggle to fulfill that in this lifetime. I find this idea somewhat hurtful because one can spend a lifetime in a fruitless search for this something which is nothing more than a subtle ego game.
You are born with many gifts and talents that can unfold over a lifetime, and sharing these gifts with the world can be very rewarding. The relationships you cultivate with your family, friends and community allow you to explore much about yourself as well.
This has brought me quite a bit of satisfaction and happiness over the years.
Sure there is the higher truth of selfless existence, of oneness, of there being no intrinsic meaning in life, but there is also a dualistic existence we are living as well. The old saying about you "have to be somebody before you are nobody" applies here.
I have always loved Thoreau's exhortation to "live deeply" because for me it exemplifies our purpose.

 

[Saltmeister]

But aside from that there is the idea that we are "given" a purpose by God and must struggle to fulfill that in this lifetime. I find this idea somewhat hurtful because one can spend a lifetime in a fruitless search for this something which is nothing more than a subtle ego game.

I think humans are just too smart for that.

If I say, "Paladin! Go and walk over to that corner in the wall." Paladin fulfills his purpose when he has walked over to the corner in the wall. It is pretty easy to walk over to that corner. In order for Paladin not to fall apart, disintegrate and die, I am going to have to keep stimulating him with more instructions.

Go walk over to the second corner. To the third corner. Back to the first corner. Open the door and exit the house. Start taking a walk in the garden. Go into the garage, turn on the engine and drive.

Go to the local supermarket and buy some food. Bring it home and start eating. Turn on the television and get some entertainment. Go to sleep for ten hours, wake up and go to work.

Work hard for that promotion, get an increase in your salary and get closer to affording that dream home.

Look at what everyone else is doing and try to compete with them.

 

[Paladin]

I think humans are just too smart for that.

If I say, "Paladin! Go and walk over to that corner in the wall." Paladin fulfills his purpose when he has walked over to the corner in the wall. It is pretty easy to walk over to that corner. In order for Paladin not to fall apart, disintegrate and die, I am going to have to keep stimulating him with more instructions.

Go walk over to the second corner. To the third corner. Back to the first corner. Open the door and exit the house. Start taking a walk in the garden. Go into the garage, turn on the engine and drive.

Go to the local supermarket and buy some food. Bring it home and start eating. Turn on the television and get some entertainment. Go to sleep for ten hours, wake up and go to work.

Work hard for that promotion, get an increase in your salary and get closer to affording that dream home.

Look at what everyone else is doing and try to compete with them.

I wish they were Salty, I really do. But what you have outlined here isn't far off from what many people do.
There are so many churches and books out there that tell people that God has a plan for their lives and many get pretty hung up looking for their "purpose"

I'm glad you aren't one of them.

 

[Lunitik]

I think a few important return questions are:

1) Does an afterlife really provide meaning for existence?

2) What exactly is the purpose of that afterlife?

3) Does life require a purpose for you to enjoy the gift of it?

 

[Dream]

This brings me to the topic of my post. Recently my cousin died a tragic death at 16 years of age which has brought tremendous suffering to his family and all of my relatives that knew him well. This event has caused me to examine my core beliefs in more detail.

Cause and effect can't tell us the meaning of our existence. Thank you for sharing about your cousin by-the-way. Along with these others I'm sorry for your loss. I think that a sixteen year old's life is just as meaningful as someone that lives to be a hundred and not meaningless at all. I can't prove there is meaning, but I can suggest that the meaning of our lives would be incomprehensible. There is no way to compare which life is more meaningful than another.

Talking about meaning its easy to get fixated on cause and effect determinism (which makes it seem like we are just cogs in a clock so that more turns seem more meaningful than fewer turns). We accomplish Y by doing X, and so our lives are deterministic time-based. Its easy to assume meaning is deterministic, too; but determinism only works on the small scale. Every cause must be an effect of a previous cause, but working backward through causes of causes you must eventually stop providing causes and assume a beginning or an 'Ultimate cause'. Assuming an ultimate cause begs the same question that determinism is trying to answer: "What is the cause?" Instead of providing an answer, determinism avoids the question of the meaning of life. There can be meaning, but it isn't dependent upon time which is just determinism. We as time based creatures only understand determinism, so the non-deterministic meaning of our lives may be a little much to understand.

 

[Saltmeister]

I wish they were Salty, I really do. But what you have outlined here isn't far off from what many people do.
There are so many churches and books out there that tell people that God has a plan for their lives and many get pretty hung up looking for their "purpose"

I'm glad you aren't one of them.

Ok, here's the thing ..... You got me thinking. It's not that I will never do that (never say never). In ten years time I could be doing something "bad" like taking drugs, committing murder, wife-beating, abusing little kids ..... or the dreaded thing you have mentioned like ........writing books about God having a plan for your life.

You're right and I agree. I have just heard people saying this too often. Pretty soon, you get used to it. The dopamine levels go down again. Your brain, which is an organic system, becomes overstimulated with this idea, turns off and starts becoming resistant to it. You start saying, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, blah blah blah."

Too many books about marriage, divorce, dating, weight loss, etc. Too many people saying, "you were made to be married and have kids! Marriage is between a man and a woman! This was God's design!"

But hey look, there are 6 billion people on the planet already and they are using up too many resources. I also think people today have a fulfillment-contentment crisis. The threshold for satisfaction is increasing. I don't think we can all live this way. Do we really need more babies? The pro-marriage and pro-reproduction ideology is just unsustainable considering the lifestyles of today's people. Why do people want to get married and have kids today? Are they trying to prove something to society?

I think more in macroscopic terms about the entire human race. I think I might be dabbling in an eschatology -- the destiny (not purpose) of the human race.

I wonder if the human race is on an unavoidable path. All our collective choices are leading us to toward something we cannot avoid. All the world's governments, corporations, economies and armies will not be able to avoid it. Nobody will be able to stop it. It is inevitable. Nobody could have seen it coming. There have been prophecies about it, but people either didn't believe it, or could not have imagined things playing out this way. The question is whether this is good or bad.

Consider that we are destroying the environment. Consider that we still have nuclear weapons. Consider that we fear another world war coming -- possibly between the USA and China. Consider that we have not achieved world peace.

We were warned about climate change, but the problem is too big to resolve. There are too many skeptics. I think we are wasting time debating the issue. But to be civil, we must accommodate the skeptics. The result is inaction and indecision. Corporate and economic interests and people's consumption patterns therefore lead us to the unavoidable destiny of a catastrophic end to the human race. It starts with bickering between the major powers and eventually war. Nobody is willing to lose or compromise and so we will kill each other.

Some people expect that something will happen on 21st December 2012. There will be natural disasters and a solar flare that will destroy much of the world population.

What is an even more frightening scenario is a man-made disaster -- deliberate sabotage that will lead to a massive political, social and economic upheaval. Some say there is a group of Illuminati manipulating and plotting world events. The 9/11 attacks of the world trade centres may have been one of these plots -- to trigger Islamophobia enabling Western governments to pass laws that will eventually allow them to transform into a totalitarian regimes. Another possible conspiracy are the SARS and swine flu outbreaks. Someone is experimenting with biological weapons and spreading them in society to see how much panic will be caused.

There is one more -- the global financial crisis. How could so many countries be in financial trouble? How could so many governments be so stupid as to let this happen? How could Americans be so stupid as to create the subprime mortgage crisis? How could there be so much relentless borrowing and lending? It's possible that someone let this happen deliberately -- so that the whole world would be confronted with a huge problem. This is a good way to create fear and control.

Those advocating this scenario suggest that these Illuminati are working for superhuman agents. These superhuman agents want to create widespread fear in the world population. This will probably help the transformation toward totalitarian governments. Fear will make humans easier to control.

They say that it will serve to stop humans from realising they are far more powerful than they think -- that we are really angelic beings that have taken human form and have forgotten many of our former abilities.

The release of nuclear weapons will make most of the planet uninhabitable. It will be necessary perhaps for some kind of divine intervention -- maybe a messiah.

The miracles that Jesus performed are said to be a sign that heaven was breaking in. Will we need heaven to break in again? Is this why we need a messiah, to save us from radioactivity and toxic waste?

What will allow us to escape the destruction of the planet?

The catastrophe may force all world religions to integrate, co-operate and work together. Will Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Bahai, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. be integrated in the nick of time? I see that as a possibility and have a theory on that (which I cannot discuss in detail here).

The Seven Noahide Laws in Judaism allows the possibility of Gentiles being integrated into a Jewish social and communal system. The reported emergence of miracle workers in Hasidic Judaism is an interesting development. If we do face a worldwide catastrophe that threatens the human race, will all the world's people be saved by a huge miracle?

The final moments of the human race may be spent gathering and integrating people into this community.

 

[Paladin]

Salty,
The more I study psychology, Neuroscience, Religion, and the workings of my own mind I am convinced that under it all the Human Race really are good people, and that what you see around you is the culmination of erroneous thinking, a "crisis of perception" if you will.
Further, I think that the only way to affect the world is to first cultivate within ourselves the highest virtues we can find and offer that to the world.
Maybe it would help to read the Desiderata one more time.

 

[wil]

Loss of resources? Lack mentality, the world is an abundant place. Man is ever adapting to every reality.

Goodness??? These are the most peaceful years we have ever seen since the dawn of civilization....sure in quantity it is high, but in percentage of the population the world has never seen a more peaceful fifty years. And as a people, we are more caring, more concerned for our fellow man, and human rights, and animal rights and for our planet than we ever have been.

I've got more miles on my thumb that I can count. I've gone coast to coast many times and plan to get a few more in....I spend more time on couches and beds when I hitchhike than I do on the side of the road in my sleeping bag....I get more meals bought for me than folks will let me buy for them....

I think the big difference is this electronic screen you are looking at right now...we know more about what goes on around the world today than we knew about what happened 100 miles away from our home 50 years ago. It makes something seem all pervasive....but what do we truly know about what goes on in the world? Only the bad crap. Got a bus bombing in Israel, give it 3 minutes of gore to feed the masses, got starving children or women being raped or a ship jacked....tell the world about it.

Face it there were billions of encounters of human on human in those same locations, there were doctors taking care of the indigent, people feeding the poor, people teaching others a trade, and millions leading blind people out of danger of traffic....all that does not make the news.

 

[wil]

Hello, have been lurking for a while, first post.

Namaste and welcome brother

1.) Does one need to believe in an afterlife to have meaningful purpose in life?

Have you asked these fellers?

Roommates freshman year were atheist, agnostic, and Buddhist, quite a shock coming from my sheltered upbringing

You lived with them for a period of time, did there lives seem without meaning?

Now I believe we should live for a purpose greater than ourselves, a passion to leave a legacy, by teaching, or assisting, or creating...something that will live generations beyond our lives....but neither G!d nor an afterlife is required for that to be thought of or accomplished.

2.) For those who do not believe in or are unsure of the existence of an afterlife, what do you consider the purpose of human life?

Who is 'sure' of an afterlife? I mean many of us live as if. Some of us live as if under threat. These lives are almost held ransom in that regard.

Many Christians proclaim that one cannot have purpose in life without belief in an eternal afterlife. In reading the archives of this forum I came across an atheist’s statement that his life has no more purpose than does a grain of sand.

Would it be too obtuse for me to say that grains of sand have purpose?

While I don’t necessarily disagree with that statement, it doesn’t exactly make one want to hop out of bed in the morning with a spring in their step!

While I am a Christian, I can say I know many folks with a spring in thier step that are not.

Hoping to get some food for thought from both theists and atheists in this forum, thanks!

Looking forward to more discussion, thanx for the topic!

 

[IowaGuy]

But aside from that there is the idea that we are "given" a purpose by God and must struggle to fulfill that in this lifetime. I find this idea somewhat hurtful because one can spend a lifetime in a fruitless search for this something

I can relate after Sunday School teachers telling me, for the first 18 years of my life, that God has a plan for me and everything happens for a reason. And of course, they taught all us kids that we'd go to hell if we don't believe in God/Jesus. My 5 year-old nephew (Southern Baptist parents - my sister) recently informed me that I'm going to hell since I'm not a Christian anymore... These ideas start at a young age!

I have always loved Thoreau's exhortation to "live deeply" because for me it exemplifies our purpose.

Thoreau is one of my favorite modern philosophers, every time I re-read his essays I pick up new ideas I missed the last time that I read them. I'm a big gardener so I really like reading about his experiments in Walden with growing beans on a large scale with hand tools I find some of my best time for meditation while in the garden...

 

[IowaGuy]

I find life to hold more meaning when I think less of an afterlife. I think we are here, our purpose in life, is to make the world a better place for future generations.
James

I agree with that, thanks for the reminder. It is a constant challenge for me to keep my mind focused on living in the present moment!

 

[wil]

they taught all us kids that we'd go to hell if we don't believe in God/Jesus. My 5 year-old nephew (Southern Baptist parents - my sister) recently informed me that I'm going to hell since I'm not a Christian anymore... These ideas start at a young age!...

You mean these ideas are inflicted on our children at a young age.