Suicide in the name of Religion

[Netti-Netti]

Now we're making progress:

 

[GlorytoGod]

has anyone mentioned suicide as a religious practice ? are there not some Buddhist monks who disembowel the themselves at the moment of enlightenment ?

 

[Resigned]

Now we're making progress:

You have certainly maintained your typical low standards of post content. Spam and more spam, thread after thread.

 

[seattlegal]

I wonder if you are offered paradise and virgins for kitting out kids with downs syndrome or similar mental incapacities and sending them to blow themselves up in the fruit market? No doubt there is some passage in the Koran that will justify it.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the perceived religious rewards that are promised to mass murderers in furtherance of their crimes. In the article published by the telegraph.co.uk there is no indication that personal glory played any part in the decision of the mass murderer to commit their heinous act. What the article does indicate is that an audience with the religions` inventor and other rewards in heaven is the result of a specific behavior.

I don't think you can disassociate a behavior so closely linked to the idolization of a religious figure (and to include rewards in heaven in exchange for a specific behavior). When the act is committed in furtherance of achieving goals promoted by the religion, the act is a function of the religion by definition.

This would be the mask that this virulent strain hides behind that I mentioned in this post. Islam is not the only mask it has hidden behind, either:

Their being dead might pose some difficulties in that respect.


I would say that it cannot be attributed to any of the many ideologies that this phenomenon masks itself with, hides behind, and/or disguises itself as. It can be seen lurking within various ideologies and cultural groups, as well as widely-spread geographical locations, throughout mankind's history. This phenomenon reminds me of a "shell game" in its manifestations.
Societies with a well-developed hierarchy and an authoritarian bent seem to be more vulnerable to the manifestation of this phenomenon than other societies, imo. A twisted sense of pride and "honor" derived solely from the place an individual or group occupies within this hierarchy, and the perception of losing power, status, or "honor" by the possible threat of a change of status within the hierarchy might be a motivational force for these so-called "honor killings."

Something to explore.

The committed acts were not perpetrated for personal aggrandizement or for monetary gains. They were committed in exchange for rewards that are promised in connection with the religions proscriptions. The religious motivations could not be more clearly defined.

Wouldn't this promised of favored status just be a continuation of worship of the hierarchical structure rather than worship of God? (i.e., idolatry. Like I wrote earlier, it's like a shell game. Veneration of an empty shell is idolatry, is it not?)

 

[Resigned]

This would be the mask that this virulent strain hides behind that I mentioned in this post. Islam is not the only mask it has hidden behind, either:

I’ll offer the point that there is no mask that the ideology is hiding behind. The policies that engender the virulent hatreds which fuel the continuing slaughter in the Middle East didn’t pop up out of nowhere. They are the product of an ideology that creates and nurtures the conflicts we see today. Scared women hiding in their homes or under a shapeless black sack, gun battles as conflict resolution, and a socio-political infrastructure that preaches hatred and war against anyone in the out-group.



Many are going to suggest that the rampant abuse of human rights, anti-Semitism, religious intolerance, violent Islamic terror, economic stagnation, illiteracy, gender apartheid, and corrupt totalitarian regimes which are routine in the Arab/Moslem world are all the direct result of someone else’s fault. But let’s be honest, one only has to look to the source material that moslems revere as the word of god to see where these policies derive.

Wouldn't this promised of favored status just be a continuation of worship of the hierarchical structure rather than worship of God? (i.e., idolatry. Like I wrote earlier, it's like a shell game. Veneration of an empty shell is idolatry, is it not?)

I would disagree. The hierarchical structure is derived from the source material that moslems will claim was (allegedly), “revealed” by god. This sort of argumentation is merely an attempt to divest oneself of any responsibility from the consequences of the action of the ideology. Just because " only a few thousand moslems” actually commit mass murder doesn't mean the refusal of the Moslem world to reign in the mass murderers in their midst is in anyway mitigated. The people who are committing calculated mass murder the world over are Moslem. They believed mohammed was a prophet and they based their laws on the koran. That makes them moslem even if others would prefer those labels were not attributed. I think it’s important to understand that islam, like all religions (both current and extinct), is subject to interpretation.

 

[c0de]

I would disagree. The hierarchical structure is derived from the source material that moslems will claim was (allegedly), “revealed” by god. This sort of argumentation is merely an attempt to divest oneself of any responsibility from the consequences of the action of the ideology. Just because " only a few thousand moslems” actually commit mass murder doesn't mean the refusal of the Moslem world to reign in the mass murderers in their midst is in anyway mitigated. The people who are committing calculated mass murder the world over are Moslem. They believed mohammed was a prophet and they based their laws on the koran. That makes them moslem even if others would prefer those labels were not attributed. I think it’s important to understand that islam, like all religions (both current and extinct), is subject to interpretation.

What's the body count of Muslims versus the body count of
American soldiers? Are the Americans also reading the Quran?
What's their "source material" ?

Many are going to suggest that the rampant abuse of human rights, anti-Semitism, religious intolerance, violent Islamic terror, economic stagnation, illiteracy, gender apartheid, and corrupt totalitarian regimes which are routine in the Arab/Moslem world are all the direct result of someone else’s fault. But let’s be honest, one only has to look to the source material that moslems revere as the word of god to see where these policies derive.

Which Quranic passages do you feel are the cause of all of this?
Please point them out so we can clear your misconceptions.

I’ll offer the point

Anyone can offer a point. The hard part is countering
the objections to it and providing evidence in support of it.

You are not really doing either...

 

[Resigned]

Once again, Resigned, I don't think you can rightly attribute mass-murder/suicide to wanting to please God. Rather, I would say that it is a thirst for glory. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the Columbine suicide murders, clearly were searching for glory (a means by which to be remembered) in their heinous acts. Is this search for glory the atheist means of self-preservation after life ends?

I think it’s false to attribute glory to walking into a crowd of people and immolating oneself in the bright orange flash of a thunderous explosion of charred flesh, bone shards and soft tissue.

One of the Islamic terrorist All-Stars who was convicted in connection with the Bali mass murders was profiled in a piece published by theaustralian.news.com.au. It’s a bracing look at what is being fed to the vacant young minds of the ummah.

You will notice that there is no mention of glory. What Bashir does promote is: “You must be at the front, die as martyrs and all your sins will be forgiven.”

So… let’s think about this. Who forgives sin? Could it be god? Dying as a martyr will, according to Bashir, cause sin to be forgiven.



Bashir urges attacks on 'infidel' Australians

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story...343-601,00.html
Natasha Robinson | March 24, 2008

ISLAMIC cleric Abu Bakar Bashir has returned to his hardline rhetoric with a call for followers to "beat up" Western tourists and for young Muslims to die as martyrs.

In the sermon, organised by an Islamic youth organisation and delivered a few kilometres from the home village of convicted Bali bombers Amrozi and Mukhlas, Bashir likened tourists in Bali to "worms, snakes, maggots", and specifically referred to the immorality of Australian infidels.

The address was caught on video by an Australian university student.

"The youth movement here must aspire to a martyrdom death," said the cleric, who was convicted of conspiracy over the 2002 Bali bombings that killed 202 people, including 88 Australians, but was later cleared and released from prison.

"The young must be first at the front line - don't hide at the back. You must be at the front, die as martyrs and all your sins will be forgiven. This is how to achieve forgiveness."

Observers said the sermon's content was a clear indication of what many terrorism academics have noted - that the accused spiritual head of Jemaah Islamiah has been emboldened by his release from prison last year after serving 26 months for conspiracy in relation to the Bali blasts.

 

[c0de]

You will notice that there is no mention of glory. What Bashir does promote is: “You must be at the front, die as martyrs and all your sins will be forgiven.”

Are you seriously suggesting that the rank of martyr is without glory?
Forgiveness of sin, and glory might both be motivations for these kids.
That is not the point. The point is, what does the actual religion say
about the issue? Does it tell its adherents to commit these crimes?
And the answer to that is: no.

You yourself call these kids as having blank minds. That is exactly what
they have. This is exactly what allows them to be lead astray. Is their
case really much different from the American soldiers or Israeli ones
responsible for civilian deaths?

 

[Netti-Netti]

That’s true. But the purpose of the thread was to explore suicide bombing.

I'd still be interested in any information you might have on the subject. So far it seems you are copying and pasting material that has not shed any light on the issues raised in your opening post.

Btw, my research shows that "martyrdom" is not a factor in female suicide bombings.

The people who are committing calculated mass murder the world over are Moslem.

The highest rates of terrorism are in South America, predominantly Catholic countries. The US has one of the highest murder rates in the world - 5.6 murders per 100,000. By comparison, Egypt has a murder rate of 0.4 per 100,000. Egypt's majority religion is Islam. As compared to the US, Egypt appears to be a peaceful place

The US is allegedly a Christian country. I'd be interested in your analysis of the underlying "politico-religious" ideologies or the "interpretations" that would explain the US murder rate.

 

[seattlegal]

Btw, my research shows that "martyrdom" is not a factor in female suicide bombings.

Do tell, please.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Scared women hiding in their homes or under a shapeless black sack

Now this is what I like to see ... total ignorance, at least it explains why your arguments are so incoherent. The thing we are most scared of is the arrogant western ignorance spread about us through western propaganda.

To suggest that my mode of clothing is what defines my thought process, belief system, sexuality or fostering of a rabid desire to murder by suicide bombing is nothing short of western propaganda gone wild.

Rather than making assumptions try actually discussing life, religion, hopes, dreams, etc with the person under the black clothing (and I am not talking about young impressionable girls that hang out on the net) and you will quickly see that we are intelligent, courageous and much less inclined to make silly sweeping statements about people based on their mode of dress.

Many are going to suggest that the rampant abuse of human rights, anti-Semitism, religious intolerance, violent Islamic terror, economic stagnation, illiteracy, gender apartheid, and corrupt totalitarian regimes which are routine in the Arab/Moslem world are all the direct result of someone else’s fault. But let’s be honest, one only has to look to the source material that moslems revere as the word of god to see where these policies derive.

As I have been away from CR for a long time please could you let me know how long you have lived in the middle east for and which Muslim country you lived in ... I assume you have lived here among the Muslim population as you seem to be so set in your opinions about the ME.

I think it’s important to understand that islam, like all religions (both current and extinct), is subject to interpretation.

Who ever said that Islam is not subject to interpretation? Our scholars have been interpreting and re-interpreting Islam for 1400 years and there are many issues over which scholars simply do not agree.

However, your assertion that a minority of Muslims commiting outrageous acts of violence is proof positive of an endemic system all Muslims adhere to is just vile, uneducated and quite frankly plain wrong.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Do tell, please.

I get the impression that you feel there is no info on this one way or the other.

What do you think it would take to show that someone's suicide was driven by religious motives?

 

[seattlegal]

I get the impression that you feel there is no info on this one way or the other.

No, I want to know what you've found via your research.

What do you think it would take to show that someone's suicide was driven by religious motives?

A heck of a lot of work, for one. Correctly identifying a factor that might be disguising itself as something else would require some careful scrutiny, and then putting everything in the correct context according to the perception of the suicidal radical would make the task even more tricky.

 

[Netti-Netti]

No, I want to know what you've found via your research.

So you're not interested enough to do your own research?

A heck of a lot of work, for one. Correctly identifying a factor that might be disguising itself as something else would require some careful scrutiny, and then putting everything in the correct context according to the perception of the suicidal radical would make the task even more tricky.

I hate to say it, but that's very well put.

 

[seattlegal]

So you're not interested enough to do your own research?

Would you prefer the sardines that I'm considering throwing at you to be oil packed, or with mustard sauce?

I hate to say it, but that's very well put.

 

[Netti-Netti]

Would you prefer the sardines that I'm considering throwing at you to be oil packed, or with mustard sauce?

No thanks. I'm sitting here in my tux.

Regarding suicide bombers,

Their being dead might pose some difficulties in that respect.

True: being without self-report information is a distinct disadvantage. Propagandist try to capitalize on these ambiguities in their effort to promote their biases.

However, your assertion that a minority of Muslims commiting outrageous acts of violence is proof positive of an endemic system all Muslims adhere to is just vile, uneducated and quite frankly plain wrong.

The focus on dead suiciders is really disgraceful. Sadly the dead are perfect for propaganda purposes: the propagandist can attribute all kinds of evil ideologies to a dead person who is not around to defend themselves. Very convenient but also a dead giveaway for cowardice and intellectual laziness.

Speaking of context. In one study on Chechen women, the vast majority (73%) became radicalized as a result of war trauma. As in the case of Palestinian suicide attempters, revenge was at the top of the list of motives for the Chenchen women. The study came from Anne Speckhard's site. She's a forensic psychologist. Here's the link.
http://www.annespeckhard.com/publications/black_widows.pdf

 

[Muslimwoman]

asalam aleykum Netti Netti

There is no doubt that some people do these things in the mistaken belief that our faith calls for it and even rewards it. You just have to read Ed Husains book The Islamist to see how these people's minds are twisted into that kind of thinking .... despite his religious teachers telling him that his newly taught ideology was unIslamic.

War trauma, frustration, revenge and a strong desire to defend other Muslims can all be factors in places like Palestine but that does not explain why suicide bombers attack other Muslims in places like Pakistan.

I remember watching a documentary speaking to a failed bomber in either Pakistan or Afghanistan (can't remember which) and the people that "selected" him as a bomber told him he didn't have to do anything, Allah Himself would detonate the bomb ... of course it was just a radio controlled device but it shows how religion can be used to convince these people.

 

[seattlegal]

asalam aleykum Netti Netti

There is no doubt that some people do these things in the mistaken belief that our faith calls for it and even rewards it. You just have to read Ed Husains book The Islamist to see how these people's minds are twisted into that kind of thinking .... despite his religious teachers telling him that his newly taught ideology was unIslamic.

War trauma, frustration, revenge and a strong desire to defend other Muslims can all be factors in places like Palestine but that does not explain why suicide bombers attack other Muslims in places like Pakistan.

I remember watching a documentary speaking to a failed bomber in either Pakistan or Afghanistan (can't remember which) and the people that "selected" him as a bomber told him he didn't have to do anything, Allah Himself would detonate the bomb ... of course it was just a radio controlled device but it shows how religion can be used to convince these people.

Another technique employed by those playing this shell game. Where is the Holy Spirit in this? Ask this question honestly, and you'll see that this mask of religion utilized by these deceivers is only an empty shell.

 

[Muslimwoman]

Another technique employed by those playing this shell game. Where is the Holy Spirit in this? Ask this question honestly, and you'll see that this mask of religion utilized by these deceivers is only an empty shell.

A very empty shell. The problem is how to combat it, when young people go looking for a place to study religion they tend not to find a sign on the door saying we teach hate and not really Islam but a warped form of it in order to achieve our political aims.

 

[Tao_Equus]

I see so much denial here it makes me sick.